Are the days of the CD player numbered?

chk post on the end of the cd player in www.hi-fi-avenue.blogspot.com

No it won't. Most likely CD players will end up like turntables and remain in the niche market. When CD technology was introduced to the market everybody expected LPs would go into extinction. Until today most avid audiophiles have a decent record system although titles on LPs may be scarce in comparison to CDs. I have received many favourable comments when I decided to take the turntable route for the first time and particularly appreciate a response from a forummer who abandoned his first turntable after the introduction of CD. He eventually ended up with a turntable at the end after trying many high-end CDPs in order to get closer to the music. Below is the thread showing the responses I've got.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1249215425&openfrom&1&4#1

I believe digital music is the future, but some things will remain close to the hearts of those who would prefer music format in the yester-years, especially LP that was claimed to bring emotion to music where most modern CDPs had faltered. In actual fact digital audio has been around for quite a while and the effects are already obvious as sales of CDs worldwide decline drastically throughout the past few years. Only time will tell whether CDPs will be able to stand the test of time. Turntables have proven that as modern TTs continue to roll out from established manufacturers until today.

Brands like Marantz, Cambridge Audio and many others seem to be churning out CDP's like no tomorrow. Nope, I don't see any end to it yet. Turntables have certainly resurged, thats for sure. I don't see Rega, Linn or some other makes hesitating their production. Almost every used Linn or Rega, tonearms, parts are quickly and surely bidded on at Ebay. Lets not be swayed by someone's opinion just yet.

i think CDP will be assimilated with SACD players as the high end digital source of choice. The only AV sources that have really gone the way of the doo-doo are:
VCRs (VHS & Betamax alike) (coz the medium & direct contact components wear out, and gets spoilt easily in the tropics by fungus. Killed by the cheap DVD recorders)
LD Players (coz the medium is awkward and bulky but not offering any quality advantage. Killed off by the DVD player)
Cassette Decks. (coz the medium & direct contact components wear out, and gets spoilt easily in the tropics by fungus.)

Anyone remember something called a "Tape Cartridge"? This one got killed by the Cassette coz the Cartridge was too prone to jamming and tape entanglement.

The LP did not get killed by the CD but the LP certainly did decline from mainstream to a "specialty niche" market. It soldiered on due to its still "superior analog" sound compared to CDs.

Actually its the CD format that didn't sound too good especially in its early days. The digital processing power was not simply good enough, and even the digital format chosen was not the best because the audio engineers and designers and inventors did not know enough about the pitfalls of the digital realm and also had to work with limited computing capabilities. But they didnt get everything wrong; the CD media did have its merits like versatility, convenience, more resilient to abuse, etc etc hence its format of choice for audio media storage & distribution.

There was a dip in CD player production and CD sales when MP3 gained ground in the 1990s but CD seems to be back on track again lately.

I personally see the CD diverging into two or even three separate directions. First would be the conversion to either MP3 based players or assimilated into DVD 'one-for-all' players for those casual owners. They would own a single system which does the duty of A/V (i.e. sound + movie). Some of the better DVD players on the market gives pretty good sound as a CD player, e.g. the Marantz DVD player I am now using in my 2nd hifi system (it was repalced by a SONY as it does not offer 1080p upgrading, just 1080i).

On the other hand, I can see those with a huge collection of CD continue to want to have a high quality CD player. For the true music lovers, they often spend a lot more money on their music collection than they do on their equipment. Certainly I have did so and most of my friends did so as well (though we play LPs rather than CDs). Thus the person who have amassed say a few thousand CDs, some of which might be very difficult to get music, would certainly want to continue with CD. While sound is extremely important, the music is even more important for these people. Therefor, I would agree that CD players (high quality ones) will continue to exist due to these people. Perhaps it would be assimilated by the SACD player though I think it's more the opposite. I.e. SACD capability will be ADDED to CD players instead of manufacturers coming out with a SACD player specifically.

Then there is the brand new promise, very high definition audio only Blu-Rays (DVD-Audio never did kick off). Ironically, I think this medium, if it ever becomes popular in the near future, will probably be the domain of those with a large collection of high quality LPs. We might just want to archive our LPs or make a collection for casual background listening (it is ironic but as our system becomes more high-end, listening to it becomes more of an event by itself as we start to dabbling into the exotic areas of warming up the system, making sure the power supply is up to par, and we want to make sure we have enough time to properly enjoy the system and avoid 'quickies' - half an hour of listening, etc).

Digital music already evolve in US, Europe few years back, for example HDtracks.com ( http://www.hdtracks.com ) offers high resolution audiophile music download (96kHz, 24-bit).

Personally, i will still keep my CD players or CD transporter as one of my alternate digital source with Network Media Player (refer http://www.hifi4sale.net/equipment-discussions-f6/network-music-player-logitech-slim-devices-linn-sooloos-sonos-ta-t433.htm )

Though i have ripped all my audio CDs into lossless or uncompressed audio format, occasionally i still listen CD via CD player or CD transporter with external DAC.

IMO, few advantages of CDs over digital music are :

a) It's great to keep your CD collections displayed in CD racks/cabinet but not with digital music stored in hard disc;

b) While listening to music, you can read the lyrics and album cover (hardcopy) (though you can read softcopy of album cover, lyric through your PDA)

but even if u rip it in uncompressed form, the quality is still worst than the original CD already.

Sadly, the digital format used in redbook CDs is not bulletproof and is still susceptible to copy losses just like the copying analog tapes.

Not many people are actually aware of this fact.

mugenfoo wrote:but even if u rip it in uncompressed form, the quality is still worst than the original CD already.

Agreed!

Even different batch of CD reproduction/remastering (of the similar CD
album) tends to give different sound quality from its original master
recording by professional remaster engineer.

auronthas wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:but even if u rip it in uncompressed form, the quality is still worst than the original CD already.

Agreed!

Even different batch of CD reproduction/remastering (of the similar CD
album) tends to give different sound quality from its original master
recording by professional remaster engineer.

Different master sources is one thing.

But the CD manufacturing technique is also another weak link in the chain.

This is how CDs are made: There is this one really huge metal stamp that's good for around 1000 presses onto the plastic CD cookie.

Once the plastic cookie is stamped by that big metal presser, then aluminium paint is sprayed over it, and the top is laminated with a clear plastic coat to protect the shiny paint. Sometimes, the paint is not think enough and this results in "pinholes" on the CD surface. Often times, the cheap ass manufacturers stretch their production capacity by using the same stamper beyond its rated worklife span and this results in poor CD presses. Meaning, the CD itself is already littered with bit errors due to the worn out metal stamper.

Had a friend who worked in a CD manufacturing factory in Bangi , and he got really interesting stories to tell.
Daytime, one shift of workers will work on the legitimate stuff. Night time, another batch of workers will take over, and they will manufacture "ahem ahem", not-so-legit material. A couple of years back, the owner had to flee the country coz the long arm of the law was finally turning up the heat on them. True story !

linn has become the first high-end company to stop making cd players. the last linn cd player will be made in a few days' time - dec 31.

Not exactly sure which brand will follow suit.
Linn CDPs just dont come cheap and this might have hurt their sales a lot.
At this kind of price level, there are so many upmarket choices.
Nowadays, many people are switching to digital downloads too.
Perhaps, Linn has just fallen out of the race.

sflam wrote:chk post on the end of the cd player in www.hi-fi-avenue.blogspot.com

Not for me. I just bought myself a new cd player..

car o scope wrote:Not exactly sure which brand will follow suit.
Linn CDPs just dont come cheap and this might have hurt their sales a lot.
At this kind of price level, there are so many upmarket choices.
Nowadays, many people are switching to digital downloads too.
Perhaps, Linn has just fallen out of the race.

LINN had just joined in the race in the digital download and streaming business. Chesky Records is ahead at the moment since starting around mid 2008.

From my observation they are paying more attention to their HDTrack download business than their CDs production business.

tycham wrote:
LINN had just joined in the race in the digital download and streaming business. Chesky Records is ahead at the moment since starting around mid 2008.

From my observation they are paying more attention to their HDTrack download business than their CDs production business.

Yes. But their CDP business dont seem to be in competitive position compared to other manufacturers.
Thus, Linn has to switch to download business.

My point of view is:
Linn's pulling out of the CDP business doesn't mean the end of CD era.

Apart from the digital download, LPs are slowly making waves from the other end.
More and more enthusiasts are turning back to LPs recently.

I would rather think of now as Golden Age of Cds. Popular CDs are going for as low as GBP2.98 - 4.98 so grab as many as you can afford while you can. When I was in the UK back in 95-96 CD albums were going for >10GBP and the cheapest option was still to sign up for CD package houses at 6-7GBP per CD.

Ok guys, after having said all that about the last days of CD, would anyone still go out and buy a top notch CD player without SACD capability?

Example: If somebody sells their Krell KPS20i CD player or Wadia 860 CD player for RM10K would you buy it? Remember guys, these will not play SACD. Would you???

If CD is my primary source of high quality music, I would. This is because while SACD is supposedly superior to regular CD, a Krell KPS20i or that Wadia 860, or that Meridian, or any other hi-end CD player, they can outperform even very competent non hi-end SACD players. Those things costs many tens of thousands brand new.

Now this is getting interesting and I suppose the only real way to find out would be to conduct a listening session but in your opinion would a audiophile CD played on a top notch CD player outperform SACD played on say, a Marantz KI Pearl SACD player for instance?

I read somewhere (can't recall) that the 16 bit PCM encoding which forms the basis of CD encoding and decoding is inherently stressful to listen to. Tests have been conducted and it all points to PCM as the culprit for why CD is inferior to Vinyl.

Apparantly it's not because CDs truncate audio below 20hz and above 20khz which arguably we cannot hear anyway. It's not digital which does not sound as good as analog, it's the method in which digital is implemented and PCM digital is to blame!!!

DSD which replaces PCM in SACD does not have the "stressful" sonic characteristics of PCM and supposedly will be the way forward.

Now, i still want that Mark Levinson No.39 CD player if it ever surfaces in the used market but how much I want it or am willing to pay for it I just don't know anymore.....

I feel like i'm buying a Ferrari with a 700Bhp V12 engine and 22 inch wheels but wheels have since become obsolete as everyone else have already moved on to Magnetic Levitation. Something like that.

That's very true bimmerman. And as for your earlier question, unfortunately I cannot answer as I have never listened to the Marantz KI Pearl SACD player before. As I do not like to comment on equipments I have not listened to I dare not say how it would compare to say the ML 39 you mentioned. What I have compared is if I remember correctly the Sony SACD player which apparently is quite a competent player but it was significantly bested by variously Krell KPS, Meridian (forgot which model but dual box one) and a couple of other high end player. I think while SACD format is inherent superior to the CD format (perhaps due to the PCM vs DSD algorithm as you mentioned, which is perfectly plausible) other aspects like stability and accuracy of the reading mechanism (yes, everyone uses the generic lens/mechanism but the high end players have lots of mods to it) plus the quality of the op-amps, output stage, etc. I think those can tilt the balance in favour of the high-end CD player, overcoming whatever weakness the CD PCM format has. Of course the best is to use a high-end SACD player.

Another consideration : how will the SACD player playing normal CDs compete against the high-end CD player ? While I am not a CD fan, from what I understand, SACDs are quite limited indeed. So what's the point of having a superior format if there is no musical source ? Then we resort to 'downgrading' back to playing CDs on the SACD player and it would be highly unlikely it can challenge the ML/Krell/Meridian, etc.

Mr WongKN, after reading what you've just said I am now in trouble again. I have a Singapore trip coming and I am going to be very very irresponsible with my credit card. That Levinson No.39 beckons! Who knows? Maybe i'll get the No390s instead. Looks like it's going to be 2010-2012 trying to clear credit card debt again for me. But life is so short, why don't we just make it sweet!

very tempting isn it? yeah thats right, swipe it swipe it, dont worry life is short, enjoy while you can, swipe it bimmerman, you can do it

(say it like satan's whispering to your ears LOL)

azri wrote:very tempting isn it? yeah thats right, swipe it swipe it, dont worry life is short, enjoy while you can, swipe it bimmerman, you can do it

(say it like satan's whispering to your ears LOL)

Ali Setan or Azri Setan?

hahaha LOL its bimmer sil khannaz hahaha

encik bimmer, why 39? 37 not good enough? how much 39 is worth nowdays in sing $$??

Well, if you ultimately can afford the payments, I would think its worthwhile to go for it (or go for broke). Of course I am assuming you won't be forced to eat maggie mee everyday for 1 year just to pay off the credit card debt lar. Sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and get what we want. As was said, life is indeed very short.

Yes uncle-Wong, that new Clearaudio Concept TT also looks mighty tempting eh ?? .... Or how about that 10" Graham arm ? ... Drool Drool ....

As for me, still waiting for something called "KCT" .....

azri wrote:encik bimmer, why 39? 37 not good enough? how much 39 is worth nowdays in sing $$??

Azree Mat Besi (Mat Metal),

Well, because the No.39 is a CD player and the No.37 is a CD transport. You have to spend more money for a DAC worthy of the No.37 if you go that route. I tak mampu lah bro. As for No.39 price, i'm still searching for an answer. Australia how much bro?

Clearaudio Concept TT, 10" Graham arm, Krell KCT... We're all in the same expensive boat here eh? But who floats and who walks the plank depends on the depths of our pockets. With my meagre income I'll be asking for financial trouble here but I think it's worth the risk on this one.

Also, I did consider the cheaper Krell KAV300CD but after reading what Wes Phillips of Steroephile wrote in his review..... Well, in summary the KAV300CD is good enough for my mid-fi KAV300i and Minima Amator but what if I upgrade to hi-fi someday? Nah, just kidding but the review does make me want to go for the No.39 instead.

Here's an excerpt of the review:

Given how impressively it performed, I feel picky pointing out that, as good as the KAV-300cd was—and it was very good—it still lacked that last smidge of rhythmic ease that inhabits the very finest digital gear I've heard, such as Krell's own KPS-20i (at nearly three times the money), or the Mark Levinson No.39 (at about twice the price). This may not matter to many users—the whole concept of pace is one that still elicits controversy. I can understand being seduced by the KAV-300cd's grainless detail, huge dynamic capacity, and unrestrained soundstaging. These are areas where you would have to spend money with abandon before you found its equal, much less before you bettered it.

That said, there is a living, breathing quality to music that goes beyond melody—a grander sort of architecture, dictated more by the long line than by the phrase-to-phrase progression. Here, I felt as if the KAV-300cd imposed limits upon the music, flattening the effect. This flattening was noticeable in such no-holds barred systems as the C-J ART/Krell FPB 600/EgglestonWorks Andra rig I currently have running in my main room—but that system is so revealing, I can now determine whether or not the dogs barking on Dr. John's "How Come My Dog Don't Bark When You Come Around?" have fleas. (They don't.) This system also clearly revealed that the KAV-300cd sounded best with its display turned off. More detail, more air, even less hash—all the usual stuff.

On most systems, however, I can't imagine the KAV-300cd being the limiting factor. Certainly, this wasn't the case when I played it in a rig consisting of its stablemate, the KAV-300i, and a pair of ProAc One S loudspeakers—and that was an unusually satisfying, musical system, one that I could very easily spend the rest of my days listening to. If changes in your system do result in the 300cd being the weak link, you'll be happy to learn that it makes a first-rate CD transport.

mugenfoo wrote:Yes uncle-Wong, that new Clearaudio Concept TT also looks mighty tempting eh ?? .... Or how about that 10" Graham arm ? ... Drool Drool ....

As for me, still waiting for something called "KCT" .....

2nd hand punya Emotion lagi tempting to me man...
Hahahahaha.. KCT eh? Tangan gatal already?
So, KCT = Kena Cuci Tangan with dettol so that the itchiness will not be too serious. hahahahahaha...

Bimmerman,

Seriously why -not- the KAV300CD ? It is cheaper, gives you stellar service now and when you strike lottery in the future and wants a better CD source, you add a DAC to it. As the review says, the KAV300CD makes a very good transport. A good transport + good DAC will usually be better than a CD player of the same (combined) price range. It also means when you do get the DAC, it will be a later and presumeably more advanced better sounding model.

My HO. Worth dua sen saja lar....

An excellent take there Mr. Wong. That Teac clamping drive in the KAV300CD is top notch but the thing is I already have a CD player priced in the same range as the 300CD. Mine is the Cary Audio CD300 with the equally impressive Stable platter drive. Now i'm thinking maybe I should get a top notch DAC instead.

But the Mark Levinson No.39 is so seriously good looking and probably costs the same as a top notch DAC.

Dilemma!!!

How we wish money will just fall down from sky automatically..
hahahahahahaha...
Right.. I gotta stop dreaming and go back to reality..

Actually money does drop down from the sky. I know people who sell air and make a fortune. Some sell water and make a fortune. The money is there but getting it eludes most of us.

bimmerman wrote:Actually money does drop down from the sky. I know people who sell air and make a fortune. Some sell water and make a fortune. The money is there but getting it eludes most of us.

... yep ... you just need to find the right "con" ...

Mr Raptor, glad you've dropped in for a chat. Now I stumbled upon this CD player (China mari punya) Called the Original Da Vincci A9.8. Yup, lame name I know but extremely good looking, well made and heavy too. If it had the words REGA or Naim printed on it's casing it'll definately go for RM15K at least.

But the shopguy is asking for only a fraction of that. Maybe you might consider doing a review on it? See if affordable stuff like these can match or actually outdo stuff from the major players. Whaddaya say Mr. Raptor?



Check out Audio Synthesis at Amcorp Mall.

How much is 'the fraction'?

Can't recall but something like a shade under RM4K I think. Did not bargain down. Impressive specs too:

The design is so special.
Like an antique player.

When you see it for real it's even more special. It's very very solid. And the remote is milled out of a single solid block of aluminium. Puts my Krell remote to shame. From just casual listening through a simple setup at the shop, I could already hear how transparent it was but.

Hope Mr. Bassraptor can find the time to put it through his golden ears.

even those 37 starts with $4.5k, i dare not say more bro

Azri, why not consider the Da Vincci CD-A9.8 then? It's just as well made as the Levinsons build wise.

tunggu balik bolehland lah, see how 1st

that one will cost $900 plus shipping & what not!

Sorry bimmerman, I forgot you already have a high-end CD Player. I was about to fan fire and tell you to get that Krell SACD Standard currently for sale in the FS forum. RM19k 'only''.

There is a Krell Studio DAC in Audio Image actually. Might be interesring. Plus a Meridian DAC and a Goldmund DAC.....

Bimmerman, I've replied your pm.

For the others, since he has brought up the subject of reviewing this - I've been asking this particular dealer for stuff for years. He'll say he's working something out but nothing happens. The last I saw him, he was trying out some McIntosh-lookalikes. Cosmetics iffy, but impressive specs-to-price equation. Promised to pass me that when he confirmed the dealership. That was 2 months ago. So ...


I've no issues with no-brand China products, but here's a caveat. They may sound good and be able to take on, sonically or in outward build quality, the heavyweights. Importantly, how would they age - they haven't been in the market long enough. Nice to be able to tell in 10 or 15 years. At least brands like Shanling, Dussun and Consonance are building up some sort of a pedigree of their own.

So by all means, if a China-made products impresses you, go ahead and buy it. No need to worry about what others will think.

All said, that CD player looks retro-licious!

WongKN wrote:Sorry bimmerman, I forgot you already have a high-end CD Player. I was about to fan fire and tell you to get that Krell SACD Standard currently for sale in the FS forum. RM19k 'only''.

There is a Krell Studio DAC in Audio Image actually. Might be interesring. Plus a Meridian DAC and a Goldmund DAC.....

I actually contacted the dude with the Krell SACD Standard and guess what! it's not RM19K. It's RM9K. How bout that? Betcha you want to get it for yourself now doncha? But I did some checking and it only cost US$3599 on offer before it was discontinued. Strangely it was not one of the popular Krells. The Stereophile review was not stellar but not too bad either.

As for the Meridians, Goldmunds, newer Krells, I don't know. To me aesthetics play a very big role in my choice of gear. If it sounds good but crams my style then no can do. I not saying the abovementioned are ugly but it abit like the Bugatti Veyron. The most beautiful car in the world to some. To me it's butt ugly.

Now, that Mark Levinson No.39/390s, that's a mighty fine looking machine.