Re: Ayon CD players feedback

by llsaw on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:50 am

car o scope wrote:It is just that I did not get used to these "hang" issues and have to reboot CDP halfway through listening sessions for so many years.
I have to admit that I was quite shocked when the 1st time happened.
This was the situation after I changed from the Denon to the Rega.

But still, I hardly reboot the Apollo. When it "hangs", I will press the STOP button.
Hoping that it will stop on its own.
I will wait for err.. say 1-2 mins and it will automatically stop and back to normal again.
It works for me every time (so far so good lar.. ).

How I wish the Apollo will not get those "hangs" like Japanese CDP..

Hey, ownership would be boring without the quirks

Your PC/laptop will ocassionally does the same so just treat your CDP like a PC lor..

BTW.. Should I go the Ayon path fancy a pre-loved 6 mth old Saturn? Had the Apollo once and trust me the Saturn is loads better in every frequency..

by car o scope on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:54 am

llsaw wrote:
Hey, ownership would be boring without the quirks Your PC/laptop will ocassionally does the same so just treat your CDP like a PC lor..

BTW.. Should I go the Ayon path fancy a pre-loved 6 mth old Saturn? Had the Apollo once and trust me the Saturn is loads better in every frequency..

Wah... I just stopped myself from the upgraditis fever leh..

Hahahahaha.. I'd better log off sooner..
Poisons are coming towards me.. Razz

by llsaw on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:59 am

car o scope wrote:
llsaw wrote:
Hey, ownership would be boring without the quirks Your PC/laptop will ocassionally does the same so just treat your CDP like a PC lor..

BTW.. Should I go the Ayon path fancy a pre-loved 6 mth old Saturn? Had the Apollo once and trust me the Saturn is loads better in every frequency..

Wah... I just stopped myself from the upgraditis fever leh..

Hahahahaha.. I'd better log off sooner..
Poisons are coming towards me..

Believe me the Saturn will make the Apollo sound flat, lacking in bass and PRAT

by **bassraptor** on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:07 am

wow, poison assault going on! ha ha .. yes, i would vouch for the saturn over the apollo.

saw: if balanced inputs not required, also listen to the CD-1s ... more expensive, though.

by llsaw on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:18 am

bassraptor wrote:wow, poison assault going on! ha ha .. yes, i would vouch for the saturn over the apollo.

saw: if balanced inputs not required, also listen to the CD-1s ... more expensive, though.

Will do. Thanks for the advice..

by **bassraptor** on Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:53 am

saw your pm, tks, replied ...

by llsaw on Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:00 pm

bassraptor wrote:saw your pm, tks, replied ...

Yup thanks and I've replied..

by car o scope on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:25 pm

Well, upgrading system is not the priority now.
I have something else which are more important these days.
Young man better not spent all of the savings eh.. hehehehehe.. Razz

by **bassraptor** on Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:15 am

My policy is if the world were to end tomorrow, you would have saved for nothing and enjoyed nothing. So spend what you have or don't have, enjoy .... 2012 isn't far away ...

by car o scope on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:00 pm

I spent until I have nothing already.. Razz

by **bassraptor** on Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:40 am

coming up, one ayon review by llsaw ...

by kkthen on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:32 pm

Good. That's the reason why llsaw sell his CD player. Ayon must be very poison.

by Landy on Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:20 pm

watching this space with keen interest...

by jimel71 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:12 pm

One poison that I don't mind having..even sweeter than sugar!

by llsaw on Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:15 pm

bassraptor wrote:coming up, one ayon review by llsaw ...

Yes Sir! Here you go..

The Ayon CD1S is a Godzilla amongst cd players. Or at least compared to my Saturn which takes on Hobbit like proportions when compared size wise with the Ayon. Even my Primare looks small next to the CD1S. Apart from the gargantuan sizing the build quality for this machine is most outstanding and makes my Saturn look like paper mache. The CD1S weighs 12kg which is also 2X the Saturn’s 6. Every surface is brushed aluminum and the “CD tray” is also the same material and not plastic/nylon on the Saturn. The control buttons on top have a nice tactile feel and a lovely reddish hue as backlighting. The display has nice dot matrix fonts and most interestingly cannot be turned off. It can be dimmed to near off like my previous Marantz CD63 MKII KIS but cannot be turned completely off. Also when the upsampling option is activated the display lights up with “24/192” and this can be in any shade so long as it’s the brightest red. The control buttons are still glowing red but also cannot be turned off. Luckily they’re on top of the player rather than in front. Sometimes I just don’t understand hi-fi designers. Some give u the capability to switch off the display, some to dim it and some offer no control but I’ve yet to encounter one which give you both the option of dimming and switching off. Is it so difficult to design such a display?

The back panel sports lovely US made CMC output RCA/phono sockets but no XLR option which the previous gen CD1 has. There is a digital out via RCAs and most importantly a SPDIF input! I guess this signal’s the start sojourn into server based PC music. There is also another bright red led at the back to tell you if the electrical supply phase polarity is incorrect. Some one in Ayon must have a fetish for red lights! Ayon is Austrian though and not Dutch Razz

Obviously our UK plugs is wired differently from US/EU Schuko hence the display lit up the moment the power cable is connected to the wall outlet. No need to even turn on the CDP. I tried the Schuko plug from the stock power cable off my Primare in reversed fashion (right and left swapped) and the display stayed off. Unfortunately my Siltech power cable terminated with Russ Andrews UK plug sounds loads better than the stock Primare cable hence will have to get use to the rear led. There does not seem to be any detrimental effect to sound quality. Don’t know if there’ll be any reliability issues in the long term. The local dealer says NO.

The on/off rocker switch on the CD1S is in the same position as my Primare (bottom front right side and left side if you’re facing the player). Turn it on and the display shows “Warm Up” in nice bright red. This warm up function is apparently to extend the longetivity of the valves and lasts for a couple seconds (I did not bother to time) and which the Ayon is now ready to be of service. CD reading is F1 fast compared to my Kancil like Rega. The earlier CD1 did not have an automatic switch build in hence you had to press the remote for it to read CDs but the CD1S does this automatically which is a real improvement in usability.

Even though my unit is a showroom demo item and likely well run it the CD1S still takes bout 30 minutes to nicely warm up. This warm up characteristic is similar my Saturn. While the Saturn just sounds super bright before warm up the Ayon is just lacking in a bit of detail and focus. So how is the sound quality? Ayon mentions the following in it’s user manual:- “The output level of studio microphones under typical recording conditions contain peaks far in excess of what VU meters display. Everyone knows that, but the peaks as measured in an oscilloscope are really quite high, easily exceeding 1 volt! The tube or transistor used in a condenser microphone or in a microphone preamp often will be driven into severe overload by these peaks. The peaks are short, so the sound isn’t grossly distorted-sounding; but the distorted peaks do effect what we hear. All preamps (& condenser microphone electronics) are overloaded by these peaks, but tubes handle it differently than solid state devices. When transistors overload (in a discrete circuit or OP amp), the dominant distortion product is the 3^rd harmonic. The 3^rd harmonic “produces a sound many musicians refer to as blanketed”. Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong 3^rd actually makes the tone thin & hard. On the other hand, with tubes (particularly triodes) the dominant distortion product is the 2^nd harmonic. Musically the 2^nd is an octave above the fundamental & is almost inaudible, yet it adds body to the sound making it fuller”. Tubes sound better because their distortion products are more musical. Tubes provide a mopre appropriate load to transducers. These are the fundamental reasons why tubes simply sound better”

So does the CD1S sound tube like? In a way yes but mostly NO in a positive sense. Before I go into details let me tell you some of my misconceptions on tube which I’ve heard and read many a time except for super high end Nagras and Audio Research.

Tubes (valves if you are European) sound too sweet in the treble region. Perfect for Tsai Chin but rock recordings might need some grit to maintain the musicality. This makes it sound like the singer has just downed a nice super duper ginseng honey lemon drink before recording the vocal.
Tubes are slow and frequently exhibit bloated midbass excess

The Ayon CD1S is a big bold dynamic CD player with a capital P for PRAT. This is the most Naim like cd player I’ve heard in terms of Pace, Rhythm and Timing. Play dense music with a strong beat or plenty of percussion and the CD1S will show u the meaning of PRAT. All this from a valve output CDP. And they tell you the earth is flat. Unbelievable! The CD1S actually outperformed my Saturn in this area and is close to something like a solid state Naim CD5X/XS from memory. I kept on getting enthralled by timing of all the backing instruments in The Police’s Synchronicity. Track #4 “Weird Fishes/Arpeggi” has been one of my reference tracks and the backing tindersticks really stood out in prominence with its precise rhythm. Fab!

Next the Ayon has bass. Loads of big fat, rounded yet fast musical and punchy bass. Bass quality is akin a good Marantz and actually makes my Saturn feel a bit bass light which my Saturn definitely ain’t on its own and only comes out short when comparing to the Ayon. To quantify it as much as possible while the Saturn has 30% improvement in bass over the Apollo the Ayon CD1S is another 10% improvement. Massive Attack’s Mezzanine and Heligonland album really shook the house especially track#1 “Angel” from Mezzanine. Ferenc Snetberger’s excellent acoustic guitar jazz masterpiece “Nomad” was another demonstration with track #9 “Move” again demonstrating the Ayon’s bass qualities.

The 2 plus points I’ve just mentioned dispel misconception #2!

What about misconception #1? On early first listen the CD1S seemed to support this with the treble initially sounding a wee bit truncated. But wait. How can the highs be rolled off when the CD1S is actually mining more detail out of a recording compared to my already excellent Saturn? Yes, you did not read wrong. The CD1S is capable of mining more detail from a Saturn + Finite Elemente Ceraball combo. And this is demonstrated consistently. Play a recording you are used to and on both the Saturn and CD1S and latter is always capable of presenting more detail no previously heard. Likewise the Ayon also exhibited better imaging and separation. And a bigger soundstage too! On further listen I can conclude that the treble is just of different quality compared to the Saturn. The Saturn sounds more “digital” like a conventional cd player and sharper in the upper registers compared to the Ayon which I initially though as more extended. Switching off the upsampling option seem to confirm this with the treble becoming sharper and the sound quality on overall becoming more “CD Like”. I played Radiohead’s In Rainbows album and the treble certainly didn’t sound too sweet. I must say I occasionally prefer the bite of the Saturn on some guitar plucks but the CD1S offers better everywhere else. The Ayon can also sound bright but less hard or less of the digital glare compared to the Saturn. I guess this supports the distortion product argument presented by Ayon in its user manual. The midrange is also definitely fuller and more saturated than the Saturn (another valve quality). If I were to draw an EQ curve it would be flatter and less “smile” or even hump like compared to the Saturn.

As you’d gather I like the CD1S very much but I do have some reservations/misgivings:

Tube/valve life. he valves are pretty cheap too by audiophile valve standards and the CD1S only uses 2. The higher end CD2 uses 4!
The remote uses similar protocol as my Primare but not the same. This becomes a major pain as when selecting tracks on the CD1S via its remote I’m also switching the Primare’s input. Arrrgghhh! Luckily my Primare’s remote is able to control the Ayon’s playing functions to a limited extend. Play, stop, pause and forward/backward ok. Just no track selection The Ayon also has an internal digital volume but playing with that on the Ayon’s remote also screwed up my Primare

Are the misgivings enough to deter me from getting the CD1S? Not at this point. And how much better is the CD1S compared to a Saturn and does the law of diminishing returns apply? To a certain extent yes if you’re getting the CD1S at its list price of MYR15K. To-date the biggest jump in sound quality from my personal experiences has been going from Proac Studio 125s to Audiophysic Scorpios, followed by 12 year old Audiolab 8000S to Primare I30. I would rate this fourth and slightly less than going from an Apollo to a Saturn. If the Scorpios presented a 50% improvement then going from Saturn to CD1S would be ~25%. Not a massive hike but definitely very noticeable. What an excellent CD player...

by jimel71 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:36 pm

Wow..long review. It's nice to see that you're using Primare I30. I think it is a good match..from my ears' point of hearing..congrats on yr new 'toy'..

by llsaw on Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:44 pm

jimel71 wrote:Wow..long review. It's nice to see that you're using Primare I30. I think it is a good match..from my ears' point of hearing..congrats on yr new 'toy'..

It's not mine la.. Just doing a review at this point. Whether I get it or not would depend on finding a nice new home for my Saturn.

by jimel71 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:01 pm

Hope it'll be yours in the future.

by **bassraptor** on Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:16 pm

Hmmm ... maybe even a Stibbert looking for new home ....

by llsaw on Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:46 pm

bassraptor wrote:Hmmm ... maybe even a Stibbert looking for new home ....

Lets start an Ayon fan club!

by **bassraptor** on Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:22 pm

we need more people!!

by car o scope on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:56 pm

That review is easily longer than those found in What HiFi. Razz

by llsaw on Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:48 am

car o scope wrote:That review is easily longer than those found in What HiFi.

What HiFi does reviews ah?

by tycham on Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:54 am

car o scope wrote:That review is easily longer than those found in What HiFi.

Also longer than my graduating thesis!

by car o scope on Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:58 am

llsaw wrote:

What HiFi does reviews ah?

Well.. at least in their perspective..

by arremie on Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:20 am

wow tube cdp...interesting...

by **bassraptor** on Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:06 am

arremie wrote:wow tube cdp...interesting...

not a very new idea ... been happening for a few years already ...

by arremie on Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:11 am

I know. I saw the thread but never thought Ayon is a tube cdp. I'm currently looking into getting one but not this Ayon...too expensive for me. Might look into some cheaper tube cdp.

by llsaw on Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:05 pm

A follow up report:

The Ayon has its own volume control and is able to function as a limited preamp. A typical CDP output is in the ~2V range but the CD1S is capable of 4.6V rms. The volume operates in the digital domain from 0 to -60 with 0 being max volume. Common sense and experience with my previous Marantz CD63 MKII KIS seem to indicate max volume to be the best sounding but this does not seem to be the case with my setup. Set the Ayon’s internal volume to max and the midrange can get a tad shouty while bass is less and sound is more congested. Perhaps the higher gain is causing more noise and my Primare doesn’t like the higher input voltage. I tested various volume settings and -6 seem to be a decent compromise. Even at -8 setting I’m using less volume on my Primare’s volume control. Talk about prodigeous output! The Ayon also emits relay switching noises when selecting CD tracks or end of CD but this is not intrusive to me.

The Ayon excels on all kinds of music from jazz to vocal to pop to electronic to rock. I tried The Verve, Joy Division, Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Mary Chapin Carpenter, etc etc. and the Ayon seemed to bring the best virtues out of all. Peter Hooks’s bass defines the melody in Joy Division songs and on the Ayon this really had a life of its own jumping out from the Audio Physic. Tonality and timbre was better than my Saturn. All the raw energy and this unique (to me) electric bass playing style really got me into air guitar mode. My wife came home to find me prancing about in full air guitar mode. Sorry Razz

Also one thing for sure. This is definitely not a warm cd player. I can even say it is a tad bright. Definitely does not sound anything like a classic tube based electronic cept for the analogue like top end which is well depicted on vocals. Am interested to hear how the CD07 sounds like but the unit I'm supposed to audition has been bought so it's the CD2 next!

by **bassraptor** on Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:09 pm

My Bluenote Stibbert is for sale ... see classifieds ...

by llsaw on Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:10 pm

bassraptor wrote:My Bluenote Stibbert is for sale ... see classifieds ...

Good luck Bro!

by llsaw on Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:50 am

A little bird told me Ayon is bout to launch an exciting new cdp