DAC Opinions

Hi All.....

As my ears are desiring for more oompphhhh from my CDP (NAD), as such I am seriously considering a "DAC" add on. Have done some reading and walked around to get a feel of whats out there and have come across "DAC's" from the establish side of the divide and the emergence of DAC's from the other half of the divide.

Which is fast becoming a force to be reckon.

What are your views of these "DAC's" coming out of the emerging part of the divide ?

Views are much appreciated for my purchasing decision.

cheers

here u might find the comparisons about the established brand and the so called emerging brand.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/dacmagic-vs-audio-gd-dac19-dsp1-472857/

Hi Chua...

Thanks for the link.

Do you own a DAC from the emerging market ?

cheers

I own before the DAC 100, DAC 19MK3 and REF 1.

Hi Chua....

What do you own now and what the comparison.

Also where did you get the DAC's ?

Cheers

hmmm that dac 19mk3 that looks promising isn't it? yum yum

hi azri....

yeap...yummy....the performance of it.

Now where can i audition the Audio GD ?

Simon of Audio Synthesis carries some emerging markets DAC's, not sure if he carries Audio GD's?

Any other Audio shops ?

Cheers and thank you.

cheers

Got one from kakibok, a fellow forumer.

wingman wrote:hi azri....

yeap...yummy....the performance of it.

Now where can i audition the Audio GD ?

Simon of Audio Synthesis carries some emerging markets DAC's, not sure if he carries Audio GD's?

Any other Audio shops ?

Cheers and thank you.

cheers

http://cgi.ebay.com.my/Audio-gd-DAC-19MK3-DAC-converter-New/360214706081

kakibuku on ebay?

anyone has auditioned beresford tc-7510?
http://fault151.blogspot.com/2009/03/modding-my-beresford-dac.html

Ya that's the guy. I got one of the same from him a few months back. Transaction was smooth & easy through direct bank in.

Regards,
Joe Ling

check the link #21 and #15 of the thread.

It looks like Hype but it never sound hype. If you have Current mode Amplifier, this audio-gd dac can output in current mode and amplified directly by the amp at the end stage. would suggest u get truely balance dac pair with truly balance amplifier.

imagine if your dac is current more, (such as 1541A or the 1704 current sink/source DAC), then you would need IV conversion. again there is lots of debate between IV conversion before and after the DAC.

Hi all.....

Have spoken to a few owners of DAC's from both side of the divide and this is what they have got to say:

1. The establish side has quality ( in all areas), well built, pricey and has better resale value.

and the

2. Emerging market equipment has quality ( certain areas ) and well built ( certain units ), not so pricey and no resale value. But are catching up on the lagging portion.

or

Option

3. Get a used equipment from the establish side but may be lagging in specification, no warranty.or not sure of the condition. Get a new unit from the emerging market with warranty, latest specification and still cheaper from a pricing standpoint.

That's my views after the talk.

Now its boils down to whether one has the cash to flaunt or with limited cash just get the unit from the emerging market.

Now its off to a listening test with the information garnered from here and the talk sessions.

Thanks to all for the contribution and would appreciate more input. ( if willing )

cheers

Wingman,

Important thing is that u have to like it in your system. While money is important, sometimes the high dollar units may not sound as good as the cheaper alternative. It's about synergy & how well the unit match with your system. Unfortunately, in Malaysia, difficult to get audition much less home audition prior to getting something.

Resale value - consider it as a lost investment or sunk cost & you'll be fine. Don't let this cloud your judgement

One should not be too beguiled by named brand. Sometimes these are nothing more than fancy case work. However, some really know their stuff. So, have to learn to read between the lines of reviews & such. Best is word of mouth from trusted friends.

Also, do not be afraid to look at less established brands from the first world countries.

A little bit off tangent here but a good unit with jitter reduction or a clock transplant in your CDP may yield good results as well. My personal experience with a clock upgrade in my old CD63 years ago was nothing short of a revelation.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hi Joe....

Very well said and truly apprecite your views.

And not forgetting the not so helpfull audio dealers who won't answer your queries or entertain you and see the buyers spending power.They would give you a once over as well.

A recent scene was when I enquired about "DAC's" with this "audio dealer" and his response was:

" I have product "A" from the establish divide. As soon as i mentioned products from the emerging markets it was met with dead silence. It's as so that products from the emerging markets are "taboo".

Mind you I have bought audio products from this "bus...." of a dealer. My mistake was thinking that I could build a relationship for my future purchases.

That's where friends, forums and the web come into play.

cheers.

That's always the case with most of the dealers i've dealt with. If you're interested in their products then you're welcome and there's much to chat about. If you have interest in something they don't sell then they give you attitude.

There was one dealer who always welcomed me whether or not I bought from him and he always shared his knowledge with me regardless. He always welcomed me with chinese tea. He was the best i've ever known. Sadly he died. Now I feel a big part of my hifi experience has died too.

that is the difference of buying products from commercial group or from the Enthusiasts group. if u are budget tight, why not consider the old cd player with mods. it can sound so good.

Old CDP's may be great, but I'm always wary of reliability of its optics or whatever life it have left. Its a worry if the spares are rare or obsolete.

I know who you meant bimmerman.......
He shall always be remembered...
Kudos Steve!...

Bimmerman and Zul....

At this period of time, I have not met an audio dealers who is like the person you mentioned. I have not met him (Steve) but sure would have been an eye opener and an experience.

Chua55...

As the components are aged in my CDP, opting for a "Capacitor", "OPAmp" upgrade and "ReClock-ing" ( as mentioned by joe ) would be considered seriously.

Cheers and TQ

What Joeling say is true. I have heard the Octave Electronic modded CD63 and it is really good.

What is done below is the mod clock using audio-gd JZ1 clock and blackgate N and standard thru output power supply decoupling, remove unused parts, some silver cable and damping and OPA SUN.

Wah, another black gate kaki. The biggest different in my marrantz cd94mk1 is with VSE clock upgrade, is a day n night different but don't ask me the cost.

Hi All....

All you guys, thank you for your inputs.

It has given me a sense of which direction to take and enjoy the outcome.

Thank you once again.

cheers

I've always believed that a clock upgrade will lift the performance of DAC or transport to some degree. As always its entirely up to other owners to determine whether its of benefit or not considering the cost of the kit. Its also perhaps I prefer to ensure that I can work the source department best to the limits of its design and hope that the rest of the chain will synergise for my enjoyment and pleasure.
Trouble is established clock kits do cost quite a bit.

With China product, one can get good product at lower costs. Imagine china made 1 ppm XO which was used in the space tech now ended up in the cd player. Well my clock unit is no more than 2 digit.

Hi All....

Out of curiosity, how would these combination sound:

CDP --> DAC --> Tube Buffer --> Integrated Amp

Tube-ey sounding ?

cheers

chua55 wrote:What Joeling say is true. I have heard the Octave Electronic modded CD63 and it is really good.

What is done below is the mod clock using audio-gd JZ1 clock and blackgate N and standard thru output power supply decoupling, remove unused parts, some silver cable and damping and OPA SUN.

is this true???? i have come to discover that a modded CD63 was a complete bust - a big disappointment! i had mine modded too and, just after 2 days worth of listen, i ended up selling it off. according to "him" i've been told that it requires at least 200 hours of run-in for it to run at its optimum level. i later discovered that even after running it at 1000 hours, it really makes no difference whatsoever.

lesson learned.. why spend so much for an unreasonable upgrade? you may as well run a cheap CD ROM with audio outputs, have it hooked up to a normal DAC, and believe me, it's a much better alternative to the above modification.

people shouldnt have to spend hundreds and thousands in RM to improve on a standard equipment. you may think it helps in the 'revamping' process of your equipment but, truth be told, this isn't always the case. i guess ppl are easily bought into the propoganda that a couple of upgrades is better than no upgrades at all, only to find out later that a terrible decision was made on their part. suffice it to say, there are some things are better left untouched.

To all pls upgrade your equipment only if u r experience with it. Always do 1 mod at a time n then wait for 2 weeks to let it run in. After 2 weeks try to put back the stock component n compare, if with mod is better then go ahead if not, put it back to stock. Most of the time , moding a cd player may need to change powercord to balance back the sound. U need to know how to balance your system b4 u can mod your player. If not u may get into troble.

Alex....

Wow, what an episode.

Would this not boil down to types of components used, which area of the CDP and is it an experience person doing the job ?

Two very(x4) experienced techie guys have advices me not to mod any equipment. The least you could do is changing the components to "audio" grade or better make, damping for CDP's, silver circuit board cables.

The only mod that I have done to all my equipments (DIY) :

1. Transformers are resting on rubber mounts
2. Internal damping for my CDP. ( proton door / engine damping material)

cheers

Wingman,
the outcome very much depanding on the equipment u use.

If for me, I will go for

Cd transport >> tube dac or transformer output dac >>> intergrated amp.

noodle88...

that gives you a analog feel, correct me if I am wrong !

Placing the buffer in between the DAC an AMP would give it a Anlog - tubey output. A less expensive route instead of going full tube AMP ? Am i safe to make that assumption.

Another combination is placing the "tube" buffer between the Pre-Amp and Power Amp.

cheers

wingman wrote:
The only mod that I have done to all my equipments (DIY) :

1. Transformers are resting on rubber mounts
2. Internal damping for my CDP. ( proton door / engine damping material)

cheers

wingman,

word of advice:
1. It is not ideal to have the transformers sit on rubber mounts but rather to the body chassis where it is well-earthed.
2. internal damping to your CDP will only result in weakened "air and detail".

a question: what was the result of your aforementioned modification? was it a positive one or a negative one?

I wanted to say this earlier, as there'll obviously many views and opinions amongst forumers on tweaks or mods to their own rig along with contradictions.
I've yet to attempt any internal damping of CDP, DAC or transport save some are already by the manufacturer. To me what is critical in this sense is the heavier the build of the CDP or DAC, its highly possible it'll outperform any much lighter players. Of course there's so many other critical areas within a DAC or CDP that'll have a bearing on sonic quality. Imagine that famed or ongoing Shiragaki clone or whatever it is. Cheap boombox mechanism but fantastically and solidly mounted and puck can amaze the audio community to ecstasy. My 2 sen.

well I happen build a shigaraki clone (no blackgate although) and went kaput.

word of advice:
1. It is not ideal to have the transformers sit on rubber mounts but rather to the body chassis where it is well-earthed.
2. internal damping to your CDP will only result in weakened "air and detail".

a question: what was the result of your aforementioned modification? was it a positive one or a negative one?

This is just a level 1 mode. Another mode would be to use regenerative power supply and separate tranny for diff section with proper sealing.

The result is more than positive. Happen that Sam (tropical audio) was around to 'testify' the sound. Sam is a guy with big no no on 'exotic' cables and mod job. but on this instance the comment is 'the original cd63 sound very cold and lethargic'


It depends on what sound but the mod result in more analog / dynamic / slightly warm to the sound. another obvious difference is the vocal appears to be more forward.

Well earth of the tranny on cdp ? do you earth it?

wingman wrote:noodle88...

that gives you a analog feel, correct me if I am wrong !

Placing the buffer in between the DAC an AMP would give it a Anlog - tubey output. A less expensive route instead of going full tube AMP ? Am i safe to make that assumption.

Another combination is placing the "tube" buffer between the Pre-Amp and Power Amp.

cheers

If budget is a limitation, then putting a tube buffer inbetween your dac n amp may help u to get some valve character in your system. But the tube buffer must be a good ones, a buffer will increase the drive of the dac output.

Pls don't put buffer in between pre n poweramp. No noway, it just don't work that way.....

Hi All....

Diagram on how I mounted the Transformer on a "Round Centre Hole Washers".

( A Diagram would be self explanatory )






Cheers

I tought we should not ground the tranformer core....
If need to ground also, I will not ground it at 2 point. For me I will lift it off the ground.

U should b able to tell the difference in an instant. No need to burn in or otherwise. In 1998, my dealer installed a Trichord Clock 3 in my 63KI & I was shocked at the difference the clock made. Lifting of a veil was the best description. Amazing. Not subtle at all. I'm sure an AB with a mod & unmodded unit I will be able to tell 100% of the time.

Since then, many clocks have come into the market...

alex_kff wrote:

chua55 wrote:What Joeling say is true. I have heard the Octave Electronic modded CD63 and it is really good.

What is done below is the mod clock using audio-gd JZ1 clock and blackgate N and standard thru output power supply decoupling, remove unused parts, some silver cable and damping and OPA SUN.

is this true???? i have come to discover that a modded CD63 was a complete bust - a big disappointment! i had mine modded too and, just after 2 days worth of listen, i ended up selling it off. according to "him" i've been told that it requires at least 200 hours of run-in for it to run at its optimum level. i later discovered that even after running it at 1000 hours, it really makes no difference whatsoever.

lesson learned.. why spend so much for an unreasonable upgrade? you may as well run a cheap CD ROM with audio outputs, have it hooked up to a normal DAC, and believe me, it's a much better alternative to the above modification.

people shouldnt have to spend hundreds and thousands in RM to improve on a standard equipment. you may think it helps in the 'revamping' process of your equipment but, truth be told, this isn't always the case. i guess ppl are easily bought into the propoganda that a couple of upgrades is better than no upgrades at all, only to find out later that a terrible decision was made on their part. suffice it to say, there are some things are better left untouched.

Noodle...

The difference now, a rubber washer is placed in between the Tranny and body of the equipment. While the tranny is still maintaing the contact with the body of the equipment via the bolt & nut.

Why, i believe "transformers" have a bit of vibration and the rubber is sort of damping of the vibration. ( a layman's perspective ) Correct me if I am wrong.

The rubber washer gives it a lift as shown in the diagram below:




As for the damping, I have stuck the damping material on the cover, the main body area, CD chasis. ( all internal)

Damping materials from "Btothers".

The above mods did not cost me an arm or a leg either.

For me personally, it's a positive outcome, there is "weight" to the music compared to before the modification.

Cheers

Yes, I also using tap rubber washer to isolate transformer from vibration but my trans is not grounded.

noodle88 wrote:Wah, another black gate kaki. The biggest different in my marrantz cd94mk1 is with VSE clock upgrade, is a day n night different but don't ask me the cost.

VSE Clock can buy you another CDP already brother!

Sswong3374,

If my cd94 without VSE clock, the cdp worth nothing to me. The clock worth to pay a bit more because it's so tham good...

no need VSE, just the Blackgate cap alone costs more than the CDP. sometime i hope if i can bring my cdp and compare to your VSE cd94

mr kakibook, whats ur opinion on dac19 & dac-19dsp1? i made some queries to audio-gd guys on dac-19mk3 & they said its no longer in production.

noodle88 wrote:Sswong3374,

If my cd94 without VSE clock, the cdp worth nothing to me. The clock worth to pay a bit more because it's so tham good...

How much the cost of VSE clock? Cd94 is already good player, what is the improvement of this clock!!

chua55 wrote:no need VSE, just the Blackgate cap alone costs more than the CDP. sometime i hope if i can bring my cdp and compare to your VSE cd94

Anytime bro,

Just let me know the time n place.

kkthen wrote:

noodle88 wrote:Sswong3374,

If my cd94 without VSE clock, the cdp worth nothing to me. The clock worth to pay a bit more because it's so tham good...

How much the cost of VSE clock? Cd94 is already good player, what is the improvement of this clock!!

If I m not wrong, the vse uber clock is rm6k now. It's push my cd94 to a much higher level. Much higher resolution, better staging, better outline n analog.

I heard this vse uber clock make cd player close to TT player, is this true?

noodle....

Won't that clock upgrade cost get you a fairly good combination of DAC and CDP / Transport ?

Either new or used equipment?

cheers

kkthen wrote:I heard this vse uber clock make cd player close to TT player, is this true?

yes, if your set up with the uber is correct n good, u may not want to go for tt. To me tt is something really need time to play with . As a busy person like me, most of my Hifi life is cd although I do have a reasonable good tt setup.
Cheers,