Playing Music via iTunes

I will be venturing down computer audio in the near future and was reading up quite a bit lately. Some questions as follows.

Is Itunes the most common or practical format that most people use to play their audio files? What are the other options?

So far I am thinking of wireless => macbook/mac mini/imac/iphone => airport express => DAC => amplifier. What is the general consensus on macbook vs mac mini vs imac vs iphone solely on streaming audio files?

Lastly, what version of itunes do most folks use? The new iTunes format is 256kbs AAC which is a lossy compression format whereas the Apple Lossless is another lossless compression comparable to WAV and AIFF. I have read that most people prefer the Apple Lossless as the difference is not subtle.

Any advice is most appreciated.

iTunes is the most popular, but you can also opt for MediaMonkey or Foobar; MM will rip your CDs in Flac format, which iTunes does not. Not sure how these will, if at all, work with a Mac system. I've used MM, it's a pretty great music management and ripping system, once you get used to it.

I once ripped the same track twice, using Lossless and WAV. A seasoned audiophile who heard it on a pretty decent system thought the difference was very minimal. So if space is a factor, Lossless is a pretty good option.

Thanks for the response. Will do further research on MediaMonkey and Foobar.

Apart from sound quality, other aspects of equal importance(to me) are cost of implementation in hardware and ease of usage. I don't want to end up with something that is complicated and difficult to use. The interface of the system shall be user-friendly.

I don't think space would be an issue as most folks usually back up their music storage in external hard drives(one or two) for safety precautions.

try the new Arcam DAC - i think its well priced for and punches above its weight - not sure about streaming - if ur using a mac based system - you need to specify the output rate 24/96 or whichever you dac supports as its highest before you open or import anything into itunes, this just has to be done once.

I have a full mac based set up with the latest Imac via a Nuforce HDP (non streaming).

Opt for Apple Lossless format when you rip (*.m4a) , after all fidelity is everything:) you also need to turn (off) the "Sound Enhancer" in Itunes to reach a stable high-fidelity without any post processing.

Cheers!

Thanks for the response. Based on my previous experience with Arcam gears(my first decent hifi system more than a decade ago was an all Arcam system) I am not very fond of their equipment, especially the amps. They may have improved on their source in these recent years. Nevertheless there is a lot of competition in the DAC scene these days so I am not too worried about picking one that is suitable at the moment. The more critical for me is the upstream before the DAC. The Imac is looking good. I've been reading a lot on it on the Apple website. Will study more.

Cheers.

If u want simplicity at a decent cost and relatively good quality, I reckon iTunes is the best way to go especially if u have an iPod touch or iphone.

I currently have my music ripped into apple lossless onto 1 TB external hard disk and I stream it via iTunes to the following 3 Airport Express:

1. Hifi room - Connected to Musical Fidelity M1 DAC and upsample to 192 kHz using optical cable

2. Lounge - connected via Arcam rDac using optical cable

3. Kitchen - Connected to logitech powered speakers via 3.5 mm jack to RCA

The SQ from set up 1 sounds the best.

Using itunes and Remote App on iphone/ipod touch, u will be able to stream to multiple airport express at any time.

And now with new OS for iPhone and ipod touch, i can stream music directly to the airport express but cannot do multiple.

Cost - each airport express cost rm369, ipod touch rm1400, 1 TB hard disk rm400 wireless western digital. Totap about rm3000.

Elhefe, thanks for the response. Some silly questions, so bear with me.

I guess you are using either a PC or notebook to control the ripped apple lossless files stored onto the external 1TB hard drive. If that is the case, I presume your computer/notebook is in the main system in the hifi room. Say you want to play music in the lounge. You need to power up your computer in the hifi room in order to play music in the lounge don't you?

Second question. How do you connect the Airport Express to the amplifier? I noticed it only has a 3.5mm audio minijack output.

Thanks in advance.

iTunes is more than just a media player.

It is a complete lifestyle media library that lets u catalog, custom classify, and get album artwork associated with the music. It also has other stuff like recommendations (hoping that you'll buy more similart music from the iTunes store) and genius-playlists to categorise your favourite genre of music into smart-lists.

It also catalogs your music videos, podcasts and anything AV related as well.


The Airport Express' (AEX) output jack is a hybrid Digital & analogue line level output.
If u plug in a normal stereo headphone to RCA cable, it just gives line level output. Don't expect super quality sound via this method.

But if u get a "mini-toslink to toslink" adapter + any regular toslink cable, or a "mini-toslink to toslink" cable (one side is toslink, there other side is mini-toslink which looks like a headphone plug but plastic with a optical tip), then the AEX becomes a digital transport. You then use your own external DAC onwards.

I just gone through the Ipod Touch and Ipad on the Apple website and have a feeling that either one of these actually replace the PC in controlling Itunes stored on external hard drives apart from having other features.

What is the difference between Ipod Touch and Ipad? Is the Ipod Touch basically a smaller version of the Ipad? These things look pretty cool. Sorry for sounding like someone who just came out from the jungle.

Okay thanks for the tip. The Ipod Touch(or the Ipad) is looking good if it fits my application. Need to sleep. Getting very sleepy now.

u can install an app called "Remote" on your iOS device. Basically just lets you remote-control & play your iTunes library on a Mac or PC.

At the end of the day, I find iTunes the most practical for a couple of reasons:
1. The iPhone is used as the source for my car audio.
2. Great interface and album art.
3. Very easy to get familiarised with.

Your mileage may vary, everyone has different criteria.

I remember that I once imported my music from the CDs into iTunes using Apple lossless format. Somehow, the sound didn't seem right. After all, it was lossless, so what could have gone wrong?

However, once these same songs were re-imported into iTunes as WAV format, for reasons unknown (to me, at least), the sound, played back through the same iPod, was better.

Currently, my iTunes library consists mainly of songs in AIFF format. It is similar to WAV in the sense that both are uncompressed formats. One of the differences, if I am not mistaken, is the 'endian-ness' of the data. AIFF is Big-Endian, meaning the most significant byte comes first; whereas WAV is Little-Endian, where you have the least significant byte first. You judge for yourselves whether this has a sonic impact. AIFF & WAV, to me, is splitting hairs.

If you choose to use iTunes in Windows & stream wirelessly via the Apple Airport Express, bear in mind that the Airport Express digital output is not bit-perfect, ie. the original 16/44.1 data may end up being upconverted and upsampled to 24/96. Some prefer bit-perfect output, letting the DAC do all the processing.

IIRC, from what we tried out on one of our gatherings, you can get bit-perfect output using a Logitech Squeezebox Classic/Touch. The Squeezebox software can read off your iTunes library, so you don't lose much, save for the preference of the interface.

ryder wrote:Elhefe, thanks for the response. Some silly questions, so bear with me.

I guess you are using either a PC or notebook to control the ripped apple lossless files stored onto the external 1TB hard drive. If that is the case, I presume your computer/notebook is in the main system in the hifi room. Say you want to play music in the lounge. You need to power up your computer in the hifi room in order to play music in the lounge don't you?

Second question. How do you connect the Airport Express to the amplifier? I noticed it only has a 3.5mm audio minijack output.

Thanks in advance.

Ryder,

Unfortunately, the downside of streaming from iTunes is that you need to keep yr laptop/pc on all the time. My laptop is in the study/office room but i can control the music from Ipod/iphone from anywhere in the house.

However, with the latest OS for ipod touch/iphone which was just released on monday, you will be able to stream directly to the airport express so no need laptop anymore. But can only stream to one airport express. With the laptop you can stream simultaneously to all airport express. I think itunes allow you to stream up to 20 airport express in one network.

Plus, airport express also has a usb input where u can connect yr printer so that you can print wirelessly.

Connection wise, as explained by mugenfoo. The 3.5 mm jack doubles as a digital output as well. For my kitchen set up, i connect direct to powered speakers and not via DAC. Sound so so lah just for background music for my wife while cooking

Ohh also, you can play internet radio from all over the world and stream thm as well.

Of course if u have higher budget, can go for squeezebox by logitech or the expensive Sonos system.

Hi-Fi 4 Sale wrote:

If you choose to use iTunes in Windows & stream wirelessly via the Apple Airport Express, bear in mind that the Airport Express digital output is not bit-perfect, ie. the original 16/44.1 data may end up being upconverted and upsampled to 24/96. Some prefer bit-perfect output, letting the DAC do all the processing.

Thanks for the comprehensive and useful advice. At least I now have something to ponder about. The issue of Apple Airport Express not being able to output bit-perfect data is disconcerting as I thought this would be perfect to match the Ipod/Ipad being all-Apple products. I'll look up the Logitech stuff to see how they compare with the Airport Express.

I'm more inclined to the Apple stuff(Ipod/Ipad) since they appear to be quite user-friendly. It's just the minor gripe of the Apple Airport Express not outputting bit-perfect data that needs to be taken into consideration.

Elhefe, thanks for the response. Are you using a laptop/notebook or an Ipod to stream music to the Airport Express?

There is no issue to keep the PC powered up all the time. My PC is always switched on 24 hours a day whenever I am at home. Not too sure if it's a good idea if it's a notebook.

I am using laptop. Yes, not very good idea keep it on all the time. But I have 2 words - Extended Warranty hehehehe. ITs covered for 3 years.

I stream from laptop most of the time. But for my hifi room, usually I disconnect the airport express from the laptop and stream it from my iPhone.

This set up is more for convenience sake rather than SQ. But its bearable especially if you feed the AE to a DAC.

Okay so you have the Iphone. If you stream music from your laptop that is located in the hifi room, then you must be using the Ipod to control the music library of the 2nd system in the lounge. At any rate, we will need an Iphone/Ipod/Ipad if a 2nd system is set up elsewhere in the house. I think I have a rough idea how this whole thing works now.

Thanks.

The USB port on the Apple Airport Express is connected to the USB port on the DAC via USB-USB cable.

My CD player can be used as a standalone DAC and has the following digital inputs -EIAJ optical, SPDIF coaxial and AES/EBU XLR balanced. Is there a cable that support any of these connections? ie. USB-EIAJ, USB-SPDIF or USB-AES/EBU?

PS Audio has an USB to SPDIF adapter but this thing costs US$495.



Might as well get a DAC if there isn't any equilavent cable at about 10 bucks.

Yes correct. If yr pc set up is in another room, then u need ipod/ipad/iphone to control the music using Remote App.

Eh i think the usb port in AE only for printer. Not for streaming music.

I too read that the USB port on the AE is for the printer. Then how is the AE connected to the DAC? The Ethernet port is connected to the modem. My impression is the USB port can be used for both printer and DAC .

Ry,

If you are using Mac, go for Itunes. Use Amarra / Pure Music if you use Itunes. It makes a world of difference. But it is not cheap.

If you are using Windows, use JRivers 15 with Win 7/ Wasapi. It comes with great navigation/album covers. You can download it for free. You can use HP usb remote to navigate from yr couch. So far this is the best software for music. We have tried Media Monkey/ Foobar/ Ape / Itunes etc/
The best format to rip yr CD is into WAV in uncompressed mode. It is convertable to other formats. The best ripping software is DB Poweramp with accurate rip turned on and slowest speed. Of course there are other small details you have to follow which is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Hope above helps.

You can buy M2Tech to convert USB to SPDIF or BNC so you can still use yr present DAC. It supports up to 24/192 if yr DAC can accept it.

ryder wrote:I too read that the USB port on the AE is for the printer. Then how is the AE connected to the DAC? The Ethernet port is connected to the modem. My impression is the USB port can be used for both printer and DAC .

As mentioned, the 3.5 mm jack doubles up as a digital out. You can either connect a 3.5 mm to 2 x RCA cable to your amp or a mini toslink to toslink optical cable to your DAC. This optical cable is has a different connection than the normal optical cable.

Thanks for all responses. It was much appreciated.

elhefe wrote:

I picture is indeed worth a thousand words ...

Elhefe,

Can your iphone and ipod touch connect to a non-Apple laptop? Are you using an Apple notebook such as the Macbook or Macbook Pro?

iPhone/ipod/ipad works with Windows based PC as well. I am using ASUS laptop. Tempted to change to iMac but cannot get use to the keyboard and mouse hehehe.

elhefe wrote:
However, with the latest OS for ipod touch/iphone which was just released on monday, you will be able to stream directly to the airport express so no need laptop anymore. But can only stream to one airport express. With the laptop you can stream simultaneously to all airport express. I think itunes allow you to stream up to 20 airport express in one network.

Last question. I just reread your message above. With the latest operating system of the Ipod touch/Iphone, one can stream music files direct to the Apple Airport Express. I presume this is only possible when streaming music files that are stored inside the Ipod touch/Iphone to the Airport Express. However, if the music files are stored in external hard drives, a PC/notebook will still be required since the USB connection is only possible between the external hard drive and the PC isn't it? There isn't any interface between the external hard drive and Apple Airport Express, and we can't possibly connect the hard drive directly to the Airport Express. Is my understanding correct?

Thanks in advance.

Thats correct ryder. U can only stream music in the ipod not the music from pc hard disk or external drive.

I just checked with a friend. He advised getting the Ipod Classic over the Ipod Touch and Ipad due to the larger storage capacity(160GB compared to Ipod Touch and Ipad's 64GB max). If using the Ipod Classic, there isn't any need to use a computer as the relatively large storage capacity enables one to store a large music collection in it.

Ipod Classic => Apple Airport Express => DAC

The above solution sounds good to me. If there are better suggestions please let me know.

Thanks elhefe. I reckon there isn't any need to use a computer if using the Ipod Classic. Just import all the favourite songs from the 1TB external hard drive onto the large storage capacity of the Ipod Classic and we're done. Just stream music from the Ipod Classic instead of the computer/notebook.

Cheers.

Coming to think of it, the Ipod Touch's 64GB is actually quite sufficient.

A standard audio CD has an average capacity of 650MB. The Ipod Touch's 64GB is able to store about 98 pieces of CDs. I am thinking if the Ipod Touch is a better proposition than the Ipod Classic since the larger touch screen looks cooler and is easier to operate than the Classic. What do you think?

Ryder, ipod classic cannot stream music. U need ipod with built in wifi. Ipod touch and iphone has that. The 160 GB ipod classic is good to use it in the car if u have a ipod enabled HU.

Yes 64 GB should be sufficient. The idea of ipod is to select yr favourite music to carry them out and about, not as storage because u cannot extract it into another pc.

Elhefe, thanks for the tip. Looks like Ipod Touch is the one.

Cheers.

iPad lah ... its the coolest gadget in town today.

It's an iPod touch and so much much much more.

mugenfoo wrote:iPad lah ... its the coolest gadget in town today.

It's an iPod touch and so much much much more.

Poison poison hehehe. I personally waiting for the official launching of ipad by apple in malaysia. It should be in a couple weeks more. Then nonneed to worry about warranty. I saw in digital mall they are already lowered the price like crazy.

I thought the Ipad was an existing product? You mean the official launching of the Ipad is an updated latest version? What is the price for a 64GB? Initial investigation reveals the price to be around RM2,400-2,800.

The current ipad u see in the shops are not sold by Apple authorised dealer as Apple has not launched it officially in malaysia. Currently, some shops give 3 months warranty, some no warranty. If damaged, Apple will not take it in for repair. If buy at Apple authorised dealer after its launching, get 1 year warranty. I rather wait to get peace of mind.

You are right. Just checked the Apple Store in Malaysia and the Ipad is not featured yet. The Ipad 64GB is now available in Singapore at $1,028, which suggests that the price of an equivalent one in Malaysia will be about RM2,500 or slightly more.

Anybody knows if we can connect the Ipad directly to the DAC with the Ipad dock? If that is possible, we can do without the wireless Apple Airport Express.



iPad Dock
With the iPad Dock, you get easy access to a dock connector port for syncing or charging and an audio line out port for connecting to powered speakers via an optional audio cable. The iPad Dock also supports other iPad accessories, such as the iPad Dock Connector to VGA Adapter and the iPad Camera Connection Kit.

I dont know about iPad but for iPod, this Onkyo ND-S1 dock takes digital signal from ipod and can feed a DAC.

Okay thanks.

I was advised that the ideal way to go with Itunes is to hook up a Macbook or any notebook to the DAC and use the Ipad as an interface to control playback for maximum sound reproduction. No doubt the Apple Airport Express is very convenient but being wireless it has some compromises in sound quality.

I'm still trying to figure out how to make do without a PC. If we can just hook up a 2TB external hard drive to the DAC and use the Ipad to control the music library... I know I am dreaming.

Not sure now the direction you are going with. Your proposed mac to dac connection and control via ipad is no longer streaming as you need to connect the DAC to an amp using RCA cable. Meaning then u need the laptop near yr hifi.

Either wireless(streaming) or non-wireless(laptop to DAC), both methods will still hook up to the DAC. Yes, with non-wireless the laptop will be near the hifi system. This method was said to be ideal for maximum sound reproduction.

Oh yes. If SQ is the priority, go for mac to dac to amp using cables. Thats the best. I tried hooking up my laptop to MF M1 DAC as well and the sound was definitely better then laptop wirelesly to AE to DAC to amp. But again, i went for conveniency and use my CD player for SQ. Although i cant wait for MF CLIC wireless DAC to come out next year.

Bloody hell. I was reading on the Ipad on the Audiogon forums and got to know that there are bluetooth DACs that enable wireless connection to the Ipad, which is even better as it eliminates the Ipad dock. No cables or connectors need apply. The IPad's built-in Bluetooth transceiver allows one to wirelessly output a digital signal to a DAC of whatever quality and/or price most suitable to one's needs. Talking about convenience. Haven't really heard of bluetooth DACs. Interesting.

Are u referring to Chord DAC?

I'm still trying to figure out how to make do without a PC. If we can just hook up a 2TB external hard drive to the DAC and use the Ipad to control the music library... I know I am dreaming.

ryder,
get a logitech touch to play your music files.the touch can receive the music files via wireless streaming,via ethernet cabling,sd card,or via usb input.The usb input can receive files from a computer or even a standalone usb hddisk.the output can be line level analog via its inbuild dac which can accept 24/96?or digital out via coaxial spdif or optical.
THEN:
1 use an ipad/ipod touch/ip4 or any android device as a wireless remote.you even get pics if your files are so tagged
2 get a dac of your choice...whatever brand or specs that floats your boat

there are various software mods to make it sound better and u can always
upgrade the wallwart power supply.Bonus: there are plenty of streaming music channels available...

Yes, the Chordette Gem which is the cheapest bluetooth DAC.

Trebla,
Thanks for the Logitech touch recommendation. I will do some research on it. I was just reading on the Squeezebox Touch on another forum that was recommended to a user who already has an Ipad. Looks like a feasible option that may be worth considering.