Re: High Efficiency / Flea Power

by noodle88 on Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:45 pm

Hi,

Can 2a3 amp capable to drive those speakers?

Cheers,

by Wikin on Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:47 pm

JediSavant wrote:Are those the SPe's???....

Those are the Kit03.

JediSavant wrote:I've heard those plus the AZ-2 and AZ-3....

Many moons ago I heard the AZ-2 at Octave powered by a pair of monoblocks by Vacuum State PP-1C. Very nice sound. But that baby is easily 15W. Not sure how a 2A3 will move them though...

cheers.

by noodle88 on Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:11 pm

Wikin wrote:
JediSavant wrote:Are those the SPe's???....

Those are the Kit03.

JediSavant wrote:I've heard those plus the AZ-2 and AZ-3....

Many moons ago I heard the AZ-2 at Octave powered by a pair of monoblocks by Vacuum State PP-1C. Very nice sound. But that baby is easily 15W. Not sure how a 2A3 will move them though...

I think u need at lease a 300b @ 8w to drive the AZ-2.

cheers.

by JediSavant on Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:34 pm

An EL84 drove the AZ2 pretty well.... But I know, 2A3 is only 3.5 watts....

by noodle88 on Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:33 pm

Well, just give it a try when ur amp arrived. The single driver in Octave my suit ur 2a3 amp more. It's @ 104db/w/m.

Cheers,

by JediSavant on Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:31 pm

Which single driver at Octave?

by 7810sam on Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:55 pm

mthoi wrote:Happy Chinese New Year.

7810 - I am a bit lucky with DIY stuff. I think having a clean power supply and good grounding makes a difference. I have some success using balanced transformers in my set-up and is currently experimenting with some AC filtering designs.

I also realise that having a bi-amping of flea-powered system is the way to go. No matter how efficient the speakers, the woofers would still take-up the major portion of the watts from the amps. I read somewhere that 90% of the watts goes to drive the frequency below 500Hz.

Articles in Sound Practice advocates active crossover and bi-amping, and I wholeheartedly agree! And an active crossover (preferably tube based) seems to be the "preferred" option.

However, tube-based crossovers are more expensive than solid-state active crossovers. I recently build a 2-way solid-state crossover using point-to-point wiring for under RM 150 (using burr-Brown OPA2134 opamp chips, silver-connect wires, mkp1837 caps & holco resistors). It is undergoing testing and sounds promising.

I running a SET 300B with klipsch. The old klipsch xover are very simple one inductor for bass, 2 cap and one autoformer. Spend some time to mod the xover but nil joy. At the end use the new orig type and value cap. The cap are can oil filled. I hv resort to industrial motor(acond) capacitor.
I know klipsch sound more harsh compare to legendary Altec. Is it worth to try active xover?

by dixchen on Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:15 pm

JediSavant wrote:Any recommendations for a 2A3 single ended integrated amp with regards to speaker matching??

Preferably something available locally and I don't mind going down the path of 'boutique' custom made speakers.

What kinda budget bro? I may have something to tickle your interest.

by Wikin on Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:46 pm

dixchen wrote:
JediSavant wrote:Any recommendations for a 2A3 single ended integrated amp with regards to speaker matching??

Preferably something available locally and I don't mind going down the path of 'boutique' custom made speakers.

What kinda budget bro? I may have something to tickle your interest.

Your Audio Nirvana 12" super cast kah ? Laughing

cheers

by noodle88 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:20 am

JediSavant wrote:Which single driver at Octave?

The Ge Pin 12" single driver. The pair of klipsch horn offer here earlier also play well with 2a3.

by Wikin on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:30 am

JediSavant wrote:An EL84 drove the AZ2 pretty well.... But I know, 2A3 is only 3.5 watts....

Bro, which model of 2A3 amp did you purchase may I ask?

cheers

by Wikin on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:49 am

7810sam wrote:

Is it worth to try active xover?

Only if you know how to handle it and set it up correctly.

Just like a high powered turbo car. It's dangerous if one does not know how to handle the power properly.

cheers

by JediSavant on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:26 am

Wikin,

I've ordered the Fi X Integrated 2A3 by Don Garber.

by Wikin on Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:38 am

JediSavant wrote:Wikin,

I've ordered the Fi X Integrated 2A3 by Don Garber.

Oh gawd... send them to me if you wanna turbo charge em... Cool

cheers

by dixchen on Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:01 pm

Wikin wrote:
dixchen wrote:
JediSavant wrote:Any recommendations for a 2A3 single ended integrated amp with regards to speaker matching??

Preferably something available locally and I don't mind going down the path of 'boutique' custom made speakers.

What kinda budget bro? I may have something to tickle your interest.

Your Audio Nirvana 12" super cast kah ?

cheers

No la bro, got a pair of upgraded 99db/w Klipsch Forte II horn speakers I brought in from the US earlier thought wanna let go la.

The Audio Nirvana no longer the super cast liao, have since gone to the Alnico 12. Razz

by fizi on Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:11 pm

My friend also intent to let go Quiksilver mono block using GE8417 Idea

by JediSavant on Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:27 pm

How do you like the Klipsch sound?

I have a pair of 96db Klipsch Tangent 3000, and while very warm, and pushed easily by an EL84 single ended pentode amp, it wasn't the last word in high frequency resolution, although when driven with 75 watts of solid state power, it really opened up, leading me to think that the crossover was sucking quite a bit of juice.

by mthoi on Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:41 pm

JS - I would recommend going to active crossover/biamping and/or to include a super tweeter in the set-up.

My personal experience from a (i) single amp 2-way passive crossover (crossover before speaker), (ii) multi-amp 3-way passive crossover, (iii) passive biamp (passive crossover before amp) and (iv) solid state active bi-amp (now) gives an increasing level of clarity, dynamics, and improvements in soundstaging.

After spending a fair bit on passive crossover components (ERSE foil inductors, mundorf silver oil and clarity caps, mondorf resistors, etc.), is now "bettered" by a SS DIY active crossover at a fraction of the cost.

And having a dedicated amp for watts hungry woofer is a must for flea powered set-up.

by JediSavant on Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:45 pm

Those concepts aren't going to work for me 'cos I just want to set up the 2A3 as a secondary system for very specific music and conditions, in a small room, and near field listening conditions, using reasonably priced speakers that offer appropriate performance.

Furthermore, it's an integrated amp. I won't be bi amping anything it with in a hurry.

by dixchen on Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:26 pm

Different ball park bro, the Forte's ( moreso the II's) are part of the Klipsch line of the Heritage series, mine comes with the complete Bob Crites works upgrade including new upgraded crossovers and new tweeter diaphragms.

99db/w with a 12 inch bass driver plus 15 inch passive radiator at the back for a seamless solid bass output. 99db/w ... far cry from the 95db/w of the Tangents each db/w increase is rather significant.

Second system no need expensive speakers lor...

Walk in the park for the 2A3's Twisted Evil

Anyway am in no means trying to advertise here la... in case someone tells me affraid

OFF TOPIC!! LOL!!!

by JediSavant on Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:31 pm

You're recommending LOL.

Still have the Superfly??

In any case, the amp is still a while away, such is the cost of craftsmanship!!

by dixchen on Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:34 pm

hahahahahaha..

Yes still around la... letting it go cheap if you want it.. already too many sitting around...

Ok I'm half hinting LOL!!! Laughing

by JediSavant on Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:40 pm

Have you played any micro amps thru the Forte's and Superfly's??....

by dixchen on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:37 pm

All my amps are micro power pure dht in single ended mode. As low as 1.5w to about 8w max that's about it. What else you'do think I would use man. Shocked

by 7810sam on Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:50 am

Wikin wrote:
7810sam wrote:

Is it worth to try active xover?

Only if you know how to handle it and set it up correctly.

Just like a high powered turbo car. It's dangerous if one does not know how to handle the power properly.

cheers

You mean the speaker easily get blown.

by mthoi on Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:31 pm

Sam - most speaker drivers are quite durable and gets blown only if there are driven too hard (mismatch between the amp power output and drivers power rating), or DC voltage across the tweeters (since in active/biamping, you would not have a cap in series for the HF in a passive crossover) or surge in power output (e.g. heavy clipping, power transistor failure, etc.).

I think the only variables (i) the crossover point - where it would sound "better". A good start is at the existing crossover point and work from there, (ii) Phasing of drivers polarity, (iii) crossover slopes (I think your KH is a 2nd order butterworth??).

If you use a commercial active crossover, all the issues are addressed, and it provide more features - room EQ, time delay, etc.

I personally think that an active crossover/biamping is the way to go!

Wikin have done a fair bit of rework on Behringer and should be an well versed in setting up active systems.

by noodle88 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:43 pm

Hi mthoi,

Are u going to biamp using the same amp? Or different amp?
I always tought that DHT SET sound very best because its signal path is so simple and consist of minimal component, by adding on so many digital thingy( e x-over, time align) in the signal path, will it defeat the purpose using SET amp?

Cheers,

by mthoi on Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:05 pm

Hi Noodle88 - I am currently using a 2a3/845 SE for the woofers and 300b SE for the mid & super-tweeters in an active set-up. All are horn based.

I agree that having a complex active crossover also adds additional components to the signal path. I have since removed the phase-align and time align circuits. Solved both issues by swapping the +/- connection to the drivers and positioned the drivers to account for time delays.

I am still exploring how far the opamps (OPA627) can go before I consider a tube-based crossover. And choices of filter capacitors.

Now it is just CD source - passive attenuator - active crossover - amp - speaker.

by Wikin on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:15 pm

7810sam wrote:
You mean the speaker easily get blown.

Active crossovers are not a common application for home stereo hence the learning curve for the general public is low.

Hence the possibility of a slight mis-connecting like accidentally swapping the lows to the highs can potentially blow the tweets if one is not careful. This is just one example.

Basically it's not a plug and play solution that the general public consumer is used to.

cheers.

by Wikin on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:17 pm

noodle88 wrote:

I always tought that DHT SET sound very best because its signal path is so simple and consist of minimal component, by adding on so many digital thingy( e x-over, time align) in the signal path, will it defeat the purpose using SET amp?

Cheers,

From my experience and concurring with MTHoi, passive crossover in the speaker is the biggest sin for audio sound quality.

cheers

by noodle88 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:13 pm

Wikin wrote:
noodle88 wrote:

I always tought that DHT SET sound very best because its signal path is so simple and consist of minimal component, by adding on so many digital thingy( e x-over, time align) in the signal path, will it defeat the purpose using SET amp?

Cheers,

From my experience and concurring with MTHoi, passive crossover in the speaker is the biggest sin for audio sound quality.

For those DIY speakers, most of the time YES. But I don't buy the idea of mod and DIY speakers. It's just too easy to be wrong. A good pair of speaker oredy have the best voicing from factory why bother to mod it. Don't like it? Just change it. I always assume my speakers have the correct voicing from factory. Or else don't even think of good sound.

Mthoi,
Have u ever try bi amp using two 845 SET amp but with the original passive x-over? It's much easier to balance ur system with the IDENTICAL Amp. 845 n 300b r different in speed, power, character . How n when can u finish balancing them?

I might be wrong, the choice in always in ur hand.

Cheers,
cheers

by Wikin on Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:21 pm

noodle88 wrote:

But I don't buy the idea of mod and DIY speakers. It's just too easy to be wrong. A good pair of speaker oredy have the best voicing from factory why bother to mod it. Don't like it? Just change it. I always assume my speakers have the correct voicing from factory. Or else don't even think of good sound.

Putting it into another perspective, even low hand hi-enders who buys Ong&ku, Wil$on, Kre!!s etc etc can potentially end up with the wrong sound - Poor imaging, piercing highs, lack of bass, booming mid bass, harsh midrange.

cheers

by noodle88 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Wikin, this is system mismatching, nothing wrong with all the factory/ branded Hifi component, be it speaker, source, pre or poweramp. Ones u mod the component, then it's no longer has the correct voicing which intended.
Who knows those problem cause by wrong power line balancing, room acoustic, vibration control n etc.
My rule is very simple, I like the component voicing I'll buy. Or else no.
Bare in mind, me too a DIYer for more than 15 years non - stop.

by Wikin on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:55 pm

noodle88 wrote:Wikin, this is system matching, nothing wrong with all the factory/ branded Hifi component, be it speaker, source, pre or poweramp.

Goodness gracious I can't believe this phrase at all. Sad

cheers

by Wikin on Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:58 pm

noodle88 wrote:Bare in mind, me too a DIYer for more than 15 years non - stop.

No offence but there are many grades of DIYers too.

cheers

by chewkwokhon on Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:18 pm

Yes, Yes, I wholeheartedly supportive of active crossover.

by mthoi on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:04 am

Interesting view points about commercial and DIY products. Both are equally valid views.

I have a couple of Harbeths that I don't modify since I like them "as-is". I like them for what they are and they provide a "reference" to the qualities in a speaker that I enjoy listening to.

However, I do enjoy experimenting on my DIY Altec speaker and the uniqueness of the sound that it can produce. I have to admit that I enjoy listening to other system for their strengths and trying to emulate (in varying level of success) in my DIY project. I also enjoy very constructive comments from my friends on areas to further improvement in the next DIY effort.

DIY is a bit of an addiction - to some more than others. I suddenly realise that I have spend the cost of more than 4 pairs of SHL5 on my DIY Altec project!

by noodle88 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:40 am

Wikin wrote:
noodle88 wrote:Bare in mind, me too a DIYer for more than 15 years non - stop.

No offence but there are many grades of DIYers too.

cheers

Wikin, agree with u. We are different in level.

by JediSavant on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:29 pm

You know, i'm thinking about switching to a pair of these...

http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/24/ps10-r2/

they would work with all kinds of amps... and they do sound pretty darn good...

by Wikin on Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:20 pm

JediSavant wrote:You know, i'm thinking about switching to a pair of these...

http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/24/ps10-r2/

they would work with all kinds of amps... and they do sound pretty darn good...

Another suggestion bro. Lug your 2A3 amp to pasar road to test out the various PA speakers there. Nowadays things have improved significantly even PA speakers do sound good.

I remember once stopping by the road side, unwind my window to listen to a large PA speaker blasting Sheffield Lab's drum test Surprised

Amazing realism. It'll put any Kre!! and W@TT Puppies to shame.

cheers

cheers

by vt4c on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:11 pm

Guys,

Something to read...Enjoy!

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?65735-HORN-SICKNESS-Help-needed-with-xo-for-4-way-onken-horn-system

http://linearsound.music.coocan.jp/blog/2011/09/

by mthoi on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:34 pm

Whoa - look at them beautiful JBL Paragon. Anyone have a pair?