Soundstage is just an illusion: From Harbeth

AUDIOING:
Why does Soundstage Depth and Width Change with Toe-In?

Alan A. Shaw wrote ;

"Really! You are both worrying far, far too much! Do what seems right to you. This question of "what is best" can not be answered scientifically because there are so many variables, including where the microphones were positioned, the shape of your outer ear etc, etc, etc. I have already stated in my post here, stereo imaging is an illusion. It is entirely a construct inside your own brain. Your brain (somehow) builds a mental model by mapping the sound that you hear over your speakers via your two ears to those you have previously experienced in real. All this exposure is knitted together in to a sonic model that allows you to imagine in your head how performers were arranged in 3D space at the recording venue. But the person sitting next to you may have a radically different mental model. Wives, for example, frequently can not understand or appreciate their husbands fascination with hi-fi-they are entirely happy with their kitchen radio. This is because they have a different mental model of how music sounds.

Your brain creates a sonic database before birth and refines it throughout your life according to your sonic experiences, the concerts you have attended, the types of instruments you have heard, different acoustic environments etc. If you have not been to a live concert, never hear a live instrument but only been exposed to the sound via a cheap radio you would have a very different mental sound database to draw experience from. Conversely, if you are a professional musician playing and working with your instrument, you may find it impossible to listen to hifi sound. Many professional musicians seem perfectly satisfied with very modest low- fi audio equipment at home.

Throw the grand theory out of the window- what is right for your brain, your music, your taste is right. Go with what sound best to you.

P.S. I strongly recommend that you make an effort to go to live (classical) concerts where instruments can be heard live not via a PA speaker system. Your concept of stereo imaging, great depth, perspective etc, may well radically changed after such exposure. For one thing, at a real live concert, you will find that "pin point imaging" and great depth does not exist. What you experience live is a wash of sound....

P.P.S the fact that many people have different exposure to live sound - and hence, a different internal sonic database in their brain to draw on - makes the business of hi-fi reviewing rather problematic. When we read a hifi review, there are so many unknown for us, the reader to contend with. Not only have we no exposure to the equipment under review we do not know about the reviewer's associated equipment, his room, his musical taste or his previous exposure to live music (if any) and how sophisticated his mental sonic look-up table is. However, one thing that we all do know about is speech since we are all surrounded by live speech all our lives if we have not seen of heard an instrument. That make speech an excellent test material for evaluating loudspeakers.

Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK
Courtesy of uncle Vic

Pick from AUDIOING
http://audioing.blogspot.com/2009_11_01_archive.html

What Mr Shaw mentioned about soundstaging and imaging is spot on. So those imaging and soundstage freak, time to downgrade?

After all the time and money spent, we realize that what we done is just to cheat on our brain which interprete, think or imagine base on our previous experience. The Hifi-ers make us to believe the illusion is real.

- Welcome to the Matrix.

Looks like someone has 'woke up'?

wataru wrote:After all the time and money spent, we realize that what we done is just to cheat on our brain which interprete, think or imagine base on our previous experience. The Hifi-ers make us to believe the illusion is real.

- Welcome to the Matrix.

CT-Boy wrote:Looks like someone has 'woke up'?

So , u all are most welcome to take the red pill and go play some other hobby lah. No need to discuss anything about audio reproduction anymore.

mugenfoo wrote:

wataru wrote:After all the time and money spent, we realize that what we done is just to cheat on our brain which interprete, think or imagine base on our previous experience. The Hifi-ers make us to believe the illusion is real.

- Welcome to the Matrix.

So , you are most welcome to take the red pill and go play some other hobby lah.

2 min later...

mugenfoo wrote:

wataru wrote:After all the time and money spent, we realize that what we done is just to cheat on our brain which interprete, think or imagine base on our previous experience. The Hifi-ers make us to believe the illusion is real.

- Welcome to the Matrix.

CT-Boy wrote:Looks like someone has 'woke up'?

So , u all are most welcome to take the red pill and go play some other hobby lah. No need to discuss anything about audio reproduction anymore.

lol...

so wataru, ... red pill or blue pill for u ?

Or you can't even figure this out coz you're still having trouble with polarities issit ?

BTW, u really almost got to be my no.1 fan to follow so closely on the posting .. Have u sent in your ear's FM-curve report yet ? Please do so soon... you might even be chosen to be Vice-President of my fan club .... hurry hurry.

I need no pills, im free to enter and out from the Matrix now.

wataru wrote:I need no pills, im free to enter and out from the Matrix now.

Highly suspect .... if u cant even figure out simple plug polarities, you might think you're in the matrix when you're not. So just to safe, try not to jump off a building roof or fly through the sky ok? Otherwise some other people might have to clean up the mess u leave behind.

But that is just one person's view. Maybe he cannot get his speakers to image as well as others, might be a good marketing ploy. Smart Alan.

I heard many system, like audionote ANE, Usher BE718 & SF Concertino. When the speaker placement is correct, we can get the good imaging & soundstage. Even I can heard some recording, got sound appear near my right ear position.

of coz all these soundstaging is an illusion. The actual band and singer is not really standing in your living room and giving u a personal performance right ?

Just like the flat screen when u watch TV, or going to watch Avatar in 3D is as much an illusion as the stereo imaging and soundstaging, etc due to the speaker placement.

So maybe the name of the game is to "get best possible illusion" by placing the speakers to get the optimal illusion.

Same thing like how the ISF people and their colour-calibration meters go from Cinema to cinema and calibrate the colour, brightness, contrast tones to make sure that when the audience watch Avatar in 3D, the crowd is wowed and pleased.
so whats the problem with it being an illusion ?

ean/nfs once told me. its not yourfi, hisfi or herfi, its myfi. totally agree. do whatever suits us best. ris low oso said "its my style". wow.

same goes to mental horsepower freaks. if changing to iridium plugs or mobil1 gives you 10mental hp. go ahead. syiok sendiri ok ma. hehe.

I like the part where he says that ACTUAL live music is just a "wash of sound", which just goes to show how men are so easily tomfooleried into spending top dollar for things that really don't count for much in practical terms...I guess the whole "imaging" thing got started when people started buying into the notion that imaging was indeed the way to go in all things hi fi.No offence, but no wonder some women think we men are losers... heh

jcwlow wrote:I like the part where he says that ACTUAL live music is just a "wash of sound", which just goes to show how men are so easily tomfooleried into spending top dollar for things that really don't count for much in practical terms...I guess the whole "imaging" thing got started when people started buying into the notion that imaging was indeed the way to go in all things hi fi.No offence, but no wonder some women think we men are losers... heh

you'd be surprised that some women who are into hifi, actually have even more acumen in hearing out for all these "illusions" vs. "just a wash of sound"...

mugenfoo wrote:

jcwlow wrote:I like the part where he says that ACTUAL live music is just a "wash of sound", which just goes to show how men are so easily tomfooleried into spending top dollar for things that really don't count for much in practical terms...I guess the whole "imaging" thing got started when people started buying into the notion that imaging was indeed the way to go in all things hi fi.No offence, but no wonder some women think we men are losers... heh

you'd be surprised that some women who are into hifi, actually have even more acumen in hearing out for all these "illusions" vs. "just a wash of sound"...

heh yeap I wont be surprised, dude....maybe some of em ought to start designing hi fi even...Would be nice to have a Jane Levinson or a Mary Rowland gracing the stage......heh

Hahaha...I have always admired Alan Shaw. He makes sense. I love his take on bi-wiring. When you really look at it pragmatically, we have all been fooled. How else can you justify putting cables in expensive wooden cases and charging the price of a car for it? Yet there will be people buying it.

We are all suckers one way or another. Some more so than others. Its a hobby, it does not need to make sense and it gives a sense of enjoyment. So long as it makes you happy. If happiness means spending the cost of a semi detach house in Damansara on hifi, good for you. Rock on. I can think of worse ways to spend money.

Mugenfoo, I take it you disagree with Alan Shaw? (its quite difficult to decipher what you are trying to say, you write a lot but say nothing).. In any event, with over 1400 posts, it can mean either:
a. you have an opinion on everything under the sun;
b. you know everything/a Mr know-it-all or
c. you are an automated bot here...

I guess you can also design speakers like harbeths?

be careful sleme....he has a fan club.

sanguine wrote:be careful sleme....he has a fan club.

Opps...trembling already....might be bombarded with some technical jargon that I cannot understand and being called an ignoramus who doesn't know anything about hifi. Eh.. wait..I forgot, I really dont give a toss..

sleme wrote:
Mugenfoo, I take it you disagree with Alan Shaw? (its quite difficult to decipher what you are trying to say, you write a lot but say nothing).. In any event, with over 1400 posts, it can mean either:
a. you have an opinion on everything under the sun;
b. you know everything/a Mr know-it-all or
c. you are an automated bot here...

I guess you can also design speakers like harbeths?

d. I'm your daddy.

Back to the point ... Stereo perceptions are the same analogy as a moving image on a TV screen or cinema screen. They are all illusions, and everyone knows it. So the game here is to get the best believable and realistic illusion (aka faithful re-production of the source). Dunno why some of u find it so hard to grasp this simple idea.

The topic starter about this all being an illusion here is just re-stating the obvious only.

LOLOLOL!!!

Help me understand this mugenfoo.....since no one debated the fact that music when heard live is a wash of sound with no pinpoint imaging etc then shouldnt High Fidelity be the exact reproduction of that wash of sound?

Sculptured sound is an illusion and I admit entertaining but doesnt that detract from High Fidelity? aka faithful reproduction of the source which is a wash of sound?

Why does Soundstage Depth and Width Change with Toe-In?

Interesting topic but can anyone explain the effect of toe-in on soundstage depth and width? Would really appreciate that.

Bite wrote:Help me understand this mugenfoo.....since no one debated the fact that music when heard live is a wash of sound with no pinpoint imaging etc then shouldnt High Fidelity be the exact reproduction of that wash of sound?

Sculptured sound is an illusion and I admit entertaining but doesnt that detract from High Fidelity? aka faithful reproduction of the source which is a wash of sound?

there are plenty of CDs/ LPs of Live recordings that are truly a "wash of sound" ... no matter that toe in or speaker arrangement of the hifi system may be .

If the recording engineer decided to capture a "wash of sound" image .... and when played back , also gives a "wash of sound" illusion... whats the problem or issue then ?

For example: Even some studio recordings of Vienna Boys Choir is also a "wash of sound" .

tycham wrote:Why does Soundstage Depth and Width Change with Toe-In?

Interesting topic but can anyone explain the effect of toe-in on soundstage depth and width? Would really appreciate that.

This has got to do with something called "radiation pattern" of the speakers...

U can check stereophile articles for such examples of these measurements they do on their speaker reviews.

The magicians will tell you, what they done is illusion not magic. Even many of them have claim them self as illusionist instead of magician now.

But in hifi word, the Hifi stakeholders will tell you, what sound is 'real', what sound is musical, analog, detail, clean, uncolored, pure, and etc. They have different ways to do this, to convince you. But in the end, its all down to one reason.

I really respect those highly enthusiast hifi kaki, but also feel compassion. There is no harm right, as long as they have the financial ability.

salute to you:

http://fataudioblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/part12.html
http://fataudioblog.blogspot.com/2008/12/part13.html

[quote="mugenfooIf the recording engineer decided to capture a "wash of sound" image .... and when played back , also gives a "wash of sound" illusion... whats the problem or issue then ?[/quote]

No problem or issue mugenfoo. See your point. An illusion of a delusion.

Harbeth's Alan said: "I strongly recommend that you make an effort to go to live (classical) concerts where instruments can be heard live not via a PA speaker system. Your concept of stereo imaging, great depth, perspective etc, may well radically changed after such exposure. For one thing, at a real live concert, you will find that "pin point imaging" and great depth does not exist. What you experience live is a wash of sound...."


by Bite Today at 3:23 pm

Help me understand this mugenfoo.....since no one debated the fact that music when heard live is a wash of sound with no pinpoint imaging etc then shouldnt High Fidelity be the exact reproduction of that wash of sound?

Alan was talking about a classical concert without pa system i.e. dozens of musicians playing without microphones, amps and speakers. in such a situation, the music would seem to be "a wash of sound" except when the soloists are playing when there should be "pinpoint imaging".

If u listen to a good recording of an orchestra with a good hi-fi system, you will also hear a "wash of sound" and only when the soloists play will you be able to visualise a "pinpoint image" of him/her playing, A good hi-fi system recreates whatever that was recorded during a performance.

obviously, the orchestra is not there in your living room - it's an illusion of the sonic kind.

however, if you attend a concert by a small group, say, a trio without a PA system, i am sure you will be able to hear three separate voices or instruments i.e. three "pinpoint images" and not a "wash of sound".

a good hi-fi system playing a good recording of the trio will be able to recreate the three "pinpoint images".

Bear in mind also that that 'wash of sound' depends a lot of what kind of classical music you are listening to, or rather, who is playing. Is it an entire symphonic orchestra, or a small esemble, etc. Is it something like Beethoven Symphony No.5 or Piano Concerto No..5 The difference between the two is the piano is the 'star' in the 2nd classical piece and you CAN hear the piano's position when you listen to the concerto played live (plus the concerto is played by a much smaller musical group). Also, if one has really attended a live classic concert, then he/she will also know that imaging depends A LOT on WHERE one sits. Premium seat ? Balcony ? And so forth. Ever listened to a duet ? Say piano plus violin ? What about a live singer with single accompaniment, e.g. vocal with guitar accompaniment. One might find Love's Tapestry quite faithful to the actual sound.

The danger as always is OVER GENERALIZATION. To dismiss ALL classical concerts as giving a 'wash of sound' is, to me, not a very professional thing to do. In fact it is very misleading, especially when coming out from someone who's supposed to be a knowledgeable person. There is no qualification of the conditions at all. Just a generalisation. "Listen to a live concert and it's a wash of sound". Somehow many of the classical concert I have attended (both MPO and overseas) did NOT give me a 'wash of sound' (I try my best to sit in the premium seats though).

Everyone is tempted to generalize nowadays. I suppose it has become the modern way of living. As in "tell me the secret to making a million dollars". Is there a simple single action one can do to make a million dollars ? I suppose there is - buying the lottery and striking. Or robbing a bank. The problem is people asking such questions also often add "And, please don't tell me to WORK for it".

Despite of what some people may take Alan Shaw's opinions to be, Harbeth still sells speakers IN STEREO PAIRS (instead of just one massive speaker box , or perhaps offer a bundle of a multitude of speakers) so that it lovingly reproduces "a wash of sound" to the consumer's delight.

Those who lump everything into just "a wash of sound" category but are actually quietly still listening to their favourite music through a PAIR of STEREO speakers, run the risk of coming off as the greatest hypocrites to date...


So why is Harbeth (or any equivalent speaker mfg) still selling Stereo
Pairs ? .... Maybe its got something to do with humans having 2 ears and that we actually hear the world in a "stereoscopic" manner ?
Just as in real life , even with your eyes closed, u can make out the source/direction of noises coming to you right in front, from the sides, behind you, or even from the top and bottom.

Even the "wash of sound" still emanates from a known general location. Be it at a concert hall or via the hi-fi playback system.

Spoiler:

Same scenario as in Roy Gandy saying that VTA adjustments are a "neurosis" , despite the fact that VTA adjustments very evidently alter how a cartridge extracts music from vinyl grooves. But this is a topic for another thread.

by tycham Yesterday at 3:29 pm

Why does Soundstage Depth and Width Change with Toe-In?

Interesting topic but can anyone explain the effect of toe-in on soundstage depth and width? Would really appreciate that

.

this is what i found in the Net...

"Toeing in," or angling, your speakers, instead of aiming them straight at the rear wall, can dramatically improve their staging and imaging by reducing reflections off the side walls. "

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Qe63KWvJR1A/learn/learningcenter/home/nonHTspeak.html
[url][/url]

Now an AV system, on the contrary .. could be the grandmaster of the "wash of sound" system.... As they have been progressing from the Old Dolby Sensurround -> Dolby Surround+Pro Logic -> 5.1, -> 6.1 Neo ->7.1 -> and who knows, 9.1 all the way to X.Y channel systems in the future!

Sonic explosions all around until totally pening !

sflam wrote:

by tycham Yesterday at 3:29 pm

Why does Soundstage Depth and Width Change with Toe-In?

Interesting topic but can anyone explain the effect of toe-in on soundstage depth and width? Would really appreciate that

.

this is what i found in the Net...

"Toeing in," or angling, your speakers, instead of aiming them straight at the rear wall, can dramatically improve their staging and imaging by reducing reflections off the side walls. "

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-Qe63KWvJR1A/learn/learningcenter/home/nonHTspeak.html
[url][/url]

Not all speakers would give positive results from toeing-in especially certain planar type speakers. In this highly subjective matter, the ear could be the final arbitrator of speaker placement, but this pair of ears had better be a pair of ... how did J. Gordon Holt put it ? "Golden Ears!".

But yes, generally toe-in would make a more solid imaging, but eventually at the expense of soundstaging. (fine if some people wanna call it an illusion).

One of the more well known purveyors of hifi in town likes to toe-in the speakers until the spk's outer side cabinets are visible to the listener seated in the sweet spot. This works particularly well in un-forgiving and asymmetrical surroundings (which is most likely the case as alot of us here do not have the luxury of having a truly dedicated & purpose-built hifi room) , and it'll give a pretty good playback job and musical hifi enjoyment.

There is "almost" no scenario that warrants a toe-out arrangement unless the listener has some kind of hearing defect or for some other enigmatic reason to do so. But as to not discount all eventualities .. the keyword here being "almost", not "totally".