Denon DL-103

The DL103R doesn't work with the heavy SME V due to the compliance factor but it sings wonderfully on the Ittok/LP12. Best bang for bucks for the LP12.

This is kinda weird, I thought most conventional wisdom supports the notion that the 103 carts all work better with heavier arms...

Works really good with a heavy 12 inch transcription arm though..

It's not compatible with the SME V due to the compliance factor. Massive tracking errors with the inner tracks but works like a gem with the Ittok.

Tracking force adjustment?

I always thought I was copping flack for using the 103 on a low-medium mass RB300, due to the low compliance requiring more mass to keep it steady...

The 103 and 103R have the same compliance....

JediSavant wrote:Tracking force adjustment?

I always thought I was copping flack for using the 103 on a low-medium mass RB300, due to the low compliance requiring more mass to keep it steady...

The 103 and 103R have the same compliance....

None of those. The compliance is off.

A cartridge's compliance is pretty much the cantilever suspension's "springiness" with respect to vertical loading and horizontal loading.

A cart's compliance should be well matched with a tonearm's "effective mass". One can visualise a tonearm's effective mass as its inertial effects at the headshell when the cartridge moves upwards/downwards and sideways while playing.

Compliance matching with proper tonearm mass is crucial:
Some of the associated problems in cart/arm mismatch are:
1. low freq resonances spilling into the audible range,
2. infra-sonic resonances that might end up stressing the amp and/or woofer drivers.
3. Inner groove distortion (IGD) when the arm plays towards the innermost tracks.

Quick rules of thumb:
High compliance carts (ie, soft spring-rate) go well with low-mass tonearms.
Mid compliance - Midmass.
Low compliance carts (ie, really stiff cantilever suspension) are better suited for high-mass tonearms.

But ultimately, experimentation & experience is the best bet here.
A top dollar arm + a top dollar cart can totally mess up the sound if they are mismatched, while a budget arm + a budget cart can be wonderfully musical when properly matched.

IMO, for the curious experimenter, it might be better to get an arm at the lower mass range, as you can apply some home tweaks to bring up the effective mass (someone suggested sticking wheel balancer weights).


A few good references and some online calculators:

http://www.mh-audio.nl/MySystem/RF.asp

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/tonearmcartridge.html

mugenfoo wrote:IMO, for the curious experimenter, it might be better to get an arm at the lower mass range, as you can apply some home tweaks to bring up the effective mass (someone suggested sticking wheel balancer weights).

I tried something along these lines but used something looking more sophisticated than some ill looking stuff used for fishing.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1032024188&read&keyw&zzstrange+tonearm+tweak
I'm still gauging the performance since last week. I think I've gotten to accept it and haven't reverted.

Just scoped a DL-103 (loaded at approx 200+ Ohms) with a 24/96 ADC Spectrum analyser... i must say, the conical pickup is VERY forgiving especially running it on the Anti skate-adjustment test track (where a pilot tone keeps getting louder and louder until the upper harmonics spike up on the scope). The DL-103 remained stable all the way through with just a smidgen of spike imbalance at the 2nd and 3rd order harmonics. Slight re-dial of the anti-skate, and it was so easy to get both channels to breakup evenly.
Usually, some more exotic line contact and Shiibata stylii would have cried out for help already. But noooo... DL-103, rock steady right up to saturation!

Channel separation was also a super healthy 30+something dB both ways.

DL-103 may not be the most detailed and deep-digging micro dynamics tracker, but it sure knows how to skate smoothly and give tuneful music in abundance.

Talk about the beauty arising from errors of omission! It truly is a bang-for-buck cartridge.

If you have lots of older pressings in used condition, the DL-103 is very forgiving...

just to inform u that asia sound in amcorp mall is selling a zu audio-modified denon 103.

...with an incomplete range of Zu speakers as well, at prices I cannot fathom...

Time to switch to Koetsu!!

JediSavant wrote:...with an incomplete range of Zu speakers as well, at prices I cannot fathom...

Time to switch to Koetsu!!

... or Lyra !

An alternate view of the denon myth........
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/PrintPost.aspx?PostID=46

Romy is full of shit. Read the rebuttals and of course, the physical evidence that's been reported above.

I simply cannot stomach irreverent proclamations based on emotional responses and faulty science. The cart is but one component in an entire sequence. Measurements don't lie plus coupled with what one has set up.

What ?!?!?! 35 Grams of effective mass ?
Romy must have been smoking some serious dope when he wrote that crap. Whats that phrase for "stupid pussy" in Cantonese ... ?

This is the article where the infamous thorsten hantam him kau kau la

Yes full of shit, a Promitheus wannabe....

His theories are intriging and worth investigating. I have the DL103R currently mounted on a FR12 a vintage heavy arm which has an effective mass of 12gm. I need to add speciality headshell weights up to 25 gm. Can anyone tell me if these are available locally....i have seen them online and on fleabay. Or alternatively i could break into my old school science lab and nick a box of those tiny weights we used to use on the weight balance to weigh chemicals. I can't remember though whether they had them in denominations below 50 gm or whether they were imperial ounces

Seriously dude, the DL-103 tracks just fine on a plain vanilla RB-300 arm. Why the need to add any effective mass until its 20+grams ?

I've spectrum-scoped & measured/fourier-analysed/lissajous-plotted/phase-correlated the DL-103 on a plain Rega arm and it DOES NOT NEED 20+grams of effective mass.

If you have done similar technical measurements to show WHY you really need such a laden tonearm, i'm all ears...

If anything one is really trying to achieve with such a high mass setup is that it's only to KILL your precious vinyls faster and accelerate the wear & damage on the vinyl groove walls. You would also need a much-much heavier counter-balancer weight, and this means you're just stressing out the tonearm pivot bearings for nothing either. For every 10 grams you add at the headshell, you probably need 60-70 grams at the counterweight to balance it back. (Physics, Law of Moments: Force X Distance from the Fulcrum). And before you realise it, you'd end up adding half a kilo (ok, i exaggerate for the sake of humour) of dead weight on the poor tonearm just trying to dial-back-in the proper tracking force. What an exercise in futility... You'd better pray that your tonearm is equipped with ABEC-9 Automotive duty bearings to be able to withstand these kind of "experimental-abuses" ...

I beg to differ. Increasing mass in the arm does not necessarily increase wear on the vinyl. Wear is a function of the VTF...which i would maintain at the recommended 2.5gm. My objective is to investigate the effects of effective mass increase on cartridge performance. The denon is said to prefer heavier mass. I would like to experiment with gradually increasing mass and let my ears tell me whether there is any improvement in overall performance. Measurements aside ....isnt the purpose of our shared hobby to enjoy the music and not be overly distracted by the equipment or how it measures on scopes. So diatrides aside.....where can i get those weights???

Wear is a function of VTF, Stylus shape, alignment, AND also overcoming the Inertia that the grooves is wanting the stylus to track.

But heck, if you're hell-bent on committing vinyl suicide (as part of the fun in this shared hobby... of course), you may venture to your friendly neighbourhood car tyre shop and ask for those 5gram lead weights (that they use for sticking to the rims' inner sides for balancing). Ugly, but they do the job just fine.

Good luck on finding a suitable counterweight to dial-back in the VTF as well. (remember... Physics.)

Best of luck on your experimentation.

Oh, one last point ... if its on your LP12, you might wanna recheck the "bounce" of your Lp12's suspension as well... since you're obviously gonna shift the suspended mass' CG by a considerable amount doing so. Those 3 spring dampers are gonna need some re-adjusting for this experiment... i'm pretty sure of it !

And just as a correction to the science lesson... The mass x length on both sides of the fulcrum must be equal to maintain balance. Thus the headshell end having a longer arm length would not require such a high increase in counter weight on the other side. However i do note the extra stress on the bearings ...but we are talking grams here x kilograms. Haiya......so many denonites here lah....

Now i recall denon do offer a lead weight thingee to use with their cartridges. I wonder if that is available locally?

Rajacatur wrote:And just as a correction to the science lesson... The mass x length on both sides of the fulcrum must be equal to maintain balance. Thus the headshell end having a longer arm length would not require such a high increase in counter weight on the other side. However i do note the extra stress on the bearings ...but we are talking grams here x kilograms. Haiya......so many denonites here lah....

What correction? If you're gonna add 10 grams at the headshell 9 inches away from the fulcrum, that means u need to add 50 grams at the counterweight ( assuming your counterweight is 1.8 inches from the fulcrum).

9 x 10 = 50 x 1.8 = 90 Gram-inches of moment-force aka Torque.

Reality check for you, uncle.

Ok noted. Going to source for dat denon headshell weight and see check out the result.

Doesn't the counterweight need to be as close to the fulcrum as possible?

JediSavant wrote:Doesn't the counterweight need to be as close to the fulcrum as possible?

Yes indeed, to reduce the effects of rotational inertia. But not to the point of impracticality that a massive counterweight is needed to counter the weight changes at the headshell.

sflam wrote:just to inform u that asia sound in amcorp mall is selling a zu audio-modified denon 103.

Yah! at Rm2,300? How does US$439 or US$499 translate to 2.3k is perplexing. I wonder if they bundle the thingy with a kodachi sword as bonus.

I saw the Zu DL-103 yesterday. Fantastic looking unit. Looks really well built, and some good care given to make it appear quite potent. The pre-drilled body would make mounting very easy compared to the stock unit, but the lack of a stylus protector baffles me.

However, tempted as I was, no way am I gonna be paying above published overseas retail rates for this unit. Time to call up the cousin in the US....

JediSavant wrote:I saw the Zu DL-103 yesterday. Fantastic looking unit. Looks really well built, and some good care given to make it appear quite potent. The pre-drilled body would make mounting very easy compared to the stock unit, but the lack of a stylus protector baffles me.

However, tempted as I was, no way am I gonna be paying above published overseas retail rates for this unit. Time to call up the cousin in the US....

My friend buy directly from Zu...will check with him how much he paid for it ( all together paid Rm2.8k for PRIME )

JediSavant wrote:However, tempted as I was, no way am I gonna be paying above published overseas retail rates for this unit. Time to call up the cousin in the US....

Perhaps you could write to Zu, intention only to buy the Zu shell and see if they provide services for the modding your existing DL into a new shell. Save some $$?

Good thought Cmboy, but I'm an instant gratification kind of guy and if I were to get the Zu, I'd like to have a stock 103 for comparison purposes as well as for completeness of the 'collection'.... Muuaaaahaahaaaahaa...haaahaahaa...

Fizi, what's PRIME?

Lah! no need to compare, $$ better spent elsewhere. Rather compare LP pressings than keeping spare cartridge for comparison with something modded. Stock 103, you can get anytime, another Zu is a pricy acquisition.
Anyhow, I think you'd know better. your call.

JediSavant wrote:Good thought Cmboy, but I'm an instant gratification kind of guy and if I were to get the Zu, I'd like to have a stock 103 for comparison purposes as well as for completeness of the 'collection'.... Muuaaaahaahaaaahaa...haaahaahaa...

Fizi, what's PRIME?

PRIME is a higher category in ZU Audio Cartridge