Crazy high end and nonsense money~

LOL

Agree mostly but with only 1 cavert.

Having seen how a local phono preamp is designed and manufactured, I also need to point out that you can't just take the component and check the unit price. In many cases, the highest end equipments have very tightly matched components and relatively very high reject rates.

So what the high end manufacturers do is that they have very tight tolerances for things like PCB and casing, etc, rejecting any that doesn't meet the specs. This in turn drives up the manufacture cost for those items, especially if they are out-sourced. So we can't just go check up the cost of the standard teflon PCB and use that as the unit price. Because it is likely the high end manufacturer paid a lot more.

Then the individual components like resistors, capacitors, etc especially in a dual mono configuration, are very tightly matched, can be to the level of 0.5% accurary or higher. What the high end manufacturers do is they buy a huge quantity. Then they station a technician whose job is to match pairs of components to the required degree of tolerance. This -can- mean that a technician can work the whole day and in the end, come up with only a dozen or so sets of matched pairs. Imagine having a pile of 2,000 units of 450Ohm high grade resistor. Now you need to go find 20 pairs each within 0.1% of each other, meaning it can only range from 449.55Ohm to 450.45Ohm. So you need to select 1 resistor, measure it and then you might end up checking all the rest of the 1999 resistors before you find the other half of the matched pair. And if any resistor is to vary outside of your tolerance, you have to reject them.

So this first of all increases the unit price of each resistor. Then you you may not necesarily be able to use all 2000 units. Finally, the cost of the testing station and the labour cost of the technician. All this can mean the unit cost of a resistor balloons up to as much as double or triple the standard cost.

If we say the internal components adds up to 30% the cost of the equipment, then the overhead of tolerance matched pairs, if it triples the cost of the components, that means component costs alone is 90% the price of the component already.

And we have not talk about factoring in R&D cost, design cost, patent rights, manufacture costs, overheads and of course most importantly, manufacturer, distributor and dealer MARGIN (I would be interested to meet the manufacture/distributor/dealer who is willing to continously sell his stuff at cost price. They WON'T EXIST).

Reality check in general:
Hifi stuff will continue to be expensive in Malaysia for various and obvious reasons.
Used hifi is selling very well in Malaysia. It'll continue to thrive.
Many well known hifi shops seem to thrive and prosper well in their own strategy, after their initial struggle establishing themselves in the market.
DIY is only for select few and largely depend on parts availability, skill, ultimately the cost of it all.
Keep what one have and don't look higher, considering great luck already had for owning the best what they could have acquired and afford.

adrian,
Can you share with us some pics that you have been ogling at?

Something that cost £200 in UK and cost Rm1200 here in Malaysia. OF COURSE its like paying silly money!.. Sorry folks, Its how things revolve around here. Want to be on par, either live there or you can easily afford it from your earnings here.

adrian4454 wrote:Hmm… can the audiophile society decide of a model and brand; and we order 10’000 units of it? I believe it can bring the price down by 60%..~

If such an bulk order can indeed be placed, I believe any manufacturer will give you a reasonable price.

The Retail Price will have added in other cost, not just manufacturing ie distribution, admin and also R&D. Not forgetting the profit element.

If indeed, you can place bulk order to sustain the manufacturer for a few years (ie contractual manufacturing), then the price will indeed can be down by 60%.

But alas, its so simple to say, but who have the resources to materialise the word.

For 10,000 unit of a mid to high end hifi, you can start a plant yourself, i believe :-)

Oh about the tight tolerance of parts... forgotten about that one. You are right WongKN. but instead of themselves rejecting the parts; the supplier of the components will select those measured favorably or within their given tolerance to the equipment manufacturer.
The tighter the spec, the lesser component qualified. And I believe this additional work load is being charged handsomely back to the equipment manufacturer. Which in turn double charge back to us~

Hi Carz,
This is the "Porn site" I am checking.. many many superstar equipments post naked there..hahaha. some are really really mouth- watering. though can't understand what language of the site using.

http://www.avx.hu/forum/index.php?showtopic=6244&st=4640

I was told that you can build an Ongaku clone for around RM20k or so. The material used would be somewhat close to what is used by Kondo.

But would it sound the same?

And would you have the same pride of ownership?

I dunno.... just my 2 sen worth.

If one have equal passion along with near equal skill of Kondo San on amplifier building, then there's a chance. Building amp, yes, anyone can talk of building amps and soldering it all together, its more than meet the eye and certainly not just about putting parts altogether to achieve the same result. Perhaps a 100% clone with same materials and workmanship, perhaps can come close. A lot of tube amps are finely tuned and voiced in the final test stage by ear, not by book calculations.

On a side note:

if someone can afford to pay RM500K for some piece of hifi equipment (which probably only costs RM2K or less to manufacture), it would be wiser to learn how this extremely well-off consumer made his wealth and learn a lesson or 2 from him, instead of falling into this trap called the "sour-grapes" syndrome which unfortunately, alot of people are afflicted by.

another side note:

Someone who spends in the stated fashion would in my opinion have more Sens than sense and doubtful would be in any position to impart anything meaningful. Perhaps he was born into a rich family.

Hermes handbag ........ RM35000, and they put you on the waiting list for 5 years. These ladies actually pay in advance and WAIT. Now, that is what i call crazy hi end and nonsense money!!!

It's their money and to them it may worth the full retail. Snake-oils, nonsense or otherwise. Doesn't necessarily apply to high-end audio but other fields as well. Good things don't come cheap. On the other hand, good sound doesn't need to be expensive. Complicated isn't it?

sanguine wrote:another side note:

Someone who spends in the
stated fashion would in my opinion have more Sens than sense and
doubtful would be in any position to impart anything meaningful. Perhaps
he was born into a rich family.

ongaaron wrote:Hermes handbag ........ RM35000, and they put you on the waiting list for 5 years. These ladies actually pay in advance and WAIT. Now, that is what i call crazy hi end and nonsense money!!!

Whether some people are born into rich family or not, has got nothing to do with sour-grapes syndrome. One need not be "poor" (or "rich" for that matter) to be afflicted by this malaise.

And so before one judges whether a handbag or piece of hifi gear to be "crazy hi end and nonsense money", there are always more extreme examples and they come in all shapes and sizes. Could be cars, watches, yachts, etc...

After all, money is just money. Its merely means to get whatever one desires.
If one has the money , then one has the power of choice to decide for their own if they would buy something whether its a RM3K Audiolab amp or a RM200K FM-Acoustic amp (brands just for examples). For those who don't have the money or have the money but not willing to splurge on such lavishness, well and fine, and rightfully use their money ELSEWHERE how they see fit.

But one should not be so righteous to say that people who buy RM200K FM-Amps are "ridiculous and spending nonsense money" instead.

By personal experience, if one has been fortunate enough to be invited to listen to some extreme top end systems (ie, Clearaudio Statement, USD120K just as the source TT alone) and also interact with their owners who are mostly simple & down-2-earth folk, who would dare say if these people are spending "nonsense-money" here?

There is also many a hifi enthusiast who has spent a handsome fortune buying pretty much the same article of hifi equipment over and over again. Akin to some sort of private collection of sorts ... amps, source gear, speakers, etc. would this be lumped as spending "nonsense money" or this collector having more "sens than sense" ?


The point being here is : Who are we to judge that is more sens than
sense? Unless of course someone here has taken some holy vows &
decided to shun all things material already. But then again, what is he
doing in a hifi forum ... ? perhaps a mis-click on his browser while on
the way to spiritual.org or sourgrapes.net

.....and likewise, someone who spends 500k on a piece of hifi equipment or any other does not make him an astute business person.

sanguine wrote:.....and likewise, someone who spends 500k on a piece of hifi equipment or any other does not make him an astute business person.

By personal experience on interaction with owners of such systems... those people who have a RM500K system, no , lets make its RM1Mil system ... usually they already have a Ferrari in the porch (besides their everyday BMW or Merc daily driven or chauffeur driven cars), live in a swanky home somewhere in some hilltop overlooking the Klang Valley (or whichever city you like) .. (yes, i've personally been fortunate enough to be invited to such houses). And they probably own a few houses here and there anyways.

And they've made their fortunes in one lifetime, and yes they are deemed "businessmen". OK, not all, some are Corporate figures but nevertheless, well-to-do by anyone's definition already.

So, do humour me .... how does it NOT make them an "astute business person".

I detect a massive bunch of Grapes-gone-bad here ....

Thank you for your many insights.

Mugen, i see you dislike sour grapes a lot. Must have eaten a lot of those eh ?

LOL

Would not argue these are astute individuals or businessman......

Come to think of it.....does these individual or individuals with loads of cash to spend on something material ever contributed to charity...or adopted a child or family in real need of daily materials....it's any ones guess They could have....but there are the buts and if's.....

Yeah... one can say its their hard work, their cash and they are reaping the benefits but nothing beats, seeing a child gobble down a packet of biscuits ( a luxury item ) in a few minutes....the family daily food is just porridge... at times one meal a day....the family homes leaks.... the only bread winner in the family gets RM300....as salary... the rent / utility bill.... to take care off....The luxury item in their home is a bed and piped water.....

Just imagine how many mouths can be fed... how many children could get a decent education...

Seen that and .....rest is history....

RM1Million on a hifi gear or RM35K for a handbag ....please.....

End of the day it's these individuals cash and their decision. But think of the unfortunate who are in need.....

Sour grapes if its taken negatively and sweet grapes if its taken in a positive note....

cheers

Wingman,

Its a matter of the value system one subscribes to and as you rightly say, its their money and they should spend it in anyway they see fit. In that respect I agree whole heartedly with you, Mugen and Ryder. That point was never in contention.

It was said that if someone spends RM500k on something which probably costs RM2k then he has the means/wealth and we could learn from him how to make money.

Two parts to my response. The first was simply to say, it would be wrong to assume that anyone who has an expensive system, has an acute business acumen. There are the fortunate few who have come into money in other ways such as that lucky soul who just won the RM17m lottery or perhaps if one inherits the money or comes from a rich family.

Now the other point was and I admit, I realise Mugen was exaggerating (couldnt resist the opportunity to yank his chain) but if one knowingly spend RM500k on something worth $2k to manufacture then no matter what anyone says, to me such a person has more sens than sense.

Anyway the exchange was for fun.

wingman,
Are you questioning the rich individuals whether they give to charity or not??
Is this fair to just pick on them because they are rich ? Why not also the middle class or the working class individuals who have the extra cash to indulge in the hobby as well ?

I am sure that a lot of rich individuals as well as the lesser rich do so, in their own way and in relation to their capabilites. Some year ago, over a seminar/lecture dinner, i was sitted beside a young lady and i asked her what she did for a living...and she said that she runs her family's foundation. A small foundation that i have never even heard about. Yeah rich people do, but many they do it quietly.

What you are saying that it is such a waste indulging so much money in such a luxury hobby, which could have gone to helping the needy. If that applys to them, then it also applies to you to in "equal propotion". The question is, would you instead of spending RM20,000 in hifi (or whatever amount you do spend), give half away to charity and live on a lesser system ? Or better still give the full RM20,000 away, because "it is such a waste" ?

The RM 20K or half of that, is a big luxury to to those, to quote you, whom "The luxury item in their home is a bed and piped water"

If you yourself indulge in such a luxurious hobby, how can you question other who have earned they money and their right to spend on some better and bigger to bring joy to themselves ?

After all why bother becoming rich if you cannot spend the money?

Come to think of it, if all the rich individuals have not the motivation to become rich and run businesses, what would become of the economy? There would be no businesses, no jobs, no GDP, no money ! Then even the working class (if there is a working class anymore) would not even have the money to give to charity.

And most of all we will not have any money to spend on our hifi's

BTW, would you question Bill Gates on his ultra luxury mansion ?

woh.. I really love how this shit pot has turned out. This is kind of esteemed school debate competition will most likely be, on the same topic. Anyway, no personal insult and fanatic after thought should take place; I think we all are adults enough not to get emotionally attached to this madness~~

On the "500k that is worth 2k to manufacture" matter, this is plain stupidity.. if there is seriously such product; and that someone really bought that... it is more stupidity than sense.

The most likely situation will be "500k that is worth 150k to manufacture"... remember the 20~30% ratio ya... so it is still more sense than sen~, in many sense way, this is still logically acceptable.

carz wrote:Mugen, i see you dislike sour grapes a lot. Must have eaten a lot of those eh ?

Eaten? Not quite. But came across alot of people who have sour-grapes syndrome , too many... Hope you are not one of them of course.

wingman wrote:

RM1Million on a hifi gear or RM35K for a handbag ....please.....

End of the day it's these individuals cash and their decision. But think of the unfortunate who are in need.....


cheers

wingman, you might wanna re-check your browser or Internet settings while you're at it coz last i checked, this website mentioned something about "hi-fi" & equipment, not kiva.org or thehungersite.com

RM35K for a Hermes handbag, or RM40K for a Gryphon/Jeff Rowland/Burmeister amp ....
why not? All are also luxury items, just that one appeals more to the
fairer sex, to other as "big boys' toys".

If one wants to be so noble about everything, then please sell off even your most basic hifi equipment because it already falls into the luxury-category and redirect such money to kiva.org instead....

Y'all know about http://kiva.org right ... ?

No, no real interest to get into the rich and their ways. I know very good rich people and I have also had a (regretable) encounter with real shitty rich people. There are all kinds of people in this world. As for charity, I am always of the opinion that charity begins at home. First we should take care of ourselves. Then we should also take care of our closest ones. The grey line comes where we question whether we should spend RM10k on that new CD player or whether we should spend the money taking the family including our parents on a holiday. Charity is always good and I always believe we do whatever we can. Doing charity is never too small or too trivial. And if we are fortunate enough to be given an opportunity to make a difference to the needy ones, then I believe the difference between 'good' and 'not so good' is whether we are willing to spend the time and effort to grab the opportunity. I know very well how it feels to have helped the needy. The gut wrenching feeling of watching handicapped children for e.g. is not something everyone can stomach. But the feeling of having helped in a small way, that is undescribable. OK, enough from me.

I actually wanted to add one thing to this equation of how much an equipment is perceived to be worth. There are two aspects to this for everyone's consideration.

1. There is a saying in economics that the worth of an item is really dictated by how much people are willing to pay for it. Take for e.g. our share market. The actual share price at any one time, in our KLSE, VERY SELDOM reflects the fundamental worth of that counter. It is always what the speculators feels it is worth. So too in HiFi. How much is one willing to pay for a power amplifier ? If someone announces he is willing to make a 'statement' in power amp but wants RM1mill for it, then the only criteria is whether someone is willing to pay for it. This is actually the principle of supply and demand, and of economics. BTW, this is also what is called 'capitalism' and has been the sour point between the free world and the communist world (aka Mao Tse Tong era).

2. In the I/T industry, we have this concept of 'intangible asset'. There is a term used in many big I/T companies, and we call it EBA. Stated simply, in a big I/T company, there may be many people who are able to do a particular job. So what stops a company from firing all the more senior people and just retain the junior ones because they do the same job. Ask a careful customer/client and they say they want to senior more experienced guy. In fact, I have customers who -demand- that I do a certain project or else they will give it to someone else who will install a different software or solution for e.g. The big difference is CONFIDENCE, COMFORT feeling. The is the intangible 'SECURENESS' that we often laugh at ladies who value it so greatly when considering a marriage for e.g. This is the fact that how much confidence one has that a project will complete with flying colours, versus one done by a new guy who makes mistakes, brings the production server down a few times (costing the business millions of ringgit), and so forth.

In hifi, we often pay a premium for 'brand names'. Some people laugh at those who do so. But have we stopped to consider that we are basically paying for 'peace of mind' ? I.e. (at one time) if we want to buy a real powerful amp that can drive anything under the sun, we buy a Krell. We can spend a lot less money and buy an Aragon for e.g. Or even an unknown brand like Sunfire. But how much confidence we have on that amp, versus the Krell ? And how much better we are confident the Krell will sound better. After all, the components that goes to build the Krell probably doesn't cost a lot more than what goes into an Aragon 4004 or Sunfire amp ?

All these are for your consideration.

Mugen,

>>>Eaten? Not quite. But came across alot of people who have sour-grapes syndrome , too many... Hope you are not one of them of course. <<<

You are a lucky man, then ! I have eaten quite a few ......i can tell you it sucks

Jealousy is a malady that is very common, and it is in fact quite innate in human beings. It manifest itself in various degrees. It is also insidious...sometimes a person may be filled with jealousy, and may not even realise it himself.

The more spiritually enlightened beings acknowledges it, and cultivates their mind to rid themselves of this and other maladies.

It is listed as one of the 7 poisons in the christian tradition and also one of the maladies that we should strive to rid of / or reduce in the Buddhist tradition.

And to your question, No, i am of the sweeter kind

wingman,
Hope you will take my response in the spirit of a debate. It is not and never meant to be a personal insult to you.

LOl Crazy hi end system for people Crazy Income .......Rolando 2million rm per week . im just factory worker ...


How Budget and old system 2nd come to crazy price ?

Well, you don't really have to be a millionaire to own a spanking system. I've known people who've done it for less than RM30K. Even my father's only son has done it.

Sometimes the more money you have, the more you buy with gay abandon and end up with an "over the top" sound. People who have less tend to think and think again before they commit to anything because every dollar spent matters more to them/me. So shoot me for generalizing if you must but I have been satisfied for a while now and without the urge to upgrade. Some call this state "audio heaven".

i am now reviewing an fm acoustics preamp tht costs maybe rm50-60k new.

1) it is true that suppliers will send high-toleranced plus-minus 1% components to manufacturers upon request at higher price.
but high-end manufacturers like fm acoustics test each transistor, resistor, etc, individually inhouse to find matching ones.

2) when i met peter qvortrup of audio note, he said he goes to great lengths to source raw materials from the best sources. i recall he said something about getting tantalum from only one supplier who could deliver tantalum of the right purity at a higher price.
his interconnects and speaker cables are made by only one company - in germany i think - that can make it the way he wants it. and the factory has to stop production of all other wires tht it makes so that they can concentrate on making just one batch of audio note wires. in effect, he is 'renting' the entire factory to make his product. obviously the factory will charge him for loss of income, etc.

3) high-end companies pay lots of money for specialised components made in small quantities just to get the right sound.

4) for e.g. a pair of diamond tweeters made by accuton costs US$5,800. and that's just the tweeters - what abt the mid and woofer? what abt the cross overs? what abt the r&d? that's why the marten speakers cost plenty $$$.

one pair of accuton diamond tweeters at rm17,690 costs more than my pair of atc scm 40s.

just one pair of silver-gold inductors made by mundorf costs plenty of $$$ which can buy one pair of lower end speakers. many high-end companies like magico use mundorf inductors in their crossovers.
look at the amt of proprietary technologies used in the magicos, for e.g. - that's why the entry-level v3 costs rm60k plus.

back to the fm acoustics preamp. wld i buy it? yes, if i have the cash.

carz wrote:Mugen,

>>>Eaten? Not quite. But came across alot of people who have sour-grapes syndrome , too many... Hope you are not one of them of course. <<<

You are a lucky man, then ! I have eaten quite a few ......i can tell you it sucks

Jealousy is a malady that is very common, and it is in fact quite innate in human beings. It manifest itself in various degrees. It is also insidious...sometimes a person may be filled with jealousy, and may not even realise it himself.

The more spiritually enlightened beings acknowledges it, and cultivates their mind to rid themselves of this and other maladies.

Good, at least someone here sees the big picture.

The worst kind of disservice anyone can self-curse themselves is nothing more than their own pure jealousy which in-turn manifests in the form of them decrying big lavish spendings as foolish or nonsense or labelling others as not being astute or otherwise. But all these only stems from their own self-inadequecies and their own jealousy (aka sour-grapes syndrome), hence the need to cry out on whatever seems to be big spending in their own little cash-strapped world.

If some people can afford and are willing to spend RM1Mil on a system, wish them well and hope to get a chance to sample it as well. Instead of rubbing it off as being excessive or nonsense.

Lets hope no one here has fallen into this sour-grapes trap.

sflam wrote:i am now reviewing an fm acoustics preamp tht costs maybe rm50-60k new.

Spoiler:

1) it is true that suppliers will send high-toleranced plus-minus 1% components to manufacturers upon request at higher price.
but high-end manufacturers like fm acoustics test each transistor, resistor, etc, individually inhouse to find matching ones.

2) when i met peter qvortrup of audio note, he said he goes to great lengths to source raw materials from the best sources. i recall he said something about getting tantalum from only one supplier who could deliver tantalum of the right purity at a higher price.
his interconnects and speaker cables are made by only one company - in germany i think - that can make it the way he wants it. and the factory has to stop production of all other wires tht it makes so that they can concentrate on making just one batch of audio note wires. in effect, he is 'renting' the entire factory to make his product. obviously the factory will charge him for loss of income, etc.

3) high-end companies pay lots of money for specialised components made in small quantities just to get the right sound.

4) for e.g. a pair of diamond tweeters made by accuton costs US$5,800. and that's just the tweeters - what abt the mid and woofer? what abt the cross overs? what abt the r&d? that's why the marten speakers cost plenty $$$.

one pair of accuton diamond tweeters at rm17,690 costs more than my pair of atc scm 40s.

just one pair of silver-gold inductors made by mundorf costs plenty of $$$ which can buy one pair of lower end speakers. many high-end companies like magico use mundorf inductors in their crossovers.
look at the amt of proprietary technologies used in the magicos, for e.g. - that's why the entry-level v3 costs rm60k plus.

back to the fm acoustics preamp. wld i buy it? yes, if i have the cash.

And most people don't realise that just the steering wheel assembly alone on an F1 car costs more than a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord.

Carz / Mugen....

Why all these tensed response ...its a general statement .... if we could give a certain percentage back.....and still could enjoy the hobby....

Did I say that these individuals do not contribute nor any one of you ? Did I say they should not enjoy their hard earned cash whether they are from the upper or the middle or lower crust of the population ?

Carz... yes I have a far far far much lesser system in my setup.... yes...i do give to charity in the way I could and in similar fashion as the individual who have the surplus cash. Let's not get it confused with "jealousy" or sour grape or what not....its a general statement....

Also all religion teaches their followers that to be mindful of the less fortunate as well...correct ?

No worries...its part of a view that each one of us have.....

Mugen....on a lighter side.....

Generally my response to you would be along these line....

Ohhh... I thought this was a charity site... .....but no...my real comment would be this..... will take your comment in a positive note....but you need to chill. Don't get so worked up....

Let's not belittle or make assumptions....of any individual...appreciated.

Each has their right to comment and respond as well.

cheers

wingman wrote:
Ohhh... I thought this was a charity site...
.....but no...my real comment would be this..... will take your
comment in a positive note....but you need to chill. Don't get so worked
up....

Let's not belittle or make assumptions....of any individual...appreciated.

Each has their right to comment and respond as well.

cheers

ok wingman, So ... if can you admit that you might also desire that "next level upgrade" from time to time, to your speaker / amp / CD player, etc etc .... and do so without having to put down the ultra high end models due to envy, then good for you.

Or if you don't desire such upgrades, but can at least appreciate that as with most things, you get what you pay for even for the most extreme examples. Then you won't be so quick to dismiss the high-end stuff as nonsense.


Now Generally speaking here:

But for those who do not dabble in the high-end stuff (for whatever reason and no one is looking down on them except themselves on their own inferiority complex), and then condemn the high-end stuff out of envy or jealousy, so sorry for them. No one has belittled them except by themselves, to themselves.


The fact is that hi-fi enjoyment is an indulgence already, so why put a
limit into this and and bring in comparisons to reasons of charity or
other supposely more holy pursuits. And if indulging in this "hifi hobby" would bring forth such feelings of inferiority and envy, then its time for that individual to start looking for a less-stressful hobby already. Because if getting involved into hifi somehow ends up making one feel inadequate, then the hobby has lost all meaning to the person already. Not that the hobby is at fault, but perhaps due to some "kiasu" or "jealous" inferiority complex of that person. But this can be a topic for another forum and not about hifi anymore.

Perhaps can try http://forum.hobbypsychology.com or something...

mugenfoo wrote:

Mugen....thats the spirit.....my boy....

cheers

wingman wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:

Mugen....thats the spirit.....my boy....

cheers

same back to you , uncle ...

If you earned it, spend it whatever way you deem fit so long as you don't cause anguish and pain to others.

As for those who don't like the inequality of life, work harder. When you get there, your views will change.

Now..... where's that next dollar coming from....

RobA4 wrote:If you earned it, spend it whatever way you deem fit so long as you don't cause anguish and pain to others.

As for those who don't like the inequality of life, work harder. When you get there, your views will change.

Now..... where's that next dollar coming from....

Looks like hot LZ here

Couldn't afford those really high-end stuffs

But, with enough hardwork and savings (also lucks and poisons), I managed to acquire some 'entry' hi-end equipments. Then, I start to understand this : "it separates men from boys". I am happy with what I have now even though I have auditioned many high-end systems. I know my limitation (ain't have thick wallet).

My next upgrade..... a matching pre for my power amp. Now, let me start off with my 'self visualization' to make my wish list materialized.

Buy the best you can afford and if you cant, safe up and be patient.There is a saying that a poor man spends twice.Trust your ears and do not be sway by professional reviews or your friends opinions.Froget that EGO attitude as it causes a thin wallet and sometimes unsatisfactory results.Due to emotional purchases,I have fallen into a few potholes and hopefully wont happen again.
"Confession of a review beliver" Ha! Ha! Ha!
Signed.

As with everything in life, having good 'yan yuen' (people's luck) is important. Like life itself, if we have good friends who are sincere and willing and able to show us the way, then we will have a clear path to audio nirvana, just like what htkaki found. However, it is also crucial that we ourselves be 'worthy' of being helped. And that means having open mind, being a good friend in return, and in general, just being great people. Good things comes to those who works hard to deserve it. At least that is what I believe.

"Yan Yuen". I'm a practitioner and believer too. Now how do you define that in English. Humility?

I am always of the view that you have only yourself to blame if you are not where you think you should be.

If you cannot afford that dream hifi gear, either you work hard and smart for it or lower your expectations.

That said... there is far more to life than hifi. Balance is crucial.

So.... let's not get all edgy about this....there is a place for everyone in every aspect of life.

Cheers!!!

bimmerman wrote:"Yan Yuen". I'm a practitioner and believer too. Now how do you define that in English. Humility?

The word you want is affinity. Yuen means affinity. Yan Yuen means 'affinity with other people'. Hope this helps...

Affinity! Thanks 10-10.

WongKN wrote:As with everything in life, having good 'yan yuen' (people's luck) is important. Like life itself, if we have good friends who are sincere and willing and able to show us the way, then we will have a clear path to audio nirvana, just like what htkaki found. However, it is also crucial that we ourselves be 'worthy' of being helped. And that means having open mind, being a good friend in return, and in general, just being great people. Good things comes to those who works hard to deserve it. At least that is what I believe.

I have to say a BIG THANK YOU to all sifus for your guidance, tips, knowledge, and utmost importance; POISON.

Did not expect you guys are so patient with a HT freak like me since hi-fi and HT do not make a 'good marriage'. I am really glad that I had the opportunity to audition some really good hi-fi systems. It did open up my view and knowledge on hi-fi.

Thank you, guys!

Crazy high end chase, money is only issue when our mind becomes ignorance, so leave the innocent "HI-END" alone.