The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio

Please goto the link at below,
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

Any comments?

eugenecctan,
thanks for the link.
Thoroughly enjoyed the article.
A lot of that is my personal observation along this road called hifi.

Me, I just take a day at a time.There's just so much voodoo out there
that I barely take notice anymore.
There was a time when I had a Marantz designed receiver through which I played my Dual turntable,listened to FM & 8 track cassette through a pair of Wharfedale Linton2 speakers(diy from a kit)and thought I was in Hifi nirvana.
Of course, that was more than 30 years ago
There was always voodoo & snake oil even back then.
Now that I'm older,I just enjoy the music.I play whatever I have on hand, with joy in my heart & a song on my lips.
Fascinating, whats' happening in the hifi world though.

Cheers & Shalom.

teleman51

crite lama

Some of the comments makes logical sense. But do bear in mind these sayings:

1. Ignorance is bliss
2. Ignorance does not justify arrogance
3. Everything is relative. What we think is powerful, or fast, will be considered weak, or slow to others (with more exposure or experience).
4. Most important : what we don't know, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or that others also don't know.

In the end, just be happy with our system if we like the sound. If one's pocket is shallow, it certainly helps a lot. But at the same time, do not pass judgement on others who wishes to persue a different approach. Because there's just so much to learn when one is open minded.

To all those who celebrate, a belate happy chinese new year to all.

Well, I'm a skeptic by nature and find it difficult accepting unproven technology or in other words tweaks. For many years I was satisfied with my Tannoy 609 powered by Pioneer A400 and cheapo Sony DVD player linked to an Audio Alchemy V3,0 DAC. Totally happy! Speaker wires? Well as long as you don't exceed 3 meters per side, lamp cord would do. If you exceed 3 meters, a slightly heavier gauge lamp cord would be fine. Power cords? What idiot would spend RM1000 on power cords? Standard PC power cords works best. AC current is AC current no matter what cords you use. AC current does not and simply cannot alter sound in my esteemed opinion. Interconnects? The no name black&red variety. Later I switched to Monster Interlink 400 and guess what??? No worthwhile difference in sound and If I recall correctly, the red&black noname sounded better to my ears. So that was my last tweak for almost 10 years!!!

Then I got me a pair of Minima Amators and people tell me these are best partnered with Krell! Nonsense I said. My Pioneer A400 does a brilliant job. CD player was a Playstation2 with Audio Alchemy DAC. Bliss!!!

Then one day out of curiosity, I changed the A400 to monoblock valves because people said it was the way to go and what did I get? oh nothing much, better midrange maybe. Then I bought a Krell KAV300i and what did I get? Hmmm... Also nothing much really. Sounds very much like the A400 but perhaps slightly tighter, punchier bass but certainly cannot justify the price of the Krell vs A400.

And then I met this guy who delved in the dark arts of hifi and he threw me a couple of magic beans. Well, not really beans but RCA caps and he said, "if you don't hear an improvement, you have my permission to toss these RCA caps out the window. Well, I put the caps on and I was shocked to find a positive improvement. Then he passed my some power cords, speaker cables, interconnects, magnetic levitation and needless to say they all made huge improments to the sound. Huge!!! I suddenly understood what the good people at The Star Audiophile were writing about when they reviewed the Krell. For all these years I regarded any form of hifi review as mere hype and utter nonsense. Well, I could not have been more wrong.

Today, I am a changed man. If you tell me to stuff some beanbags under my CD player for better midrange, I will at least try it first before calling it nonsense. If you tell me to place a 20 cent coin on top of each speaker for better soundstage depth, well, I will try it too. (That one is utter nonsense by the way).

Many things happen at the subatomic level beyond our human ability to fully comprehend it. I will not even try. But for me, I am keeping an open mind in the pursuit of better sound. I totally agree with WongKN who so eloquently worded his opinion. I don't have his literary skills but I certainly share his opinion on the subject!

Thanks for the compliment bimmerman !!

Just yesterday I was reminded just how 'right' my personal principle in life is : one should always have an open mind because there's just so much to learn.

I was in a hifi session with some friends. The system we were listening to uses the Audio Image locally designed phono preamp, the one with multi-curve but more critically with an option to output only the left channel or right channel - useful for mono LPs. Many of my friends, including I, believes that in a mono LP, the left or right channel can often be different in sonic quality. It could be a result of the pressing process, or it could be unequal wear, etc. So we simply choose either right only or left only mode, whichever sounds best. This was why Adrian designed his phono preamp to have the left only or right only function.

WRONG, two of my friends in the session told me. They told me how they experimented with azimuth (vertical tracking angle of the catridge when viewed head-on, this NOT VTA). The tonearm in quesiton, a Graham T2 has azimuth adjustment. They claim they can hear a difference when the azimuth is set correctly. The owner, being as open minded as me, told them to go ahead and try to tune the azimuth. So they played a mono LP. With the Audip-Image phono preamp, we switch modes and indeed there -was- a clear difference between left and right channel. One of the guys started fiddling with the Graham. He was sitting in the main listening chair and I was at the side. He tuned the azimuth, then listen, then tuned again, then listened agin. Finally he said "it's the best I can do, Adrian would've done better but I think I managed to get it quite close". I asked to sit in the main listening chair. Same mono LP. Now switching between left only or right only mode produced almost NO difference. Both sides also sound equally as good, and both sounded BETTER than the original setting. The biggest shock was the amount of groove noise had went down CONSIDERABLY ! Sonic quality, one can argue can be a product of an imaginative mind. But the amount of 'click-clack-pops' from the record CANNOT be a product of the imagination. The noise was reduced to a tiny fraction of what I heard before the adjustment.

The biggest difference was when we put in a stereo LP. Before that, I had always felt one channel, specifically the left channel to sound better than the right channel. Now with the azmiuth correction, BOTH channel sounded equally as good and again the whole sound was better than before. much better. As again the amount of groove noise reduction was simply astonishing.

Once again my friends taught me the wisdom of my principal - ALWAYS have an open mind because it can be wonderful how much we can learn.

And of once again, I was reminded how blessed I am to have such wonderful friends. Gung Si Fa Chai to all !

Bimmerman,

Put a 20 cent coin under both the front feet only of your cd player. Let the coins protude slightly out in front of the feet. Let me know if it's utter nonsense

sometime when big money came out from pocket automaticly the improvement comes from the BRAIN's not from the EAR's...hehhehhehhe

Playing with tweeks is like adding salt and pepper or (kicap and chili sos in Malaysia) in your dish, no definition, no right or wrong. Just your personal taste.
BTW i like lots of chili sos in my KFC.
In hi-fi i play only cheapest or diy(free) tweeks, almost tried everything possible.
How Do You Like Your Steak?

Now that's one angry dude who wrote the article. Why he call SET an idiotic design ?

Seems to me anything in moderation may be a better position to take. This guy seems to fall into the extreme right wing camp.

Looking at lie no. 3, he is saying the general public (i.e. mainstream) knows best.

The sad reality is that we need guys like him to balance out the other type on the other end of the spectrum - Peter Belt anyone ?

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/110/index.html

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/

Regards,
Joe Ling

Thanks all sifus for all the comments. =)
Happy Chinese New Year for all..

Bimmerman & WongKN,

Now pls don't get me started on open mind and errr cables. Already below ~4K on the Clearlines and I suspect another > 1K on the Powerlines And those RCA caps really work a treat!

perhaps encik bimmer can lighten up more on the tweaking rather than changing amps or speakers. im a bit suprised when you said swapping between a400 to tube & kav doesn't really churns out differents. the phrase 'slighty tighter, punchier bass' on this & that really puzzles me. makes me want to think twice whether to krell or not. i still have a healthy a400 back at home if u know what i mean.

azri wrote:perhaps encik bimmer can lighten up more on the tweaking rather than changing amps or speakers. im a bit suprised when you said swapping between a400 to tube & kav doesn't really churns out differents. the phrase 'slighty tighter, punchier bass' on this & that really puzzles me. makes me want to think twice whether to krell or not. i still have a healthy a400 back at home if u know what i mean.

Perhaps you did not read what I wrote thoroughly or I suspect mainly it's my fault in leaving too many gaps in my writing. Yes, it's probably my poor writing skills to blame.

Ok, I'll try to explain it better. I operated my Cary valve monoblocks with standard PC power cords. Absolutely no accessories because at that time I was too proud and did not believe power cords could make a difference. Yes, there was an improvement over the A400. That sweet as honey midrange was to die for but not much else. Later i added Kimber KCAG and treble detail was a little better and so in my ignorance I felt my setup was already the best of the best and I left it at that. It was blissful no doubt about it.

When I switched to the Krell I switched mainly because I was afraid of the costs involved to replace 8 EL34 tubes. Yes, it's a frightening prospect!!! With the Krell the beautiful midrange was gone and it was a step backwards. Apart from better bass, the Krell had nothing much else to offer. It was basically a louder A400 and that was all. But heck, I was happy. The Krell made a heckova branded boombox and I now own a legendary piece of kit and again bliss!

Then I met a audio bomoh who told me there was something wrong with my sound and he threw me a few beans and I tried it with skepticism. Lo and behold, he was right. These good for nothing looking pieces of copper plated in platinum improved my sound. I was still a skeptic but was now more oppen to suggestion. Next he threw me a snake of a powercord, speaker cables, fuses, magnetic levitation and now suddenly I am realising what Franco Serbelin and D'agostino meant for me to hear.

In conclusion Azri, buy that Krell. But you'll seriously need to provide that Krell with quality AC juice and how you achieve that is up to you. In my experience, power cords matter. The plugs on both ends of the power cords matter. The material of those plugs and the material of their plating matters. British plugs? US plugs? They matter. Then speaker cables, interconnects, equiptment support, they matter too. Ignore all those and your Krell is nothing more than a bigger A400.

Lastly i'd like to add that i've heard many comments and read reviews that the Krell KAV300i is powerful but unrefined. Bass overwhelmes detail and newer offerings have overshadowed it in every possible sonic department. Stereophile even promptly removed it from the recommended equiptments list not long after it was listed there. Well, not in my case. The KAV300i has needs and when these needs are met, it will give any other integrated amp a good spanking. I'll take on the 400Xi, the S-301i or any new fangled integrated any day!!

I'd invite folks to my place to judge for themselves but I cannot at this moment because I don't have a proper music room. Hope to address that soon.

Hi all sifus,
1 question to ask about crossover frequency,

*setting the crossover frequency for at least 10Hz above the lowest frequency your main speakers can reproduce cleanly.

Does it means lower better?
If my front speakers frequency ranges from 38 -> 40KHz, so commonly, is 50Hz the best Xover I should set? I know I have to experience it myself, before that. I just want to know what is the different between bass produce by front speakers and subwoofer, since that most of the subwoofer (ex for my subwoofer, frequency ranges from 26hz -> 900hz) can actually handle more than 200Hz frequency.

For my center speaker, there is a foam plug provided to allow adjustment of the bass sound, the foam plug can be removed if desired to produce a different bass emphasis, any experience to share here?

I am using my new set of speakers currently, for music playing, the sound is much better compare with my old speakers, but for movie, I am still prefer my old speakers... The new speakers produce more echo sound for movies compare with old speakers (which i am not prefer) ... Any idea why?

Thanks.

I'm no sifu but I think it depands on your room acoustics and not by numbers alone. My subwoofer has a variable bass crossover range from 50 to 250hz and i adjust the crossover frequency and attenuation level blindly until the bass sounds full and complements the satelite speakers without overpowering them or sounding too bass heavy. My satelite speakers can go down to only around 75Hz but my subwoofer partners it best at around 200Hz in my case. Your mileage may vary.

my bookshelvers have promised 40- 20k though i could concur with only 60 with technical tracks and state-of-the-art measuring devise (my ears) accordingly my subwoofer has been set to 60 thereabout with few months of subtle finetunings (don't forget about gain level adjustments to introduce close to infinite joint variables with frequency cut-in settings)

as such, 10 below the lower line is too lose an arbitrary start when technical tracks have made it easy!

Thanks tlkoo,

Btw, movie problem on new speakers that i stated earlier, it is because the ACTION surround sound mode. Prefer original pure direct source. : )

what you want eugene? pardon my inability to understand it :-/

Sorry, just mess up with all the surround sound mode previously.....

For my center speaker, there is a foam plug provided to allow adjustment of the bass sound, the foam plug can be removed if desired to produce a different bass emphasis, any experience to share here?


This is the question that i wanted to ask currently.. i not really sure what is the function for the foam plug. Sorry all sifus if i were asking stupid question. I am learning from every reply.. Thanks again.

The foam plug is to 'plug the port'......obliviously your subwoofer is the ported design, meaning it comes with a hole(or port, either down firing or side or front firing port or ports, some may have 2 ports). With open port(s) the low frequencies do roll off much later, compared with the port(s) closed, which is the equivalent of a 'infinite baffle' design, where the low frequencies will start to roll off earlier than the open port design, but extend very gradually and very far down the low spectrum area. The ported design, the low hz roll off earlier and very steeply, meaning the roll off won't extend very far down to 16Hz!


Hence with ported bass sound the bass is stronger or more emplasis on the upper or mid bass. With closed port the mid and upper bass won't be strong but u may feel that the bass has extended somewhat. For music some audiophiles may prefer the closed port or closed box(no ports) design as the bass may sound more natural to the ears. The again it may be a sort of preferences among some audiophiles to like 'ported' bass. So u go ahead and choose your poison!

Thanks uncle_vic for all the details, I know what to do now. Thanks again. =)

Fireworks ping pong sound better than my speakerss. : )
Huat ah for everyone..

For me, tweaking is the most important part of Hifi. If your system reach certain stage, tweaking on interconnect, powercord, fuse n etc should have effect on your system. Even u switch your poweramp power plug to left or right socket may also make different. Powercord cut 2" shorter may also speed up your system. There r lots of tweaks around, it's all about system matching. A rm5k powercord worth nothing if it's doesn't suit your system.

noodle88 wrote:For me, tweaking is the most important part of Hifi. If your system reach certain stage, tweaking on interconnect, powercord, fuse n etc should have effect on your system. Even u switch your poweramp power plug to left or right socket may also make different. Powercord cut 2" shorter may also speed up your system. There r lots of tweaks around, it's all about system matching. A rm5k powercord worth nothing if it's doesn't suit your system.

Not sure about cutting power cords but I mostly concur with the rest of it. Most importantly you'll only realise the differences the tweaks make once your system reaches a certain stage.

Too much tweaking only amounts to what i'd like to term as "mental masturbation". Some people tend to go overboard with this and forget to enjoy the music instead. And then some folks end up spending a good deal of time and money on these tweaks as well, even well beyond the point that the money could have been put to better use in either getting a a better piece of quipment, or more software instead. High subjective of course...


Also, one should not get caught in the illusion and self-deceit that "tweaking" can make a budget equipment give comparable performance to its bigger badder (and usually more expensive) brethren.

I hear you Mugen. I can imagine how one can get carried away tweaking and modding and accessorising until they end up with an over the top sounding system. When the sound becomes sharper and brighter, this can be mistaken as gaining detail and resolution but in actual fact is only sharper and has become strident or ear fatigueingly bright.

That said, i've also experienced first hand some innocent and unassuming looking stuff that unsmear, unveil, tighten, darken, focus, etc without imparting much of a sonic signature of their own.

Sometimes I do question if it's my own imagination or is it real. Have I gone overboard? Have I lost it? and I consult various friends with the own musical tastes who were not involved in my experiments to come listen and comment. Only once did I get a comment that my system has become brighter and a little strident and I quickly undid the last action. Glad to report that everything i've added to my system so far can be undone with a simple unplugging or wiping away. No tools required, No soldering, no dismantaling of casing whatsoever. Just remove or wipe away the offending item.

And what I've learnt so far is quite simple really. No dark arts and no audio voodoo and certainly nothing too expensive.

Here's a small list of a few things I feel are worth looking into:

1. Get the best quality AC into your equiptment. AC noise degrades your sound.
2. Isolate or dampen your equiptment from vibrations the best you know how to.
3. Don't skimp on getting that juice from your amp to your speakers.
4. Get the best interconnects you can afford but do some research first if they suit your system.

Not much to it really but then the items that contribute to the above can come in various forms like plugs, caps, cables, fuses, sockets, pastes, magnets, springs, etc and as such it opens up a huge Pandora's box of stuff that do nothing, suff that do little and stuff that really work.

It's a minefield out there for conjobs so everyone should be careful. I'll need to try it in my own system first before I share it with others and I always believe what works for me may not work for you.

But watch that AC, dampen those bad vibes, isolate interference and noise, channel the juices well and match your equiptment wisely and you'll have a spanking system that makes good music

if i may add, i butt in anyway...

when clumsiness of waja is mistaken as stability
when insecured feeling of kancil is mistaken as quick pick-up
when overly bright sonics are mistaken as detailed-ness and transparency
when blur-ness is mistaken as warmth/tonality
when sluggish-ness is mistaken as bass extension
when white noise is mistaken as air/ambience
when bodied highs are mistaken as lack of treble extension
when boom is mistaken as thickness of bass
when high/low price is mistaken as good quality/inferiority
when reviews are mistaken as audio bibble
when diy audio is mistaken engineering (rather than art)
when friendly advice is mistaken as insult/antagonism
...


whew... done... happy long weekend to all!!!

bimmerman wrote:I hear you Mugen. I can imagine how one can get carried away tweaking and modding and accessorising until they end up with an over the top sounding system. When the sound becomes sharper and brighter, this can be mistaken as gaining detail and resolution but in actual fact is only sharper and has become strident or ear fatigueingly bright.

That said, i've also experienced first hand some innocent and unassuming looking stuff that unsmear, unveil, tighten, darken, focus, etc without imparting much of a sonic signature of their own.

Sometimes I do question if it's my own imagination or is it real. Have I gone overboard? Have I lost it? and I consult various friends with the own musical tastes who were not involved in my experiments to come listen and comment. Only once did I get a comment that my system has become brighter and a little strident and I quickly undid the last action. Glad to report that everything i've added to my system so far can be undone with a simple unplugging or wiping away. No tools required, No soldering, no dismantaling of casing whatsoever. Just remove or wipe away the offending item.

And what I've learnt so far is quite simple really. No dark arts and no audio voodoo and certainly nothing too expensive.

Here's a small list of a few things I feel are worth looking into:

1. Get the best quality AC into your equiptment. AC noise degrades your sound.
2. Isolate or dampen your equiptment from vibrations the best you know how to.
3. Don't skimp on getting that juice from your amp to your speakers.
4. Get the best interconnects you can afford but do some research first if they suit your system.

Not much to it really but then the items that contribute to the above can come in various forms like plugs, caps, cables, fuses, sockets, pastes, magnets, springs, etc and as such it opens up a huge Pandora's box of stuff that do nothing, suff that do little and stuff that really work.

It's a minefield out there for conjobs so everyone should be careful. I'll need to try it in my own system first before I share it with others and I always believe what works for me may not work for you.

But watch that AC, dampen those bad vibes, isolate interference and noise, channel the juices well and match your equiptment wisely and you'll have a spanking system that makes good music

Hey, no fair on the Waja being clumbsy! I'm no supporter of Proton and i'll never buy a Waja but in all fairness the Waja is a very decent hadling car even in stock form. I'd rate it a notch above a BMW E46 318i in stock form anyday. In handling and stability up to 160Kph at least.

But I must agree with you with the rest of your comments from Kanchil to DIY Audio. Can I have your permission to copy, paste and save it for future reference? It's brilliant what you've written!

and a happy long weekend to you too Koo.

ha... just some mumble grumble after churned out some papers to deliver eh do not copy yet, more to add on please...

bimmerman wrote:and a happy long weekend to you too Koo.

my understanding of "clumsy-ness" comes from heavy junk without sufficient power mah

bimmerman wrote:Hey, no fair on the Waja being clumbsy! I'm no supporter of Proton and i'll never buy a Waja but in all fairness the Waja is a very decent hadling car even in stock form. I'd rate it a notch above a BMW E46 318i in stock form anyday. In handling and stability up to 160Kph at least.

But I must agree with you with the rest of your comments from Kanchil to DIY Audio. Can I have your permission to copy, paste and save it for future reference? It's brilliant what you've written!

Haah ?? Waja handle better than a E46 ??? Serious or not ?

But i know Waja definitely handles better than E36 lah. the E36 rolls side to side like a sampan on the South China Sea during Monsoon season.

Basically BMW handling is just over-rated. All the jokers who claim that their 3 series handle damn chun and the like, are just comparing to worse slug-buckets like Peugeots and Renaults. But put side-by-side with any of the Honda Type-R series, and the BMW 3-series would be like trying to maneuver Jabba the Hutt in a MyDIN store.

bimmerman wrote:Hey, no fair on the Waja being clumbsy! I'm no supporter of Proton and i'll never buy a Waja but in all fairness the Waja is a very decent hadling car even in stock form. I'd rate it a notch above a BMW E46 318i in stock form anyday. In handling and stability up to 160Kph at least.

But I must agree with you with the rest of your comments from Kanchil to DIY Audio. Can I have your permission to copy, paste and save it for future reference? It's brilliant what you've written!

Mugen, the E46 318i in stock suspension and 15 inch wheels is the ultimate driving candidate for your Jabba the hut in a Mydin store character. It will roll, corkscrew, dive, squat and perform supermarket trolley gymnastics when pushed to the limit. Also the earlier batches have ultralight steering akin to steering those abovementioned shopping trolley casters too.

What it has going for it is that almost 50:50 front rear balance that will respond well to suspension lowering, sports dampers and an engine that makes more than 200bhp. When faced with a E46 In lowered and souped up form, a front wheel drive Type R short of a NSX will find it hard to keep up with the E46 at Brands Hatch without understeering straight into the tyre barriers. Such is the chassis potential of a BMW 3 series.

But in stock form, the Waja thrashes the E46.

dont know bout you guys, but to me civic EG handles better than proton gti

I thought I entered the wrong thread when I read the last few posts. hahahaha...

now thats the eleventh biggest lies in audio

OK, whats the lap times for a E46, say a 330i or 330Ci at Sepang F1?

A stock EK9 would do it at around 2:50, and this is just with 1.6litres.

Anything short of an M3, and the E46 would just be hauling too much deadweight around the track. If it was the old Batu-3 Track, the E46 would trail even further behind.

If its a 325i, no matter what u do to the car handling-wise (rims, springs, dampers, tyres) , NO WAY will it even be able to follow any stock FWD Type-R on the track. Any track.
Been there, done that.

bimmerman wrote:Mugen, the E46 318i in stock suspension and 15 inch wheels is the ultimate driving candidate for your Jabba the hut in a Mydin store character. It will roll, corkscrew, dive, squat and perform supermarket trolley gymnastics when pushed to the limit. Also the earlier batches have ultralight steering akin to steering those abovementioned shopping trolley casters too.

What it has going for it is that almost 50:50 front rear balance that will respond well to suspension lowering, sports dampers and an engine that makes more than 200bhp. When faced with a E46 In lowered and souped up form, a front wheel drive Type R short of a NSX will find it hard to keep up with the E46 at Brands Hatch without understeering straight into the tyre barriers. Such is the chassis potential of a BMW 3 series.

But in stock form, the Waja thrashes the E46.

every gem has its advantage i reckon. even a spoon EG can eat Ek tep R

azri wrote:every gem has its advantage i reckon. even a spoon EG can eat Ek tep R

Only the "Spoon EG with the Spoon 1.8 stroker kit" , but not a "Spoon EG with B16A".

handling wise, the EK chassis is way more rigid and performance tuned than an EG chassis. The EG being a generation older, flexes much more than the EK.

drife wrote:its nice to step on it when taking corners... i mean floor it. so ff n 4wd ain't me cuppa teh.the 325i would prolly need a supercharger to follow an ff type-r

RWD, u can floor it to the point where u feel the tail starting to come around and smack u in the face.

FWD, u can floor it to the point where the car doesn't wanna turn and just wants to head straight instead.

4WD, depends on what drivetrain variant. Viscous coupled ? ATTESA ? SH-AWD ? Triple LSD ? AYC/ACD ? ... etc etc etc.

i did mentioned SPOON EG right? tgk u tube them both punya battle pun its clearly EK type bnyk oversteer

Dun care whether its Spoon or Fork or Knife or chopstick EG lah ...

if both EG and EK are tuned to the max for a Group-N FIA Homologation, & given the same racedriver, the EK will whack the EG anytime, anyday, anytrack. The EK9 can be pushed much further to the limit than the EG6.

off course la, EK ada type R.. EG ada ke?

azri wrote:off course la, EK ada type R.. EG ada ke?

Ada .... that sticker shop at Sunway .. can cut any sticker style u like, kasi tampal saje...
U want "MyVI Type-R" or "Kancil Type-R" also got. "Malaysia B0LeH" mah!

suda tampal maa.. ex5 type RR

Tampal "Limited Edition" or "Special Edition" pun bolih..