Does XLR (balanced) or RCA (single ended) sound better?

To your ears only please. No mumbo jumbo mathematical equations or you heard it from your best friend's cousin's uncle's brother..

According to my father's one and only son's own listening thorugh a pair of ears which we share XLR is better. May not apply to anyone elses system but speaking for my own system, from my Levinson DAC to Krell integrated, the XLR beat my RCA connection.

One thing to be aware is that XLR is approximately 6db louder than RCA so upon first listen, the XLR connection might sound more impressive immediately. But to make a fair comparison you'll have to match the levels when comparing XLR to RCA.

On my system with levels unscientifically matched, the XLR has better treble extension and separation. Focus is also vastly improved and the whole soundstage is expanded with more accurate placement of instruments and voices.

On my system I prefer XLR.

bimmerman wrote:According to my father's one and only son's own listening thorugh a pair of ears which we share XLR is better. May not apply to anyone elses system but speaking for my own system, from my Levinson DAC to Krell integrated, the XLR beat my RCA connection.

One thing to be aware is that XLR is approximately 6db louder than RCA so upon first listen, the XLR connection might sound more impressive immediately. But to make a fair comparison you'll have to match the levels when comparing XLR to RCA.

On my system with levels unscientifically matched, the XLR has better treble extension and separation. Focus is also vastly improved and the whole soundstage is expanded with more accurate placement of instruments and voices.

On my system I prefer XLR.

Thanks Bro. Am contemplating to try out the XLR route but one of regular dealers actually told me RCA is better..

Bt the way, my RCA cable costs almost RM2,000 when new while my XLR only costs RM600.

I think this depends on the analogue stage of the CD player/DAC. Most of them are optimised for single ended output, and achieve balanced out merely by applying a differential op-amp to the single ended outputs. If this is the case, then the balanced out goes through additional IC's and do not better the single ended outputs.

Perhaps the higher end cd players use balanced transformers to achieve the balanced outputs which negates the use of diff IC for possibly better results. Similar to the high end Audio Note DACs and Jeff Rowland's pre-amps which have trans coupling.

But if the DAC is a truly differential design with differential outputs to the buffer stage, then I believe balanced should be superior. But this really does double the part count and with exotic parts like Vishay bulk foil resistors, the cost is really prohibitive.

So really, need to check back at the source.

Thanks for all the inputs. I will try this experiment when my Ayon CD2S arrives. RCA with Siltech interconnect to my Primare and XLR with same interconnect to my Primare's balanced input. Will report my findings..

Mr. F8, I think you have given the best answer here. Kudos!

Maybe that's why my Levinson sounds better using the balanced connection. It has 2 D/A processors per channel, one outputting the signal and the other at 180 degrees which feeds the balanced outputs directly.

I don't know about LLSAW's Ayon but if it implements this topology then the XLR output would surely be quite a few leagues ahead of the RCA outputs.

Thanks bimmerman. No biggie just my 2sen.

llsaw (how's the DMS btw.. ), i could only find the CD2 (non S) on Ayon's site which states it has 2 PCM1704.


If you see the pinouts, the PCM1704 only has a single Iout per IC. Which means for true differential you need 4 chips which is implemented in Ayon'sSkylla DAC. So I suspect CD2 may not be full differential from DAC out.

In any case, even if the 2nd 6H30 tube merely amplifies the inverted signal of the same DAC for the cold pin, there should be more drive. Though in terms of digital error averaging, it won't be better than full 4 DAC implementation.

I'm glad to see Ayon didn't take the easy path out by using PCM1794 which has 4 Iouts in 1 IC as I believe the 1704 is superior.

f8. wrote:Thanks bimmerman. No biggie just my 2sen.

llsaw (how's the DMS btw.. ), i could only find the CD2 (non S) on Ayon's site which states it has 2 PCM1704.


If you see the pinouts, the PCM1704 only has a single Iout per IC. Which means for true differential you need 4 chips which is implemented in Ayon'sSkylla DAC. So I suspect CD2 may not be full differential from DAC out.

In any case, even if the 2nd 6H30 tube merely amplifies the inverted signal of the same DAC for the cold pin, there should be more drive. Though in terms of digital error averaging, it won't be better than full 4 DAC implementation.

I'm glad to see Ayon didn't take the easy path out by using PCM1794 which has 4 Iouts in 1 IC as I believe the 1704 is superior.

Hi F8,

The DMS Giant 50mm has been sold along with the car many many moons ago.

BTW, it looks like car mods and hi-fi go together rather well

Yr dealer might be correct.

I do not think yr Primaire or Ayon is True Balanced, therefore RCA connector wld sound better. Yr sound is compromised if you use XLR. It is just a connector of convenience for yr system.

True balanced amplifiers like FM acoustic, Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland, MBL, Krell etc wld give you a visibily much quieter and better sound overall. But be careful when mixing different brands as the polarity is different. This is much more important than the polarity of mains power line.

balanced connections when PROPERLY implemented will always outperform single-ended connections.

balanced connections will have a much lower noise floor resulting in better dynamics and detail. for long cables, xlr interconnects r better cos they r more immune to rfi/emi.

as for the polarity, there is a difference in components made in the us/japan and europe. if all yr components r from japan or us, it shld be ok to use xlr. but if one is from europe and the other is from us/japan, there may be polarity problems.

these days the standard way is pin 1 - ground, pin 2 - hot and pin 3 - cold. chk with yr manuals just in case.

VS126 nailed this... most american brands (Krell, Jeffy Rowly, Marky the Jew) follow pin 1 as GND, Pin 2 as Hot (non-inverting) , and Pin 3 as Cold (inverted).

FM Acoustics is one example where they have their Pin-2 and Pin-3 flipped instead.

Not sure about Nagra though whether if theirs is mainstream, or flipped.

SFLAM, yes, generally most mfgs will prefer the owners to use balanced connections over the single-ended ones... as regularly written in the owner manuals.

But according to one close guru (whom shall not be named for he wishes to remain anonymous at all times but u and i know who he is), who will always swear that single-ended links will always give a more "revealing and detailed" presentation over balanced connections. In fact, his custom made cables always achieve better sonic performances than the balanced ones and up to date, the balanced ones can only manage to "match" but never "better" the single-ended ones (but u probably have heard the same thing from him already as well) .... So perhaps single-ended jobs do have their merits as well. Especially in environments where noise shielding is not much of a concern, there is really not much of a drawback in RCA jobs vs XLR jobs.

As far as I know, Rowland and Krell does not prescribe to the same pin polarity. That is why when people just drop in a Rowland into a full krell system does not like the sound and vice versa.

Rowland amp is the same as the Japanese pin configuration. Do not know if it is changed in his new amps.

We have alot of gurus locally but if you were to take a RCA connector and compare with XLR connector in a non TRUE BALANCED system, the RCA connector will always sound better, 10 out of 10. In a TRUE BALANCED system, it will always be the XLR which will come up tops. So one must always know the parameters of testing.

And the so called Balanced preamp/amplifier and CD player etc is only pseudo balanced ie not TRUE BALANCED. A lot of amps with balanced connector at the rear is not true balanced. Do not be fooled by it.

ah yes ... i stand corrected, Jeff Rowlies are Pin-3 hot.

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/948/

Then there are also XLR-RCA BaL-Un adapters .... which shorts out the inverting to ground.

VS126 wrote:Yr dealer might be correct.

I do not think yr Primaire or Ayon is True Balanced, therefore RCA connector wld sound better. Yr sound is compromised if you use XLR. It is just a connector of convenience for yr system.

True balanced amplifiers like FM acoustic, Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland, MBL, Krell etc wld give you a visibily much quieter and better sound overall. But be careful when mixing different brands as the polarity is different. This is much more important than the polarity of mains power line.

Primare's features here:
http://www.primare.net/product.asp?ProductID=38&d=2

I have the XLR connection diagrams for both Primare and Ayon so this will not be an issue. Both are EU anyway - Primare (Swedish) & Ayon (Austrian)

Peeps! Can someone help me confirm my Jew No.36s and Italian American KAV-300i share the same pin designations? The pairing sounds amazing though!

What I meant is that if they are not TRUE BALANCED, it is no point using XLR connector. It will just be rerouting to single ended internally with damanging signal caused by the extra connector.

Most lowly balanced amp and CD player are not true balanced.

Is the Krell KAV300i true balanced???

bimmerman wrote:Is the Krell KAV300i true balanced???

Yes it is lah .... dun worry !!!

And so is the Marky Jew DAC.

VS126 wrote:What I meant is that if they are not TRUE BALANCED, it is no point using XLR connector. It will just be rerouting to single ended internally with damanging signal caused by the extra connector.

Most lowly balanced amp and CD player are not true balanced.

AV126 and Gents,

How do you check out whether the equipments are 'truly balanced' or not. Do we have to get circuit diagrams, as I'm unsure of my equipments should be categorised as 'highly or lowly balanced amp and cdp/dacs' ?

Anyway, just checked the downloaded pdf manuals and so far the hot/cold/ground pins of these products seem OK despite their different nationalities . Amp: Pathos Logos (Italian)/Benchmark DAC1 (American)/Cambridge 840C (British/PRC). I have to check my local 1Malaysia Boleh Promitheus Audio Tube DAC with its creator to confirm whether it's truly balanced or not. To be honest, my knowledge in electronics is basically 'red for right channel' and the other is for the left channel. , therefore these rather ;silly' questions.

Anyway, based on my initial comparo of the 840C vs Promintheus (both running XLRs, silver), IMHO, the latter has a slight edge over the 840C and I personally find XLRs sounds better for both cdp/dac.

BTW, this seems to be a very 'balanced' (pun intended) and sensible thread here, bravo.

My 2sens,

zb

Sorry for confusion.

What I mean is mid fi pre/power etc. Usually they have balanced connector to facilitate wider type of cables and also as a marketing ploy.(increase perceived value), but it will sound worse as compared to their rca port.

Balanced amp is expensive to make, with twice their component count to make it true balanced.