Subwoofer for Hifi

I'm looking for a small sub to use dedicatedly with my stereo setup (something reasonable and not too expensive). Is Velodyne Impact mini a good enough sub for music low bass reproduction. Anyone has any experience willing to share.

Any other recommendation also most welcome. Thanks.

hi arremie, would u mind sharing to us what setup n speakers r u using? there r so many sub in the market some produce u with clear bass line from 20hz n above n some give the same frequency but with a bit more punch because of HT system setup n the bottom line is what is your real budget u have in mind?

Try find a used REL Strata series
which is excellent with music

alfred wrote:hi arremie, would u mind sharing to us what setup n speakers r u using? there r so many sub in the market some produce u with clear bass line from 20hz n above n some give the same frequency but with a bit more punch because of HT system setup n the bottom line is what is your real budget u have in mind?

My setup is simple. cdp, tube amp and Loth BS II full range bookshelf. Do we really need sub that can go below 30hz for music. Im not gonna use this sub with HT. Already got a sub for that.

mofaz wrote:Try find a used REL Strata series
which is excellent with music

Thank you sir.

Arremie...

Was trying out Computer subwoofer ( active ) types...the BASS was complementing the overall music. It gives character to the type of music I played, slightly heavy and soothing. And turning off the sub...and the difference can be heard.

The cost was not an overkill either.

cheers

Yup, that should compliment and suit your own preferences, not allow others to poison you that you must have this or that. What suits you matters most, cheap, expensive, whatever. I wouldnt give a damn to what others may think if I permanently patch an Altec Lansing multimedia subW to my LS3/5a's. Spend more on music is beneficial than wasting effort on the shortcomings of the overall sonics. Enjoy the music man!

Arremie,

I will only add for the music, as you are playing stereo, so either the subwoofer have stereo input, or you use two subs. You can also use a Y-connector and join the two channels into one for input to the subwoofer. Ideal is you have two output from your pre-amp, or a variable output from the power amp so that the signal to the subwoofer is different from that going to the power amp or the signals to the speakers. The alternative is to route the signal first to the subwoofer, then filter it, and feed the output back to the power amp. This introduces a level of degradation to the sound and is not preferable.

wingman wrote:Arremie...

Was trying out Computer subwoofer ( active ) types...the BASS was complementing the overall music. It gives character to the type of music I played, slightly heavy and soothing. And turning off the sub...and the difference can be heard.

The cost was not an overkill either.

cheers

computer sub? really? interesting....what brand and model?

WongKN wrote:Arremie,

I will only add for the music, as you are playing stereo, so either the subwoofer have stereo input, or you use two subs. You can also use a Y-connector and join the two channels into one for input to the subwoofer. Ideal is you have two output from your pre-amp, or a variable output from the power amp so that the signal to the subwoofer is different from that going to the power amp or the signals to the speakers. The alternative is to route the signal first to the subwoofer, then filter it, and feed the output back to the power amp. This introduces a level of degradation to the sound and is not preferable.

my integrated tube amp only got speaker out so my only option is to use speaker line level to sub and from sub line level out to speakers. im not looking for state of the art sub. any good (preferably sealed) sub which will add tight lower bass to the sound will do. was wondering for you guys who add a sub into your setup, what brand and model you use. i dont not want bass all over the place like my ht sub. also i need the smallest sub possible bcoz of space constraint.

Using REL subs connection is via Hi Level connect to spkr out terminals of the integrated amp using REL supplied Neutrik Speakon connector. Signal fed to the REL sub is the exact signal fed to the main spkrs. Look for their previous model, REL Quake the smallest one .. good luck

[quote="arremie"]

wingman wrote:Arremie...

Was trying out Computer subwoofer ( active ) types...the BASS was complementing the overall music. It gives character to the type of music I played, slightly heavy and soothing. And turning off the sub...and the difference can be heard.

The cost was not an overkill either.

cheers

computer sub? really? interesting....what brand and model?
[quote="arremie"]

Hi Arremie....

Model "Edifier" if i am not mistaken its "M3400" series, active sub purchased price less then RM200.00. Take a tour of Low Yat...quite a few "stores" carrying various types and makes.

Not discouraging you from getting something better, just my personal preference and fits my needs..... am spending more on getting LP's / CD's.

cheers

mofaz wrote:Using REL subs connection is via Hi Level connect to spkr out terminals of the integrated amp using REL supplied Neutrik Speakon connector. Signal fed to the REL sub is the exact signal fed to the main spkrs. Look for their previous model, REL Quake the smallest one .. good luck

i was looking at quake but the model is like 10 years ago. should i be concern of the reliability. it's still selling above 2k. might as well get new unit of t3. i like the look and size of new t5 but cmy said not yet here. any chances in singapore?

wingman wrote:
Hi Arremie....

Model "Edifier" if i am not mistaken its "M3400" series, active sub purchased price less then RM200.00. Take a tour of Low Yat...quite a few "stores" carrying various types and makes.

Not discouraging you from getting something better, just my personal preference and fits my needs..... am spending more on getting LP's / CD's.

cheers

interesting. will surely go looksie2 at lp. thanks.

rel t3 at 2.5k is it a good price...

Arremie,

Just to share a bit on my recent foray in the sub world...

As some of our fellow forummers and even moderators (note plural) whom have had a listen to my Maggies noted lack of bottom end. I've recently tried a couple of subwoofers, Rel T1, SVS (can't recall the model), tried my humble Psb 5i from my upstairs HT set up but what I have settled down for is Rhythmic 12, and at a price I considered very reasonable for my budget.

By no means I'm promoting Maxx aka htkaki but I glad I had the opportunity to have them auditioned at home. We're yet to do the sub crawl, which I hope can be done later once I sorted out some cabling issues etc. And I still have issues with my listening area aka living room which seems to have multiple personalities when it comes to the LF/bass reproduction.

Another surprise that I got was when I emailed a friend which is also a major supplier of hi fi cables in the US, enquiring about multiple IC and/or alternatives to connect the sub. I found out that he's using his Maggie 3.6 plus a Rthymik 15 sub!! His exact word is the Rhytmik is not 'good' but EXCELLENT as he previously has used Revel, Rel, HSU subs etc. in his system.

I hope Max won't raise the price of the Rythmik due to this

One last word is to extend my thanx to one particular moderator who actually brought over a sub for me to try out and he's not even selling the stuff..really appreciate that..

thanks bro. one question....can rythmik connect both high level (using speaker out) and low level (using sub preout) at the same time? rel can do that which to my opinion is a big advantage for me since i can use the sub for both my ht and stereo setup without the need to change anything or unplug any cable. then i can sell off my current ht sub and get some cash back.

i understand some people are looking for almost perfection when it comes to lfe but i just appreciate a good and acceptable bass within my budget.

so far my mind fixed on rel t3 but any any other suggestion really appreciated

Arremie,

I haven't tried that out since I don't even get a manual yet for the F12.

It has both line-level connections (RCAs) and speakers in-out (high pass -low pass). I tried the Rel T1 and as you mentioned, the special cables REL provided can be hooked/ straight around the binding post of the amp. Perhaps htkaki can help out since this is my first 'proper' sub for music only; the Psb 5i is used for HT and previously a Rogers SW too for HT. But for the price you mentioned for the T3, I think it's worthwhile checking out the Rythmik, again I'm not promoting per se, just suggesting..

Perhaps you might consider the smaller Rogers (sepuloh inci punya) which can had for around RM500 (less used and I believe proudly made here in Bolehland) if you're looking for acceptable bass. Good luck bro..

The latest models from REL seemed more catered for AV their previous model i.e. Storm, Strata & Quake were more for hi-fi, I pair my REL Strata 5 with ProAc Tablette Reference 8 Sig and they go together really well..

T5 is not here yet in Bolehland. Even CMY has no idea. If I'm going REL way then I have to settle with T3. Can't afford those high end model. I think I should at least audition first before buying.

Hi, Arremie,

The T5's RRP is USD599 at MusicDirect. Not far off the T3 quoted to you, and in my opinion, looks way cooler.

Since you have enquired about the T3 with CMY, did you by any chance, enquire the pricing for the R305?

Cheers

When you guys do comparisons of prices online n local, do you factor in:

- voltage requirements

- shipping costs

- duties

- back up service, especially for electronics.

Just curious ...

Yep, agreed.

However, it is a guide, nonetheless.

Cheers

Yup those 599 price not included shipping. Fedex can cost around 150. Come here got 26% tax lagi. Not to mention the voltage might be 110v. So pay a bit more here should be ok

arremie wrote:Yup those 599 price not included shipping. Fedex can cost around 150. Come here got 26% tax lagi. Not to mention the voltage might be 110v. So pay a bit more here should be ok

Yep, shipping (or to the Yanks, 'freight') may cost an arm and a leg for those odd-shaped and heavy products. A dealer here was forthright with me and 'allowed' me to import a product myself when asked if if they could import/sell a speaker that I wanted because of the freight charges.

On one occassion I got into a series of unpleasant email exchanges with an online dealer Stateside, when I was quoted an amount almost equal to the product he intend to sell after agreeing to buy but I felt he was trying to manipulate the situation. By the way, I don't think music direct sell/ ship to Malaysia except CD, LP etc, not even closeout or demos stuff. By the way, there's a nice Velodyne put up for sale now, summo with remote which you should check out

On personal observation, so far every time I shipped via Fed Ex, it is likely to be charged by the Customs , even a small shipment...

Remy,

The Rythmik F12 PEQ2 amp plate is similar to this :

*Instead of Line Out, PEQ2 amp is HPF Out, which is ideal for music/stereo. Also, it has limiter switch incorporated into the power switch.

Older PEQ amp

I shall take a photo of the PEQ2 amp for you to see.

More info : http://maxx-ht.blogspot.com/2011/05/rythmik-audio-f12-sealed-subwoofer.html

About its servo tech : http://www.rythmikaudio.com/technology.html

zeebee wrote:By the way, there's a nice Velodyne put up for sale now, summo with remote which you should check out

I have CHT series before and I can say not so good with music but excellent for movies

htkaki wrote:Remy,

The Rythmik F12 PEQ2 amp plate is similar to this :

*Instead of Line Out, PEQ2 amp is HPF Out, which is ideal for music/stereo. Also, it has limiter switch incorporated into the power switch.

Older PEQ amp

I shall take a photo of the PEQ2 amp for you to see.

More info : http://maxx-ht.blogspot.com/2011/05/rythmik-audio-f12-sealed-subwoofer.html

About its servo tech : http://www.rythmikaudio.com/technology.html

Thanks bro. I just came back from Senawang. Thinking of dropping by your place but too tired dy so came back straight to PJ. U free next weekend? Wanna pay u a visit

Pulling your buddy together? Roughly what time? You know how to go to my place, right?

Click the blogspot under my post. The map is at the bottom of it.

arremie wrote:
my integrated tube amp only got speaker out so my only option is to use speaker line level to sub and from sub line level out to speakers.

Hmmm, wouldn't this add colouration to the sound?

I wonder if there's a better way to connect a subwoofer in systems that do not have a 'sub-out / pre-out' in their amps (ie: would need to connect the sub using the speaker binding post of the power amp / integrated amp)?

Some amps (including integrated) have two speaker outputs where both can be switch on at the same time. This gives a much better alternative to connecting a subwoofer for audio, where the amp do not have any variable line output. So one pair of binding post (speaker output) goes to the speakers. The other goes to the subwoofer. This configuration works because all subwoofers I have seen takes in stereo input for their speaker input option.

htkaki wrote:Pulling your buddy together? Roughly what time? You know how to go to my place, right?

Click the blogspot under my post. The map is at the bottom of it.

Got it Max but I think will be only me. Our friend kinda MIA lately

cheelun wrote:
Hmmm, wouldn't this add colouration to the sound?

Why? It's just another way of connecting a sub. Nothing change

Arremie,

If you connect the subwoofer from a dedicated sub-out or a 2nd pair of pre-out, then the main signal will not go through the subwoofer. The standard method of connecting is to route the main signal to the subwoofer which then filters out the signal to two parts, a processed main signal with lower frequencies (those handled by the subwoofer) filtered out, and the subwoofer signal which has all the frequencies not handled by the subwoofer filted out.

The main issue is that the main signal is processed (and thus introduction of colourations and degradation) in the subwoofer before being pass back to the amp to the speakers.

Wong KN,

Can we connect both the speaker cable and sub cable (speaker line in) to the same speaker binding post on the power amp / integrated amp (for those amps that have only one set of speaker output without sub out). ie, banana for loudspeaker and spade for sub, all via the output on the amp. Or, modify the banana or spade to include 2 sets cable, one for loudspeaker and one for the sub.

Have anyone tried this?

Mr. Wong, thanks for the explanation. In my case I don't have a choice as my tube amp does not has a sub pre-out so my only option is to use speaker out to sub and then only to speakers.

I'm curious if there's a tube amp with a dedicated sub pre-out. All I know is only AVR has that.

Yes, bass management is usually only available on an AVR. I've yet to find a two-channel preamp for hi-fi use that has a dedicated sub out. Two or three stereo preamp outs is the best.

REL taps the signal from the power amp because it says then both the sub and main speakers are being fed the same quality signal, thus, more consistent results.

Outputting to sub direct from two-output preamp would be my second choice, at least, the power amp still goes direct to main speakers.

Power amp to sub and filtering the signal would not be my way to go.

Anyway, whichever way you approach it, if you're happy with the results, then don't worry too much.

Then again, none of us audiophiles are ever happy for long, are we?

That's why Wilson Sasha ...

Arremie,

Audio Research integrated has a sub-out. It is one of the few tube integrateds I have see that have a sub-out.

After some searching on the net, I noticed that the REL sub do not have 'speaker-out' posts. Maybe, their special Neutrik Speakon connector allows users to connect both the sub cable and loudspeaker cable at the same speaker binding post at the amp end.

Maybe, it is time to pay CMY a visit again.

Sigh, too bad I am in Sabah.

cheelun wrote:Arremie,

Audio Research integrated has a sub-out. It is one of the few tube integrateds I have see that have a sub-out.

After some searching on the net, I noticed that the REL sub do not have 'speaker-out' posts. Maybe, their special Neutrik Speakon connector allows users to connect both the sub cable and loudspeaker cable at the same speaker binding post at the amp end.

Maybe, it is time to pay CMY a visit again.

Sigh, too bad I am in Sabah.

Hi bro

Connecting a sub via the Neutrik Speakon connector allow you to connect any REL subs to any amps via its speaker level outputs parallel with the loudspeaker outputs at the same time. ( left +/left - and right + for connection) With the R505 in my system today, the integration is ' ALMOST ' seamless. REL are great music/audiophile subs, hopeless as movie subs if anyone asked me...

My REL was left on the floor collecting dust in my av room for 2 years before I attempted integration with my audio system one night out of curiosity.. best darn improvement and a great discovery of the magic of REL subs in stereo systems...

I assure you it will be rewarding ( not on the wallet though )

There are two ways for you to integrate a sub into your system. Both have their pro's and con's - it is up to you to decide which one you would rather have.

The first way is like this:

Preamp --> power amp
Preamp --> subwoofer

To do this, your preamp needs to have a subwoofer output. Or, you need a preamp that can output XLR and RCA simultaneously (like mine). Or, you can use a Y-splitter cable on the RCA output. The disadvantage of a Y-splitter is that it doubles the current demand on the preamp, so it is best used with a high gain preamp. It probably won't work very well if you are using a passive preamp.

The other disadvantage of this approach is that your power amp is still amplifying the full range signal and sending it to the speakers. This is not so much of a problem if you have lots of power to spare, but for those of us running lower powered valve amps, you will not gain any dynamic headroom from this approach.

The second approach is like this:

Preamp --> external crossover (XO)
External XO --> power amp
External XO --> subwoofer

The external XO can be a built-in XO in the subwoofer (e.g. Velodyne), or it can be an aftermarket XO like Behringer, Pass Labs, Bryston, Accuphase, etc.

The advantage is that it removes all bass from the signal before sending it to your power amp. This has the following benefits - first, you have more apparent amplifier power. Your amp seems more powerful because it no longer has to amplify bass frequencies. On my system, it is very noticable - dynamics much improved, and the amp can go louder before clipping. Second, your speakers no longer have to handle bass frequencies. This minimizes woofer excursion, leading to fewer break-up modes and will clean up the midbass. Depending on your amp and your speaker, particularly the frequency range your woofers were designed to cover - this could be a very significant advantage!

The DOWNSIDE is that you have more electronics in your signal chain. You are effectively adding another preamp into your signal chain - with volume controls for each band, and so on.

For me, there is a noticable loss of resolution compared to running the speakers directly with no crossover - but this downside is negated by the massive improvements I get in the bass and dynamics.

Which approach works best for you really depends on your system. No matter what you do, you have to weigh up the pros and cons.

dixchen wrote:

Hi bro

Connecting a sub via the Neutrik Speakon connector allow you to connect any REL subs to any amps via its speaker level outputs parallel with the loudspeaker outputs at the same time. ( left +/left - and right + for connection) With the R505 in my system today, the integration is ' ALMOST ' seamless. REL are great music/audiophile subs, hopeless as movie subs if anyone asked me...

My REL was left on the floor collecting dust in my av room for 2 years before I attempted integration with my audio system one night out of curiosity.. best darn improvement and a great discovery of the magic of REL subs in stereo systems...

I assure you it will be rewarding ( not on the wallet though )

Hi, Dixchen,

It's been awhile since we communicated. I am still enjoying your amp

As you can see, my backside is starting to get a little itchy, thanks to Arremie who stirs up the hornets nest (no disrespect to Arremie, though)

Thanks to your explanation, I think I will most likely pay CMY a visit on my next trip to the Peninsular.

I wonder if Rythmik or SVS can be connected to via the same method (albeit minus the Neutrik Speakon connector).

Cheers

Hi bro

That's great, good to know that.

You'll be surprised how the REL's hold their own in terms of ' acoustic ' quality from the bass compared to many others I have heard. Yes I know they are expensive but every single REL I have heard previously old or new and they all share the same qualities!

Explore around when you do come down next time la.

cheelun wrote:
As you can see, my backside is starting to get a little itchy, thanks to Arremie who stirs up the hornets nest (no disrespect to Arremie, though)

As a matter of fact I am flattered

dixchen wrote:Hi bro

That's great, good to know that.

You'll be surprised how the REL's hold their own in terms of ' acoustic ' quality from the bass compared to many others I have heard. Yes I know they are expensive but every single REL I have heard previously old or new and they all share the same qualities!

Explore around when you do come down next time la.

Comment like this make me can't sit properly already....too itchy

Remy,

Here is the photo of the PEQ2 amp as promised :

Cheelun,

Sorry for the late reply. Basically if you try the connection method you described, you are running two speakers in parallel on the amplifier speaker output. I would prefer not to do such things as its impact on the amplifier is not fully known. For a fact the impedance seen by the amplifier is lowered drastically due to the parallel connection. This puts a special demand on the current output from the amplifier. Well, the gist is I much prefer not to do it.

Thanks Max but can't see the pics clearly. I rather see (and hear) it in "live mode" this coming weekend. Still not sure Sat or Sun but I'll buzz you first if I can make it.

WongKN, pardon me but are you saying the way REL do their sub connection using Speakon which is parallel to the speakers are are a bad thing?

No, I wasn't talking about the Speakon method but the method cheelun asked me directly about, about 11 posts above. I have not examined the REL Speakon method close up so I am not able to comment on it.

Actually I remember Max telling me he's got some great value for money made for hifi subwoofers so I assume you are going to check those out this weekend. If you are talking subwoofers, personally I don't think you can go wrong by talking to Max. That guy is a subwoofer freak !

The REL proprietry Speakon connection takes only the signal for the sub, which has its own built in amplifier, the high input impedance of this input ( 100k) prevents it from loading any amplifier. THe designer of these subs would obviously not have designed a sub like that to jack up the impedance of any amps connected to it.

If it is a proprietry connection specially designed to work in that configuration, then I feel it should be OK. A 100K impedance connected in parallel would hardly change the total impedance.

For myself, I prefer to hook up the sub so that I do not degrade the main signal by having it go through the crossover inside the sub. So for my own case, I use the Apogee Centaur Major in normal mode and I also hook up a low-cost china made soundstage subwoofer via the 'Speaker B' output of the Luxman power amp. As the Centaur Major rolls off at slightly below 30Hz naturally, thus I set the cross over frequency of the sub to just below 30Hz. Then it's the matter if scratching the bekside - i.e. avoid being too heavy handed on the gain knob so that the subwoofer don't dominate the system.

WongKN wrote:If you are talking subwoofers, personally I don't think you can go wrong by talking to Max. That guy is a subwoofer freak !

Couldn't agree more

arremie wrote:

WongKN wrote:If you are talking subwoofers, personally I don't think you can go wrong by talking to Max. That guy is a subwoofer freak !

Couldn't agree more

Ya, do let us know your final choice. And also what is htkaki's recommendation to connect to sub in your setting (I believe our systems is not too different).

I was actually thinking about the F12 (piano gloss - not sure if htkaki has it) until your post came up. After all these discussions, REL is in ascendancy. However, looking at the price of the REL's, it is quite prohibitive (am still recovering from the recent IRB 'extortion' exercise)

I guess my old Wharfedale PowerCube 10 will still lie untouched in my store room ( I have trouble connecting it ever since I traded in my AVR to go 2 channel, full time)

Cheers

Ah guys, there is actually another connection option but which is generally not favoured due to its inconvenience. I tried it briefly when I found that my ARC SP9-2, which had two pre-out, won't work properly with a Y-joiner (as my china Soundstage sub is actually for AV and so only have a mono line-in). It works for almost all amps and basically works as follows:

1. For amp, just connect to speakers normally.
2. For subwoofer, use the RECORD-OUT or TAPE-OUT. Connect to the subwoofer directly.
3. THIS PART IS A CRITICAL CONSIDERATION. You NEED to be careful of the gain in the sub. Because you are connecting the recording outputs, the signal is at full gain. This means you can destroy your sub if you leave the gain too high. So you need to adjust the gain on your sub, perhaps many times, when you listen.

Some considerations.

1. It worked for me when I briefly used it because I listen at the same volume for almost all songs. So I match the gain of the sub to the volume setting on the SP9 and it was good to go.
2. Eventually I push my spare Arcam Delta preamp into action. So it was the unusual configuration of one output of ARC SP9 to poweramp, and the other output (I used the pre-out) to the Arcam Delta. I then left the Arcam gain at max, adjusted the gain of ths sub to match the pre. I then was able to adjust the volume on the SP9 without any problem.
3. With connection (2) above, I could actually hear the degradation on the sub, eventhough it was a cheap china made sub and by right, the low-low bass should not be that critical. But the downgrade in quality due to the Arcam was quite significant.

Eventually I used the current connection method, from SPEAKER B of the Luxman (used to drive the woofers) to the sub. It was the best method thus far.

DISCLAIMER : if you try the connection method here, please be extra careful about gain and gain matching. Ultimately you are responsible if you break your subwoofer from too much gain.

WongKN,

I like the DISCLAIMER part.

Remy, can you take a photo of your backside? Erm, I meant the valve amp's rear. You did mention that it does not have pre-out and I suppose it has only a single pair of speaker terminal.

As such, the A300SE amp panel would be ideal in such scenario and not the PEQ2.

Here is the amp plate :

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/images/A300SE.jpg

and the details : http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/A300SE.pdf

Actually, there are 3 different types of amp offered by Rythmik catering for different groups.

The other 2 are :

a. A370XLR : http://www.rythmikaudio.com/images/A370XLR.jpg

Details : http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/A370XLR.pdf

and

b. PEQ2 amp that I posted earlier. This amp is the ver that I am selling.

Of course, we can specially order for you guys.

Becareful once you hooked up ur system with a REL sub for hi-fi you'll never go back and listen to ur set up without the sub..it enhances the bass without overpowering the music ..