Dedicated Line for HiFi

Guys...

Would like to ask any of you Hifi lover.....pull a dedicated line for HIFI?

Izzit advisable for that? or simply plug into our wall plug that will be just alright.

If were to pull dedicated line, izzit advisable using a better powercable or those normal grey thick 4mm cable.

Any advice?

I don't have a dedicated power line from ELCB to wall socket. Just the standard wiring embedded within the walls. But from wall socket to power distributor i'm using the cost effective Furutech 413AGII. Very pleased with the results thus far even without a dedicated power line.

Have you changed your wall socket to the US type or have you changed the plug on the Furutech to the British type?

I know for a fact the US type receptacle sounds better than the UK. (please don't shoot me, it's my personal opinion) and I should be using the US wall receptacle but no, i'm using the UK. Mainly because I need the on/off switch.

So to answer your question, it's UK 3 pin ---> Furutech 413AGII ---> Female IEC ---> US receptacled power distributor and US style all the way.

Thanks for the clarification. I was interested to know what you had done. I hope to change my socket to the US type shortly, as the adapter I am using is mediocre and causes an occasional buzz depending on how tight it slips in!

Without Any doubt,A Dedicated line is a MUST when it comes to hifi.your equipments will NOT perform at its best without a dedicated line.PERIOD.

AS far as the details is concerned,these are the minimum;

1Seperate switch box for hifi,Using good switch,prettreated with a contact cleaner and enhancer.Hagel /Siemens are 2 examples of switch man. that are readily available here........


2.12 g in wall wire;again try to use good ones like Helukabel etc.Do not 'bury' the cables in the PVC pipe!!!

3.Best Quality Receptacles you could afford.Save up for a good Schuko/US type .For me Oyaide R1(Cryoed and cooked version)
,or nothing!!!!

You could go to thev extreme like me,but I will not bore you with the details.

Yes,having a dedicated line is the FIRST and MOST important step in hifi .

Yikes Tin, sounds like the full 9 yards, sounds very very expensive. Not sure if my mid-fi setup could really benefit from all that but with high end stuff I have no doubt that it will reap huge sonic benefits.

sunsn wrote:Thanks for the clarification. I was interested to know what you had done. I hope to change my socket to the US type shortly, as the adapter I am using is mediocre and causes an occasional buzz depending on how tight it slips in!

Wait a minute! You say you're using an adaptor to fit a US type plug into a UK type socket? I would not do that if I were you. On a 3 pin UK socket, the live terminal is on the right hand side while the US type is on the left. Just like the road system. While it may not damage your equiptment, it is certainly detrimental to your sound. Maybe someone else can explain this better. Any takers?

Bimmermann,

you would be surprised at how affordable a dedicated line is;if you could afford a power cord,you could certainly afford a dedicated line;and once done -that is it......no need for any upgrades and the system will be thankful to you..

If you want to use the British type receptacles ,avoid the switch type like you would avoid someone with H1n1;)to much noises as the current passes through the switch.Mk has some of those metallic unswitched British type receptacles......

Tin, Well, I believe the switch will definately degrade the sound but I need the switch because both my CD player and Integrated amp got no switch. They both go on standby only. Both will draw 100Watts on standby. TNB bill is one thing, I also live where the lightning always strikes twice at the same spot. Thus I have to unplug when not in use.

Also, I need to switch off the wall socket first befor I plug in, otherwise both my cd player and my high current amp will make a KA-PLOOOOK noise through my speakers!!! You can see the woofer cone behave like some alien is trying to burst out of someones stomach. You can also see a brilliant electric blue spark flying off the 3 pin plug.

If I can solve the switch problem then I will definately complete the chain and go for a US wall plug for sure!

Tin, I got some question as to your suggestion.

1Seperate switch box for hifi,Using good switch,prettreated with a contact cleaner and enhancer.Hagel /Siemens are 2 examples of switch man. that are readily available here........

>> Meaning, my house now is 3 phase, pull a single phase dedicated to HIFI, with adding a Hager ELCB and a small MCB especially for HIFI?


2.12 g in wall wire;again try to use good ones like Helukabel etc.Do not 'bury' the cables in the PVC pipe!!!

>> Wut u meant by do not 'bury' the cables in the PVC pipe? Dun quite ustd.
>> Fren recommend 4mm thick normal grey cable available at eletrical shop.
>> Helukabel 1 meter how much? or any particular model from Helukabel
>> Calculated i need around 20 meter from ELCB and to my HIFI....will this Helukabel cost me a boom????


3.Best Quality Receptacles you could afford.Save up for a good Schuko/US type .For me Oyaide R1(Cryoed and cooked version)
,or nothing!!!!

>>A normal Wattage receptacles already cost around RM350. I cannot imagine Oyaide R1..how much it would cost.

You could go to thev extreme like me,but I will not bore you with the details.

dedicated earth as well.....not to forget


this is mine 45amp Hager ELCB, but the wall outlets has been changed to duplex US type for both, means 4 US outlets

Viper,


1.
>> Meaning, my house now is 3 phase, pull a single phase dedicated to HIFI, with adding a Hager ELCB and a small MCB especially for HIFI?

That would be best,but even if you do not want that you could just "split" from one of the phase......And dedicated earth certainly would help.

2.A lot of electrician will run your cables in PVC pipoes.try to avoid this as pvc induces a lot of [problems,I will spare you the details.

I use Helukabel for the wiring of my whole house and a specials mains cable for my hifin rigs.What I am trying to say is avoid the cheap chinese made cables that's everywhere.You could also buy the mains cables from Farnell or RS which is very,very good actually[and quite cheap]

3.oyaide R1cost only 145[cooked and cyoed].I got mine from audioexcellenceaz,but vdaudio also have the same version..........

145 USD for the Oyaide.Not Ringgit but still superb value

[quote="tin"]Viper,


1.That would be best,but even if you do not want that you could just "split"
from one of the phase......And dedicated earth certainly would help.

**** which means a special earth for the dedicated line? Sorry...ask you stupid question...coz all these electrical stuff...I really got no idea at all.


2.A lot of electrician will run your cables in PVC pipoes.try to avoid this as pvc induces a lot of [problems,I will spare you the details.

I use Helukabel for the wiring of my whole house and a specials mains cable for my hifin rigs.What I am trying to say is avoid the cheap chinese made cables that's everywhere.You could also buy the mains cables from Farnell or RS which is very,very good actually[and quite cheap]

**** Can you spare me on more details on usage of PVC casing for dedicated line?

**** Helukabel is not available at M'sian, only from SG izzit....May I know the model number for the cable?

****Do you mind give me the model/ brand/ so that I can go n do a search on it for RS n Farnell 1?

1,Helukabel IS available in Malaysia.You can contact their Malaysian salesmen [many around]...All this was done by my contractors.

2.PVC induces alot of static for high current applications,especially the Chinese made ones.OIf you want to splash,you could use copper casinfg instead............again talk to your electrician

3.As for Farnell and RS,look under their mains[power ]cables section.Spend as you wish according to budget;most of my friends that choose this route has not been dissapointesd.

4.Find a TNB certified wireman ,especially those that has been involved in building hospitals,they will understand fairly easily......

do yourself a favour, and invest in more recordings - and a mid-sized mains conditioner, and pull the breaks! tweaks and desires have no end, if you want to hear the purest of sounds, either meditate or learn to play an instrument - your hearing will improve!

One 'guru' advised me this. If you think about it at the most basic level, all those cartridges, CD Players, amplified, etc, they are merely modulating the incoming wall supply, turning it into audio signals. In this sense, a good, consistent, and clean power supply is of the highest priority. After all, if we want to bake a good cake, we must make sure our flour is good and clean. If we make a cup of coffee from contaminated water, we are certainly going to suffer from an upset stomach at the minimum.

If we go and study all the best well known manufacturers, especially amplifier manufacturers but also others like CD Players, etc, even turntable manufacturers, you will find that as we go up in their line-up, their higher/highest models always features a lot of attention to the power supply. The difference between Krell FBP and Krell MRA is that MRA has a separate chassis for the power supply for e.g. I used to own an Exposure power amp, the original classic model and they feature a huge transformer with a lot of attention paid to the power supply.

In kungfu, any sports, even dancing, the foot-step is considered the most important foundation. When we learn kungfu, the master will start with the basic 'horse stance'. In a game like badminton, the top players spends lot of time improving their footwork. Anyone who has been on a boat will know how important a steady and firm footing is.

When one has reached a certain level in hi-fi, then all the best 'gurus' will ALWAYS advice to improve on the power supply. In this case, a specially pulled line from the mains DB is always the recommended approach. The most important thing is to avoid sharing in a 'ring' of wall sockets powered off a single 16A MCB. A power conditioner is also mandatory.

The advice to get more music is always good but to look at it another angle. After one has spent lots of effort, time and money to get a killer collection of the best music LPs and CDs and what not, it shows that they appreciate the music. If that is the case, then it makes even more sense to make sure those priceless music are being played at their best. And the best hifi system one can afford or set-up is the road towards that nirvana. And quite universally, the dedicated wall supply is considered a critical part of the hifi.

Dedicated line is important. But before you splurge your hard earn money to go for the full 9 yards, try putting a RF filter in between the power supply and your source, (cdp, T/T) and DAC if any. Better still, if you can have individual RF filter for each equipment.

I did that and the end result is quieter background.

YMMV.

from the word of Kavichandran Alexander, even if all golds of earth and molded into an end product made to reproduce music, if there is no music - then the former will cease to exist - simply cease to exist - since we are talking about the end chain of an entertaining experience which is listening to music, and not performing - i think its relation to sports or kungfu - which are evolutive in nature and produces infinite array of post-products (just like making music) juxtaposing making a movie, and watching a movie, not against power products or good cables - its just that one gets carried away "from" the music and it gets utterly materialistic at the end - when someone talks about dynamics or low or high levels background noise - i expect them to at-least know, on which key the piano is tuned to..in one of the recordings they blast out - minus that - if one lacks this..the platinum cords or a dedicated power reactor - serve you less, just my two cents.

PS : One guy in the forum changed his paint to pentalite from pearl glo as recommended by his contractor, for better "audiophile" experience...

agree with 123_rocketman:) try that before you break your wall..

I fully agreed with WongKN's statement "The most important thing is to avoid sharing in a 'ring' of wall sockets powered off a single 16A MCB. A power conditioner is also mandatory. "

I have asked my contractor to pull a dedicated line from the mains DB using the recommended 4mm cable to my HT room. He charged me RM300 inclusive labour for a length of over 30ft. I have no regrets as previously in my living hall where my av gears are plugged to the wall socket which most of times are lopped with one another. I could feel the noise on my tv when the air-cond is switched on eventhough it is plugged opposite socket. Again, the sockets in each hall are actually looped into 1 point in out typical house. By pulling a 4mm cable, not only you get cleaner but also stable current too. Ever wonder why your equipments sound better late at nite?

To music listening, it is a MUST. I am pretty sure your main DB has spare fuses to use. BUT, when you ask a contractor to do just say shut-up & do it! They won't understand in AV or hifi perspective. My contractor stares at me with BIG eyes & even want to argue that 4mm cable is unnecessary for any electronics equipments, he insists 1 to 2mm is suffice. So, just use Nike slogan "Just Do It" & smile to give him the benefits of doubt.

My eletrician told me the max that he can do it for me is pulling 10mm cable from my isolator to my Hifi area.

Anyone of u experience b4 using occ copper like furutech, pulling from isolator to Hifi area? I think a dedicate earth for Hifi also a must because our home eletrical product dumb lots of noise into it.

Just a dedicated line is good enough, using commercial electrical wire. Minimum 4mm. If you have massive powerful amps, then larger wires would be good. It's more about rating. If your amps needs higher current, then thicker wire. So you need to do your research. Of course if you have the spare cash, you can use special wires like Furutech, etc, but personally I can't afford it so I use normal electrical wires. When you pull that dedicated line, of course it must be the complete 'set'; live, neutral plus earth. For my case, the earth I tap it to the earth at the mains DB. Some people actually install a dedicated earth plug in the garden of their house for the hifi line. That works as well if the logistics is not too complicated.

Whenever there are discussions about more 'advanced' endeavours like this, there will always be well meaning forumers who emphasizes the importance of music. It is good advice but as I have taken great pains to point out, this is a hifi forum after all, not a musician's forum. So to the forumers, how well the music is played is equally as important as the music itself. ALSO, one must give proper CREDIT to the forumers. Do not assume that those who talks about tweaks do not have a good collection of music. For e.g. of those of my friends who pulled the dedicated line, one of them has over 5,000 LPs and cannot add anymore because he ran out of storage space. Another has 20,000 LPs, the whole house is filled with LPs. So, anyone still wants to venture to advice them to 'buy more music ?' This is also why I pointed out that often when one has reached a certain level, then they will want to focus on more areas than what is traditionally looked at by those who might be just starting with hifi, for e.g.

So, while the advice of focussing on the music is always good, do not go overboard. For one who spends more on music than the equipment, it does not necessarily make one a 'better' listener than those who have done or wants to do the reverse. To each his own.

if I were to do up the wiring, I would consider multi strand wires (10mm) which are better for hifi (not the typical 10mm which is hard), forgot the type and brand.

dedicated ELCB consider Snider or sort of. good dedicated earth grid (say 4 points).

Those multi-strand 10mm wires are not easy to get. For sure you cannot get them from the typical electrical shops, except perhaps for some very specialised ones at Jalan Pasar (we can truly get anything at all in Jalan Pasar, I even saw solar panels in one shop). But if you have some muscle amps, then you might have to use 10mm wires. If not, one electrician told me 4mm wire is good enough for 20amps.

WongKN wrote: If not, one electrician told me 4mm wire is good enough for 20amps.

This is also very good for my CPU P4 connector, about AWG 6

[img][/img]
bought this mcb from octave

[img][/img]
and using uk plug according to Yap,can give better bass to my setup..

and,using just 2mm good quality copper wire for wiring.. thats all,after that u can enjoy ur system all the way to heaven..

maybe 2mm isnt enough for u,then go for the biggest wire u can found on earth..he,just joking..

4mm core wire would be sufficient for 20amps.

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/American-Wire-Gauge/


But just because the Power amp ***might*** (i say "might", because most typical integrateds deliver at most 5~8Amps via their outputs only) be delivering 20 Amps to the speakers, doesn't mean its sucking 20amps from the wall socket.

A typical Audiolab 8000A integrated if it's delivering its full 50Wpc output (aggregate total of 100Watts output), would most likely draw no more than the grand total of 1.2 amps (yes, one-point-two) from the Wall socket only....


So, really there's just too much fuss about exotic sockets and plugs etc etc going around.


Unless if you're blessed enough to own a pair of Krell KAS Amps, then each monoblock would probably be consuming approx 10~15 Amps from the wall socket each.

why is it US plug considered good? is it the fuse factor?

If you can read in between the lines, the message is simple - do not go overboard, its simple - there are loads of recordings which are recorded with a lot of care to demonstrate "High-Fidelity", ofcourse a good system and carefully executed power grid is pivotal - but take note of the safety rating of the stuffs you use.
As far as running in-wall wires from your mainboard, i found that
Romex 12-2 (12 AWG) to deliver the cleanest/noise free signal to our outlet,
its reasonably priced, and you can get it at amazon.com, execute it through
a radial loop - and for most part of the next decade, your listening will be trouble free.

[quote="matlap"][img][/img]
bought this mcb from octave

agree with u, the mcb did have big improvement for my Hifi.

The main objective of the dedicated line is to avoid being part of a ring of power outlets. The main problem is that you might not know, or be able to control what other things are running off the same ring. Even if the ring is run on a 4mm 20amp line, a water heater, an air-cond, or the outlet to power the water kettle might be running of that ring. These things suck a lot of current. A dedicated line ensures that only your hifi component is running off it.

The other issue is isolation. I don't know if any of you have noticed this, if you have a notebook, try powering on the notebook near your TV especially with the power supply plugged into the same wall outlet.

a non-ring (radial) should be the best if ones needs clean power, we are essentially trying to cure what ever that is coming at the end of the circuit - i was just trying to say that a good a good power filter/conditioner out of a ring circuit should be sufficient, if one is to wire a direct (radial non-ring) circuit - then much benefit could be had, especially if you are running big monoblocks..

if the house is running single phase, when the air con cuts in, do you see the light dims ? that is an easy way of installing air cond. Also lighting circuit are never share with the air cond circuit. So is this dimming of light affecting you ?

123_rocketman wrote:Dedicated line is important. But before you splurge your hard earn money to go for the full 9 yards, try putting a RF filter in between the power supply and your source, (cdp, T/T) and DAC if any. Better still, if you can have individual RF filter for each equipment.

I did that and the end result is quieter background.

YMMV.

Rocketman...

Where did you purchase the "RF" filter ( passive or active ) and possible to attach an image of the product

Thank you

cheers

Beside the power filter or conditioner, addition of Noise Harvester a good option?

chua55 wrote:if the house is running single phase, when the air con cuts in, do you see the light dims ? that is an easy way of installing air cond. Also lighting circuit are never share with the air cond circuit. So is this dimming of light affecting you ?

common in older houses, even if the air-cond circuit is not the same as the lighting circuits, the lights will still dim when the compressor kicks in. This means that the incoming supply from near the meter box is already starting to give way.

noodle88 wrote:
bought this mcb from octave

agree with u, the mcb did have big improvement for my Hifi.

Wow !!! RM350 for that circuit breaker ????,

Inside got gold or platinum issit ?

chua55 wrote:if the house is running single phase, when the air con cuts in, do you see the light dims ? that is an easy way of installing air cond. Also lighting circuit are never share with the air cond circuit. So is this dimming of light affecting you ?

This is why we should get a good power conditioner. But choice of PC is something I will not venture into. There are lots of choices in the market and all of them have their own unique strengths.

I used to draw direct from the wall supply. It has 4mm wires dedicated but parallled off an auxilliary DB drawn from the mains DB. This aux DB also powers the air-cond in my room, water heater, and lights in another room. At that time, I did not use any power conditioner. But I have a commercial voltmeter, done by my friend, a professional electrical contracter. I can see fluctuations in the incoming supply, in this case, measured by the voltage from the wall socket. When the air-cond compressor cuts in, the voltage actually dips a bit for a short while before stablising back up again. As I use a 1.5hp air-cond, the current draw from the compressor was really quite massive. Then when the water heater is activated, there will be a very loud and very scary pop in the system.

A noise filter like the 'Energizer' block sold at Audio Image reduced the loudness of the pop considerably. It was tolerable and no longer scary. This is why I tell people my Energizer block really works. But with the air-cond compressor, there was no audible artifact. When I added the PowerTran, not only did it completely removed the pop, the voltage dip was considerably lesser (did not drop so much). And the sound was also a lot better, which I believe is due to its massive transformer somewhat buffering the interruption in supply when the air-cond cut-in. Then finally I saved enough to buy a roll of 10mm wires and my father installed for me, with my help, a truly dedicated line pulled from the mains DB just for the hifi. Now, even with a new 2hp air-cond, the voltage is rock-stable at all times.

It's like I said, sometimes the benefits are physically observable and not always just based on listening alone. A reduction of the pop, or its elimination. The steady voltage versus a dip when the air-cond compressor cuts in. All these are clearly observable. I am not a 'dummy' in electrical or electronics as I sat for electronics '101' in university and I am familiar with electrical. So I know for a fact all these interference and voltage dips definitely affects the sound.

how much did that roll of 10mm wire cost ?

wingman wrote:

123_rocketman wrote:Dedicated line is important. But before you splurge your hard earn money to go for the full 9 yards, try putting a RF filter in between the power supply and your source, (cdp, T/T) and DAC if any. Better still, if you can have individual RF filter for each equipment.

I did that and the end result is quieter background.

YMMV.

Rocketman...

Where did you purchase the "RF" filter ( passive or active ) and possible to attach an image of the product

Thank you

cheers

hi Wingman,

I didnt buy them, a friend gave them to me. I just assembled them. The brand is Belling Lee. Check the link for more info;

http://www.blpcomp.com/productinfo/filters.php

Cheers.

thegoodarcher wrote:agree with 123_rocketman:) try that before you break your wall..

>>>So, really there's just too much fuss about exotic sockets and plugs etc etc going around.

Mugen, so you don't subscribe to the MK Hospital plugs, and cyrogenically treated power sockets ...etc ? Are there really any difference or just hype and psychology ?

On Power cables .....would it be better to just DIY a really thick gauge power cable and good connectors, rather than buying those expensive cables ? Does it need to be oxygen free since it is just for power transmission at a low 50Hz rather than small signals? Is shielding really needed ?

Or is there something i don't know ?

Hi,

I would recommend using a "BALANCED AUDIO ISOLATION TRANSFORMER" for the mains input voltage. It is basically a toriodal transformer which has 230 or 240 volt input and the output voltage is a balanced 230 or 240 volt AC.

I have reccomended this transformer for some of my customers and the results are amazing.

impactzone wrote:Hi,

I would recommend using a "BALANCED AUDIO ISOLATION TRANSFORMER" for the mains input voltage. It is basically a toriodal transformer which has 230 or 240 volt input and the output voltage is a balanced 230 or 240 volt AC.


I have reccomended this transformer for some of my customers and the results are amazing.

Care to share where we can acquire these Tranny and the plus points ?

Rocket Man...

Lucky you, for inheriting these from your buddy and thanks for the link. Seen these devices being sold at AMCorp mall - Audio Synthesis. Quite a hefty price tag . Farnell or RS components should carry these products as well.


Thank you

cheers

Wow !!! RM350 for that circuit breaker ????,

Inside got gold or platinum issit ?

mugenfoo

mugenfoo,i think u should start get rich scheme by opening hifi shop,expensive hifi stuff can fetch more money than selling civic type R...haha

Hi Wingman,

The Balanced Audio Isolation Transformers are easily available for the 110 or 120 volt usa market.

However , i make my own customized Balanced Audio Isolation transformer using the toriodal transformer which i buy from the UK and this transformer gives out 240volts .

The reason why Balanced Audio Isolation transformer is important :

In much the same way that balanced audio lines can reduce
the pickup of hum and other types of electromagnetic interference
(EMI), the use of balanced AC power lines in sensitive audio,
video, or computer installations can make an enormous
difference in system noise. But power distribution is not balanced.
The distribution standards currently in use were derived from practices
established over a century ago, when electric power use was
limited to lighting and motors—long before any EMI-sensitive
applications existed. The emphasis then was on convenience
(from the power utilities’ standpoint) and safety, but not noise
cancellation. The result was a three-wire distribution scheme in
which 240 Volt branch circuits have a hot wire and a neutral
wire, with the neutral tied to a third wire connected for safety to
an earth ground. The third wire does not carry any current
unless there is a fault. This unbalanced scheme causes hum in
audio circuits for two main reasons. First, the current flowing in
the hot wire induces hum in any other nearby wires, which may
carry vulnerable low-level audio signals. Second, because the
impedance of chassis and cable shielding to ground is greater
than zero, ground current flowing from power supply
capacitors and from EMI pickup causes a voltage drop at 60
Hz and its harmonics. This low level noise becomes part of the
audio signals.

With a center-tapped isolation transformer, the AC power
feeding a studio or audio setup can be balanced at its source. The current carrying wires then are no longer “hot” (240 Volts) and
“neutral” (0 Volts), but two 120 Volt lines of opposite polarity
(referenced to the safety ground connected to the center tap),
whose difference is 240 Volts. This type of power, when run
around a room, does not induce hum into nearby audio wiring,
because the two conductors induce equal and opposite
voltages that cancel each other out. Similarly, ground currents
are all but eliminated by the same common-mode cancellation.

Whats the diference between this "balanced audio isolation transformer" and the Soundstage sold at Tong Lee ? Anyone used the BAIT and can provide some info ?

Thanks