Speaker Cabinet Vibration and Measurements

musicmusic wrote:

chua55 wrote:since you keep asking how to measure PF, pls see below the meter used. I have also mentioned before not onlypower factor, it can do tell you power quality.

http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Power-Quality-Tools/Troubleshooting-Power-Meters/Fluke-43B.htm?PID=56080

So how do you use that to measure form the wall plug point?

Do you honestly thought I do not a Fluke power analyzer?

I refer to your Fluke 43B Single Phase Power Quality Analyzer.

In the manual it says "This function measures and displays the
following power readings: active power (W),
apparent power (VA), reactive power (VAR),
power factor (PF), displacement power factor
(DPF or cos ϕ) and frequency."

So what are the three values when you plug it to the wall plug without a load?

now u are tolking. can or can not?

chua55 wrote:

musicmusic wrote:

chua55 wrote:since you keep asking how to measure PF, pls see below the meter used. I have also mentioned before not onlypower factor, it can do tell you power quality.

http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Power-Quality-Tools/Troubleshooting-Power-Meters/Fluke-43B.htm?PID=56080

So how do you use that to measure form the wall plug point?

Do you honestly thought I do not a Fluke power analyzer?

I refer to your Fluke 43B Single Phase Power Quality Analyzer.

In the manual it says "This function measures and displays the
following power readings: active power (W),
apparent power (VA), reactive power (VAR),
power factor (PF), displacement power factor
(DPF or cos ϕ) and frequency."

So what are the three values when you plug it to the wall plug without a load?

now u are tolking. can or can not?

That's what I asking!

How?

Where is the load?

hehe. good deviation bassraptor. do you occasionally shove it in and pull it out, and repeat the act? coupling?

i was referring to manually cleaning oxidation residues off our rca terminals. what were you guys thinking?

Me ? I am an honest person. I was really thinking what you thought I was going to think. Until you spoiled all the fun by bringing it back to hifi.

WongKN wrote:Musicmusic, if you feel that everyone seems to be 'against' you, perhaps you might want to take a step back and read carefully your first post on this subject, how it was worded and the thread it was written in. Effectively in that post, you more or less jumped in halfway into a discussion where everyone was sharing their knowledge and experience but then proceeded to insult someone who is very widely recognized and respected for his hi-fi knowledge and abilities (worldwide I would add). Do note that your first description of his points was 'snake oil' (note: I am NOT talking about mugenfoo). To be honest, I myself didn't take that post very well at all.
..

I was addressing to what was written not at anyone, in particular.
I have no idea who was Jo Ki.
Snake oil denotes to advice or solutions to problems, which are of no use.
I was merely pointing out there isn't whatsoever relation to weight of the stand must be too heavy wasn't based on any scientific studies.
Cacing oil...that's mine..just teasing bcoz that's addressing issues not backed up.
Anyway, point taken. This has been going on in a circle.
You have been a good moderator, very professional.
Wish I had a better success with this important topic to debunk some myth about speaker stands and spikes and cones. Sad it is coming to an abrupt end.

Musicmusic, you ask a question whether PF can be measured off a socket outlet. didn't you.

It can be measured. so did Mugenfoo reply too.

I have mention in my other post pls dont test a person technical knowledge. Instead just share and be open minded instead of putting remarks that challenges / test a person knowledge.

ryder wrote:Hi Jo,
I would appreciate if you can recommend an inexpensive but effective product that is available locally to be placed in between the interface of the speaker and an open-frame stand, the one that the Harbeth dealer provides. It has to be sufficiently small to sit on an open-frame stand. So far I only heard of the TAOC Tite-35S which some people have used to decouple their speakers from the stands, and these things cost quite a bit --about RM1,700 for a set of 8.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Ryder, I have tried quite a lot of interface, I can tell you that there is no perfect speaker/stand interface under the sun, not at any price! So spending too much on this is not wise.

I can suggest you the following, which is cheap enough for you to try without bleed blood...
1. Small brass spike shoe in 10mm diameter costing RM1.50 per piece (may be more now); get 6 pieces for two speakers, 3 each and you can try 2 in front and one at centre rear, or vice versa.
2. Wooden chinese chess, preferably those harder wood type.
3. There is also brass spike shoes which has a rounded top where the dimple is, reverse it, you have cone-like interface.

I recommend the above is to let you try them and explore from there. Since there is no perfect interface, we don't mind trying those cheap ones that we do not mind throwing them away ifit does not sound good. Furthermore, they are not rubbish if they do not work, we could always use them as spike shoe.

Jo Ki

Hi Jo, thanks for the tips. Your recommendations are great since they don't cost a fortune. I agree it doesn't make too much sense spending too much money on this type of tweak considering the interface between speaker and stand will always be imperfect, not to mention the open-frame stands which are already quite flawed on their own.

Cheers.

chua55 wrote:Musicmusic, you ask a question whether PF can be measured off a socket outlet. didn't you.

It can be measured. so did Mugenfoo reply too.

I have mention in my other post pls dont test a person technical knowledge. Instead just share and be open minded instead of putting remarks that challenges / test a person knowledge.

with all respect, you are just going in circles.

Have you ever measured power factor before?

You have only showed me the instrument to measure but not how to measure.

Do you understand the term load here?

Or do you think if you stick the two test pin inside the plug hole you get power factor?

Do you know what is beer mug anology to explain power factor which is a very complex subject.

In the beginning, I really thought there was something to learn when PF can be measure from you main power point.

So I asked a fair question.

You the one jumped in and asked if I am testing someone's knowledge.
What is so difficult to show how to measure. Why?

You just dont get the points put forth and you dont admit to an earlier question and expect me to answer further questions.

So you want test my electrical knowledge, mugen knowledge, and all the reader knowledge ?

drife wrote:hehe. good deviation bassraptor. do you occasionally shove it in and pull it out, and repeat the act? coupling?

i was referring to manually cleaning oxidation residues off our rca terminals. what were you guys thinking?

actually, i was referring to the sublime act of (cali)fornication .. the term coupling lends the act a sort of Germanic precision, you know, like two BMWs going at it ....

ryder wrote:Hi Jo, thanks for the tips. Your recommendations are great since they don't cost a fortune. I agree it doesn't make too much sense spending too much money on this type of tweak considering the interface between speaker and stand will always be imperfect, not to mention the open-frame stands which are already quite flawed on their own.

Cheers.

You are welcome.

FYI, during the recent KLIAV show, I was using No.1 mentioned. Guess not many people complain the sound is bad coming from just a cheapo RM4.50 x 2 interface?

To be frank, I am in midst of rounding up my research on the best compromise I can manage on the interface that not only work well as speakers' but also for equipment. Will let you know when it is ready.

Open frame stands is not that bad. Please do not write it off simply based on what others had said.

Regards,
Jo Ki

WongKN wrote:Me ? I am an honest person. I was really thinking what you thought I was going to think. Until you spoiled all the fun by bringing it back to hifi.

as usual i try to make my comments as "hifi related" as possible.

musicmusic wrote:
So what are the three values when you plug it to the wall plug without a load?

Eh, thought the cab came and took you to your destination for the day already ???

Anyway welcome back.


Back to the matter at hand . Of course PF needs to be measured with a load (DUH !! ). Electrical load that is (just kidding on the sack of stones, couldn't resist it ).

The very presence of the TYPE of load would naturally affect the PF readings. And whether the Reactive portion of the load is Inductive or Capacitive, or purely resistive in this case.

By simple Ohm's Law (Please say that you know "Ohm's Law" ... Oh the humanity!! ). If there is no load, there would be no current flowing to speak of. And by the power equation that you so accurately quoted from wherever .... you can do the math right ? "any number" multiplied with "zero" equals... what ?
Q.E.D.

As long as there is no electrical-current, there is NO (electrical) Power. ===FACT=== .
The Circuit is hence deemed OPEN or INCOMPLETE.


Sorry if it lead you to "misunderstand" (perhaps on purpose??, if so, i like your cynicism & sarcasm. You're my kind of guy! ) that PF can be measured without an electrical load akin to just sticking a fluke meter to wall and just reading plain Voltage.
hence it seems that an earlier given courtesy that you may have had the required prerequisite and basic fundamental electrical knowledge for topical discussions on electricity has been totally misplaced.
Obviously, any further clarifications with you would like it to be done at the most elementary level, in a Kindergarten kind of way?

bassraptor wrote:

drife wrote:hehe. good deviation bassraptor. do you occasionally shove it in and pull it out, and repeat the act? coupling?

i was referring to manually cleaning oxidation residues off our rca terminals. what were you guys thinking?

actually, i was referring to the sublime act of (cali)fornication .. the term coupling lends the act a sort of Germanic precision, you know, like two BMWs going at it ....

In, oder Aus ??

IN AUS IN AUS IN AUS ... ACHTUNG !!

musicmusic wrote:
I was addressing to what was written not at anyone, in particular.
I have no idea who was Jo Ki.

You're always welcome to come out and social-social abit more.

musicmusic wrote:
Snake oil denotes to advice or solutions to problems, which are of no use.
I was merely pointing out there isn't whatsoever relation to weight of the stand must be too heavy wasn't based on any scientific studies.

So far, and not intending to further offend you in any manner at all here: But in all honesty, you have not quoted, shown or otherwise postulated a SINGLE valid axiom or established basic textbook reference except for some motherhood statements and references to some dubious "TNB guy" sources. Perhaps a more pertinent question would be why you might be unwilling to partake and validate your stand based on your possibly overly indepthful & insightful comprehension into the laws of phsyics, mechanics/kinematics and fundamentals of electricty and how all these inter-relate in the realm of sonic reproduction? No one claims to know everything here. But a good sharing of healthy fundamentals (as opposed to just plain motherhood statements) is a good point to start from.

musicmusic wrote:
Cacing oil...that's mine..just teasing bcoz that's addressing issues not backed up.
Anyway, point taken. This has been going on in a circle.

Sense of humour is always a good thing.

musicmusic wrote:
You have been a good moderator, very professional.
Wish I had a better success with this important topic to debunk some myth about speaker stands and spikes and cones. Sad it is coming to an abrupt end.

Hmmmm....someone trying to praise their way into the moderator's good books here? ... but nevermind ... i digress.
Back to the matter at hand:
So cmon, debunk them myths about stands and spikes and cones and what-nots! ... But please, not with motherhood statements or just plain snake-oil labeling with no facts or anything else to back it up.
If you can do that, then that's some REAL progress (instead of as you said: going around in circles).

Deal ?

Do you guys think snake oil would be appropriate for an erotic massage ....you know, being snake oil and all that, the connotations ... snake oil, coupling, racks, resistance ... oh my, we audiophiles are certainly a naughty buncha geezers ...

mugenfoo wrote:

musicmusic wrote:
I was addressing to what was written not at anyone, in particular.
I have no idea who was Jo Ki.

You're always welcome to come out and social-social abit more.

musicmusic wrote:
Snake oil denotes to advice or solutions to problems, which are of no use.
I was merely pointing out there isn't whatsoever relation to weight of the stand must be too heavy wasn't based on any scientific studies.

So far, and not intending to further offend you in any manner at all here: But in all honesty, you have not quoted, shown or otherwise postulated a SINGLE valid axiom or established basic textbook reference except for some motherhood statements and references to some dubious "TNB guy" sources. Perhaps a more pertinent question would be why you might be unwilling to partake and validate your stand based on your possibly overly indepthful & insightful comprehension into the laws of phsyics, mechanics/kinematics and fundamentals of electricty and how all these inter-relate in the realm of sonic reproduction? No one claims to know everything here. But a good sharing of healthy fundamentals (as opposed to just plain motherhood statements) is a good point to start from.

musicmusic wrote:
Cacing oil...that's mine..just teasing bcoz that's addressing issues not backed up.
Anyway, point taken. This has been going on in a circle.

Sense of humour is always a good thing.

musicmusic wrote:
You have been a good moderator, very professional.
Wish I had a better success with this important topic to debunk some myth about speaker stands and spikes and cones. Sad it is coming to an abrupt end.

Hmmmm....someone trying to praise their way into the moderator's good books here? ... but nevermind ... i digress.
Back to the matter at hand:
So cmon, debunk them myths about stands and spikes and cones and what-nots! ... But please, not with motherhood statements or just plain snake-oil labeling with no facts or anything else to back it up.
If you can do that, then that's some REAL progress (instead of as you said: going around in circles).

Deal ?

My stance on 'weight of stands is one key mode that is affecting the sound' shall remains.

It is a very simple Physics, need not have to read up scientific test or review from anyone else to gain the viewpoint. Snake oil? And I stopped here NOT because I do not know scientific explanation to my theory; I simply do not like sharing when it is not worthwhile, and yet I keep the peace.

Surfaces reflection of the stands that causes it? Think again. Whilst the understanding of vibration on cones and cabinet relationship is so profound (in Yahoo forums, I said this quite many times many years ago), I am surprised that the knowledge seems stopped abrutly there; if it was to be applied to the cabinet and stands, it would be interetsting to see it throwing out this ill informed 'surfaces reflections' theory.

Reflection? In a small stick-like metal legs of the stands? I give you "quarter wavelength theory" in sound reflection to ponder with. How do you take this when JA mentioned this? Be ware of what you read, and be ware of what you write, they may haunt you years later.

Normally people do not have such acute differences in theory on similar circumstances... I know as a design tutor eversince I was in 3rd year uni and this is how I know when student copied their design somewhere...

Jo Ki

bassraptor wrote:Do you guys think snake oil would be appropriate for an erotic massage ....you know, being snake oil and all that, the connotations ... snake oil, coupling, racks, resistance ... oh my, we audiophiles are certainly a naughty buncha geezers ...

Ha.. very funny Bassraptor! I cannot help laughing. Your humour is very artistically put. Good to start the day with.

Just to keep it on topic, where do you think snake oil could be applied in our beloved hifi system? For the betterment of it of course!

TIA.
Jo Ki

mugenfoo wrote:

musicmusic wrote:
I was addressing to what was written not at anyone, in particular.
I have no idea who was Jo Ki.

You're always welcome to come out and social-social abit more.

No thanks. I rather keep away from super clever people who're taking forever to explain the PF thingy.

mugenfoo wrote: So far, and not intending to further offend you in any manner at all here: But in all honesty, you have not quoted, shown or otherwise postulated a SINGLE valid axiom or established basic textbook reference except for some motherhood statements and references to some dubious "TNB guy" sources ........ No one claims to know everything here.......

If writing irrelevant equation like you do?

Like talking about impedance matching..but giving reflection co efficiency equation? But missing out acoustic impedance?

Now you are talking about PF thingy about load and open circuit.

I dare you to show your skills and put the picture of you measuring PF of your wall main point(without load) and interpretation of the the 3 values.

But it will NEVER happen.

musicmusic wrote:
I dare you to show your skills and put the picture of you measuring PF of your wall main point(without load) and interpretation of the the 3 values.

But it will NEVER happen.

See, thats your problem right here. I have already CLARIFIED that PF reading needs to have a load. Yet you still still harp on the old issue of no-load. But as all can see, simple Ohm's Law already shows the irrelevancy of your silly clinging on the "How to measure without load" which is just not in argument at all.
Chua55 also has clarified the same already.

Obviously you are the one having a desire to keep things in a circle. If you could just stop crying over spilled milk and move on. It would be a non-issue then.
Adding on that you keep whining about it being stuck in a circle? But thanks, its quite entertaining to see you chasing your own tail plus the added bonus of more whining about your own doing.

jokiarch wrote:
My stance on 'weight of stands is one key mode that is affecting the sound' shall remains.

It is a very simple Physics, need not have to read up scientific test or review from anyone else to gain the viewpoint. Snake oil? And I stopped here NOT because I do not know scientific explanation to my theory; I simply do not like sharing when it is not worthwhile, and yet I keep the peace.

... and who here is disputing the above? Anybody ?

jokiarch wrote:
Surfaces reflection of the stands that causes it? Think again. Whilst the understanding of vibration on cones and cabinet relationship is so profound (in Yahoo forums, I said this quite many times many years ago), I am surprised that the knowledge seems stopped abrutly there; if it was to be applied to the cabinet and stands, it would be interetsting to see it throwing out this ill informed 'surfaces reflections' theory.

Reflection? In a small stick-like metal legs of the stands? I give you "quarter wavelength theory" in sound reflection to ponder with. How do you take this when JA mentioned this? Be ware of what you read, and be ware of what you write, they may haunt you years later.

Interesting topic to be brought up:
The quarter wavelength theory is still subject to many qualifiers.
In the case of the stand's columns, these variables would need to known as well. For example: What is the propagation speed of the mechanical wave in that column? I would think that it would be vastly different if it originates from the speaker assembly. What would seem to be "quarter-wave" for a particular freq would be 3/8 waves or 5/6 waves for differing frequencies already. We're talking extremely high-Q-factors here for the quarter wave theory to be applied.
Furthermore, lets consider if the column is hollow vs. it being sand-filled (for eg,) the wave propagation speed would be varied again. The non-uniformity of the column material again would present itself as a big variable on how it would affect the stand's own impedance when acting as a medium to transport mechanical energy. How much of it is absorbed within itself? How much of it would be sent through? These would be the unknowns that come to mind for example, obviously there would be more along the way.

JA's position is nevertheless an interesting one and is well worth some thought consideration, since most of us don't possess the amount of lab toys he has at his disposal. Whether those lab toys are used correctly to validate a point or abused to paint a skewed conclusion is another matter.

jokiarch wrote:
Normally people do not have such acute differences in theory on similar circumstances... I know as a design tutor eversince I was in 3rd year uni and this is how I know when student copied their design somewhere...

Jo Ki

Adding on: Just for the sake of clarification, would be the similarities of electromagnetic waves with acoustic waves be considered also?

How would chinese-chess woodblocks, sorbothane footers, boutique metal spikes, or blutack play the role of the missing-link between loudspeaker and stands? Perhaps its all down to empirical experimentation and auditory conclusions? Which is not a bad way either.

Nevertheless, at across the audible band of mechanical freqs we're dealing with here, a block of chinese chess piece would nicely transmit some freqs, would absorb some freqs, an would reflect (maybe deflect is a better word here) some freqs between speaker and stand. If one wants to lab-measure it, perhaps here's where the MLSSA waterfall plots would add some form of visual identification to the above? Or as with all tweak lovers in hifi, try and try to one's own hearty content.

One thing to leave open ended for further debate , based on the above similarities: Then what might be the cousin of reflection coefficients in electromagnetic waves for mechanical waves here ?

My stance here would be:
1. Stands of all shapes and sizes would influence the sound always.
2. How the speakers are affixed to the stands can "make or break" (to borrow this phrase from an audiophile-dealer who as always so chooses to be anonymous at all times and avoids all forum activities) the sound also.
3. None really is snake-oil, merely its application or mis-application that is more important.

I used to write-off shun-mook and harmonix products as snake oil too. But after some hefty "tuition fees" & insane experimentation in the realm of vibration control and resonances, it is a brand new dawn again.

Lastly, whatever works for one's own musical enjoyment.

Jo Ki: I think snake oil would work nicely for lubrication of various joints and parts ... know what i mean? ... might even lead to pleasurable experiences ... with listening, i mean, what did you think?

I know mugen is trying his best to keep a straight and serious face, and trying to stay all scientific business but i'll bet he just went behind his spider racks for a good laugh ...

You know, I spent a weekend fine-tuning the position of my maggies to get it just where I felt it was just right. Then, when I thought I had done that, I pulled out the Apogee Centaurs and lined them up vs the Maggies. I wanted to cry when I heard the Centaurs then, even without optimum placement. Made my work with the Maggies seem so futile.

That's it, no more buying hifi gear for me. I'll just save up for a pair of rebuilt full-range ribbons! Or electrostatics ...

mugenfoo wrote:

See, thats your problem right here. I have already CLARIFIED that PF reading needs to have a load...

Finally! admitting the need for load...

No need to pusing pusing, gelek gelek, and make u turn.

Say it loud and clear. Do not bring in extraneous issues for matter under discussion.

We are in ordinary Hifi forum not EE forum.

Don't confuse people with irrelevant things when what was asked

was a simple question if his wall supply of 236V is enough?

You can talk about harmonics, etc ,etc but PF was not any

relevant at all.

Since you have admitted the need for load for PF. I won't bother

you with PF thingy anymore.

p.s.Can then ask you about thin wall and open baffle concept?
Remember you said "This means that such speakers would never strive (nor should it even attempt to) to reproduce the slam and dynamics and low thumping bass reproduction of the loudest crescendos in a given musical piece."

pls stop the provocative words. action will lead to reaction.

about the PF measurement, two questions were being thrown at. can be measured ? and how to measure.

When we bring you to talk about the first question, without any answer, you jump to question 2.

and then more and more questions, testing one's ability and knowledge as if you are the supreme know all.

If one were to read this thread from the beginning, 3 things emerge:

• This thread was created to elicit & provoke responses from one or more members. The intended outcome was then to denigrate/thrash these responses, regardless of the validity. It could be construed as very negative & possibly malicious.Let's hope we are wrong on this.

• You could say that reading this thread has a low S/N ratio (very high noise levels from the no-value-added remarks), but you still get to glean the essence despite the surrounding noise; some useful pointers from mugenfoo & jokiarch, to name a few (makes you re-visit all the different manufacturer philosophies and consider them objectively).

• As in most stories, the middle-part gets more interesting, but if the outcome is more or less known, dragging the storyline will result in readers eventually getting tired and bored.

So, let's propose that we move on & not waste time.

For those really interested in the subject of speaker cabinet resonances & measurements, or even the broader scope of resonances and how it affects sound quality, it is possible that we propose another meet this Nov/Dec. We'll of course have to get a few people to share their experiences to make it interesting via some empirical evidence. A few of you should be getting your invitations to present soon. The objective is to learn & have fun at the same time

bassraptor wrote:Jo Ki: I think snake oil would work nicely for lubrication of various joints and parts ... know what i mean? ... might even lead to pleasurable experiences ... with listening, i mean, what did you think?

can pleasureable experiences be measured? is it by the time taken to reach the climax?

chua55 wrote:

bassraptor wrote:Jo Ki: I think snake oil would work nicely for lubrication of various joints and parts ... know what i mean? ... might even lead to pleasurable experiences ... with listening, i mean, what did you think?

can pleasureable experiences be measured? is it by the time taken to reach the climax?

chua55,

There lies the answer...some things cannot be measured (at least not with present know-how) but empirical evidence makes it very clear for some indeed.

so do you think vi****ion in pleasureable experience can be measured, like using the MLSSA. oh no, I had too much snake oil, cacing oil.

Hello, Hi-Fi 4 Sale ... welcome back. Trust you used lots of snake oil, among other things ...

Sorry, folks, sometimes, I feel I shud play court jester ..

chua: the longer the experience before the climax, the more pleasurable. didn't you know? the journey is the important part, not the goal! Again, I'm talking hi-fi ... when you have a million buck-plus system, what else is there? Apart from expanding your number of mistresses or nailing more tail ...

Aiyah, you are all using the wrong snake oil. I used mine on the legs of my spyder rack. Makes them more... rigid.....

I feel the meeting in nov/dec with the tools and gears and venue are the best part of the fun. No snake oil of course.

WongKN wrote:Aiyah, you are all using the wrong snake oil. I used mine on the legs of my spyder rack. Makes them more... rigid.....

wow, can make loads of money now. there's a massive market for oil that makes stuff rigid!

To deviate abit over to the serious side of this thread. Let me clarify a few small things.

Firstly musicmusic, it just so happens you 'targetted' your snakeoil comment to the wrong person (your choice was probably as bad as it can possibly be). But what concerned me was the scenario of 'what if' it was someone else. A forumer without the credentials of Jo or without the resilience of mugenfoo or chua55. Maybe someone like me who does not hold an electronics degree (but make no mistakes, no-one dares challenge me on those topics I am reputed for ). this then makes one important point. Of course I am 'picking' on you simply due to coincidence, because of your 'snake oil post' but I am not picking on you as a person specifically. I just want to make a point here. And the message goes out to everybody.

Hifi, to me, is as much as about science as it is about art. The act of listening is often called the 'art' of listening. The musician playing that score is measured on his or her artistry. Even in the more technical aspects of this hobby, the act of fine-tuning our system often involves elements of 'art', the evaluation of the quality of sound can never be completely scientific - we humans just are not advanced enough to fully comprehend the intricancies that goes into the subjective evaluation of sound, more importantly how 'musical' a particular music passage is.

I have noticed in many hifi discussions in many hifi forums how there can be a tendency, even a trend, towards 'bullying'. This is the act of how some people with a greater knowledge in areas somewhat related to hifi, say electronics or electrical, and then using formulas and technical questions to challenge and finally silence another person who do not have the same level of knowledge but whom might simply want to share an experience sincerely. I have seen ridiculous situations where every discussion ends up with a challenge to show the formulas or the hard data or scientific facts, etc.

Now, I do not want this to happen to our forum. As I took great pains to establish above, hifi is as much about art as it is about science. The art of listening. Even something as apparently technical as speaker stands and how to select and match a pair of stands to a pair of speakers. It can never be completely scientific. And when we start to put down every other opinion by using the 'intellectual trick' of challenging for formulas or measured data, then that's when a discussion becomes useless.

This of course does not mean anyone can sprew bullshit. But it do mean that if someone has an experience and shares it, no matter how ridiculous it seems, if you do not agree with it, or if your experience differs, just say so POLITELY. No need to challenge or put down the other person. It is about the sharing of information and of experience. Not about who is superior and who is not. This is a request made to everyone.

Establishing this mode of discussion in our forum was the 'hidden motive' for me to allow this thread to be started in the first place, eventhough as I noted, I knew then clearly that this was a 'showdown' thread.

So by this stage, I have already gotten totally bored of the direction this thread has taken. It is going around in circles and only a few sincere people are really sharing useful information. Eventhough I planned to follow this thread very closely to ensure it is moderated tightly, I am actually skipping through several postings because they are talking about the same thing over and over again.

So, I am now saying, LET'S MOVE ON.

If anyone wants to discuss about this topic and constructively, create a new one which is purely about this topic. Otherwise, let those involved n the showdown 'kiss and make up' and let's move on to other interesting topics, shall we ?

bassraptor wrote:

WongKN wrote:Aiyah, you are all using the wrong snake oil. I used mine on the legs of my spyder rack. Makes them more... rigid.....

wow, can make loads of money now. there's a massive market for oil that makes stuff rigid!

But seriously right, I remember at one time there was this rather 'unusual' advertisement on TV by a brand called 'franc oil' or something like that. It was only shown after 12midnight so only by people who is watching the late night news, etc. And the way the advertisement ran, it was clearly something we chinese like to call 'yan tou sahn yau' (magic oil from india), you know the ability of tongkat ali and viagra in oil form..... Maybe someone might want to try this on the legs of their speaker stands.....

chua55 wrote:I feel the meeting in nov/dec with the tools and gears and venue are the best part of the fun. No snake oil of course.

I was thinking along the line of something like an informal and easy going 'blind listening test'.

BTW bassraptor, how's the system setup progressing ?

Most probably mr hifi4sale admin was MIA so long becoz of some Other more pressing matters at hand:
some things in life are just way more imprtant than hifi...

bassraptor wrote:....
That's it, no more buying hifi gear for me. I'll just save up for a pair of rebuilt full-range ribbons! Or electrostatics ...

Best of luck Dude !! I waited YEARS for mine. And it was a true fluke shot that I got it. Then to learn how narrowly I got it was quite harrowing for me. I am still very grateful to the guy who found the gem for me.

Mugen: Pressing matters, eh? Nice one ...

Wong: It was called Franch oil! ha ha ... i remember. the set up is stuck at one point, hoping to get it resolved coming week, so ....

chua55 wrote:
can pleasureable experiences be measured? is it by the time taken to reach the climax?

perhaps one can rub some franch oil on a test pin and put it in the socket and measure the ...power factor?

bassraptor wrote:Mugen: Pressing matters, eh? Nice one ...

Wong: It was called Franch oil! ha ha ... i remember. the set up is stuck at one point, hoping to get it resolved coming week, so ....

sflam wrote:

chua55 wrote:
can pleasureable experiences be measured? is it by the time taken to reach the climax?

perhaps one can rub some franch oil on a test pin and put it in the socket and measure the ...power factor?

Actually, mr. Hifi4sale admin with his new "happy-status" recently would be the ideal candidate to test out this "Franch Oil" and give a total product evaluation especially in the areas that chua55 and sflam is so interested to know!
He would be sure to be able to vouch or write-off for the effectiveness of this oil in real-life testing!

Some of the test parameters could be:
Lasting-power factor, Good vibration Harmonics with low "distortion", lubrication contact effectiveness especially when it comes to tight fittings (much like RCA jacks), and chua55's favourite which is time-to-climax and when the climax arrives, it can be measured in dB loudness.

If it doesn't work as advertised, this it might turn out to be snake-oil after all !

Bassraptor, you might be able to learn a thing or two from the young man just yet!

When the cable is thick n heavy gauge, you won't need much snake oil ...

bassraptor wrote:When the cable is thick n heavy gauge, you won't need much snake oil ...

On the contrary, if cable is thicker and heavier... means there would be more surface friction and stronger "boundary condition". !

More snake oil is required in this case then!

Not if both the cable n terminal are competently self-lubricating

u hv not taken into account skin effect.

bassraptor wrote:Jo Ki: I think snake oil would work nicely for lubrication of various joints and parts ... know what i mean? ... might even lead to pleasurable experiences ... with listening, i mean, what did you think?

I know mugen is trying his best to keep a straight and serious face, and trying to stay all scientific business but i'll bet he just went behind his spider racks for a good laugh ...

You know, I spent a weekend fine-tuning the position of my maggies to get it just where I felt it was just right. Then, when I thought I had done that, I pulled out the Apogee Centaurs and lined them up vs the Maggies. I wanted to cry when I heard the Centaurs then, even without optimum placement. Made my work with the Maggies seem so futile.

That's it, no more buying hifi gear for me. I'll just save up for a pair of rebuilt full-range ribbons! Or electrostatics ...

Now you are onto Apogee? And you want to cry? I want to congratulate you Bassraptor!! I love Apogee ultimately, and to a lesser extend, ESL-57 which I own but pending setting up. Welldone!!

I can appreciate your predicaments in spending tremendous hours in your set-up and only took a hugely compromised drop-in of another to knock it off! In the persuit of hifi, this is a good thing considering the rarity in finding "the right one" here.

Congrats again!
Jo Ki

bassraptor wrote:Not if both the cable n terminal are competently self-lubricating

sflam wrote:u hv not taken into account skin effect.

See... Both of you are all a bunch of kinky "audiofiles" !!!
Please send my regards to Sai Wan also.

jokiarch wrote:

bassraptor wrote:Jo Ki: I think snake oil would work nicely for lubrication of various joints and parts ... know what i mean? ... might even lead to pleasurable experiences ... with listening, i mean, what did you think?

I know mugen is trying his best to keep a straight and serious face, and trying to stay all scientific business but i'll bet he just went behind his spider racks for a good laugh ...

You know, I spent a weekend fine-tuning the position of my maggies to get it just where I felt it was just right. Then, when I thought I had done that, I pulled out the Apogee Centaurs and lined them up vs the Maggies. I wanted to cry when I heard the Centaurs then, even without optimum placement. Made my work with the Maggies seem so futile.

That's it, no more buying hifi gear for me. I'll just save up for a pair of rebuilt full-range ribbons! Or electrostatics ...

Now you are onto Apogee? And you want to cry? I want to congratulate you Bassraptor!! I love Apogee ultimately, and to a lesser extend, ESL-57 which I own but pending setting up. Welldone!!

I can appreciate your predicaments in spending tremendous hours in your set-up and only took a hugely compromised drop-in of another to knock it off! In the persuit of hifi, this is a good thing considering the rarity in finding "the right one" here.

Congrats again!
Jo Ki

Oh, heard an extremely interesting story today......
There's this story that listening to the Maggies is like looking out at the panoramic view of a window via an extremely clean and clear glass!
With the Apogees, the glass is Shattered away!


Would anyone be kind enough to own up to that story above ?