DIY PASS F5

by chchyong89 on Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:32 pm

Note: Main page is changed to picture out something just more nice to eyes.

DIY PASS F5

For any inquiries, welcome to drag me a pm Razz

by joeling on Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:26 pm

How much s the lower range to higher range ? 1-2k or 5K ? Personally, if I buy, it will b :

1) Toroid heavy duty (i.e. overrated from Farnell or RS)
2) Case 1
3) No volume control as the gain is low so need a preamp anyway
4) Not sure on this just follow book lah
5) Decent caps low ESR ones will do. Black gate is nice but do they even come in such high value ?
6) 1% Farnell or RS ones will do. Make sure correct rating on wattage
7) PCB - DIYaudio one with screen & tin
Cool

This is audio jewelry my personal preference is the switch craft ones (RCA) from Octave (less metal) & Cardas speaker posts (looks nice)

How much will the above cost ?

Regards,
Joe Ling

by catal2002 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:51 am

Hi,

1)toroidal and overated.R-CORE sound more or less like toroidal to me.
2)2, ..3 look nice but too flimsy.
3)i'm disagree, most expensive amp come with gain control.they don't call it volume.
4)agree
5)standard
6)can mix and match here.metal and carbon.
7)Normal but make the track thicker or bigger
8)You can't save here but give the buyer some choice.

err...a prototype must be made to compare to the original.
Comparing to your ta2024 or gainclone doesn't mean anything.

KLau
www.h1f1.blogspot.com

chchyong89 wrote:After finish building a PASS F5 for myself, i am quite confident with the sound of this little amplifier can do, and it's mile[S] better than my old classic modded TA2024 and gainclone.

Hi gentleman, i am thinking of building it for sell. Hereby i need some advance comment. Help me vote for which should be going and what demand most. I believe the price of the outcome build will be very very very satisfying that everyone can afford compare to any commercial amp!

1. Transformer
Toroidal - cheaper, possibility of vibrating if loads is heavy. Branded Toroidal with higher price might not competive even to normal EL core.
EI core - Bigger size, heavier. More expensive but sound better than toroidal, but induce heat
R core - The most expensive among toroid and EI. No idea how it sound.

2. Casing (which i think it's the most important overall)
case 1 - Custom make fully alluminium with proper heatsink for heat dissipation (which might one-half or double the price of case 2/3)
case 2 - Custom make only front panel is alluminium with normal alloy heatsink
case 3 - Branded casing selective from example DunMei, which i quite dislike because of the printed mark but cheap.

3. Volume control
YES - Nah, just build in front of the panel. (But will it look ugly?)
NO - Since most EXPENSIVE power amplifier don't come with volume control, should i follow?

4. Power supply section
CRC - following exactly pass CRC psu circuit ( using 8 X 15000uF )
Or any suggestion - ?

5. Power supply caps
Expensive caps - blackgate, m-XXX, or something cost up a boom but just slightly have only significant improve/nothing

standard acceptable caps - Panasonic FC / NOVER / ELNA Audio ETC, standard performance with acceptable price

6. Expensive resistors?
Yes -Do you guys like some serious hardcore pricing resistors?
No -Just put commonly used 1% resistors is enough.

7. PCB
Expensive PCB - order from DIYAUDIO, cost roughly 4-5 times of normal PCB

Normal PCB - It just sound the same but with thinner layer etc, but for whom who don't really into the look but just sound, this is the way to go!

8. RCA/banana
Branded expensive jacks - RM200-300 (canare, neutrik etc )

Normal standard jacks - RM50-100

Cheap skate jacks - RM10-20

The price of the total build will be differ from yours vote. After a period of vote i will be started building it for sale, stay tune I believe this is a good news for those who don't wan to spend too much for commercial amplifier and get their ears on the sound signature of PASS LABS.

by chchyong89 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:40 am

joeling wrote:How much s the lower range to higher range ? 1-2k or 5K ? Personally, if I buy, it will b :

1) Toroid heavy duty (i.e. overrated from Farnell or RS)
2) Case 1
3) No volume control as the gain is low so need a preamp anyway
4) Not sure on this just follow book lah
5) Decent caps low ESR ones will do. Black gate is nice but do they even come in such high value ?
6) 1% Farnell or RS ones will do. Make sure correct rating on wattage
7) PCB - DIYaudio one with screen & tin
This is audio jewelry my personal preference is the switch craft ones (RCA) from Octave (less metal) & Cardas speaker posts (looks nice)

How much will the above cost ?

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hi, thanks for the replies. The drafting price will to DIY a F5 will be around RM1.8k more or might even lower depend on the finding parts. RM5k for F5 is ridiculous, it can be done too with a lot of high quality components, but i don't wish to since it don't worth the try in the improvement field for the sound quality. The only expensive parts is the casing, because it's fully aluminium which weight up around 10Kg, as always, the sample heat sink will be tested many times to make sure that F5 will continuously working on CLASS A. And i need for find some serious but not so hardcore silver platted cables netting insides the case especially for those cables lovers to change cables and swapping always, which will make sense on expensive cables.

For the option 7, seem like i need to handle up some optional choice to let the buyer choose, which can full-fill each buyer's needs.

Lastly, stay tune, will be updated with graphically and proper price with choices in month times. bounce

by chchyong89 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:46 am

[quote="catal2002"]Hi,

1)toroidal and overated.R-CORE sound more or less like toroidal to me.
2)2, ..3 look nice but too flimsy.
3)i'm disagree, most expensive amp come with gain control.they don't call it volume.
4)agree
5)standard
6)can mix and match here.metal and carbon.
7)Normal but make the track thicker or bigger
8)You can't save here but give the buyer some choice.

err...a prototype must be made to compare to the original.
Comparing to your ta2024 or gainclone doesn't mean anything.

KLau
www.h1f1.blogspot.com

Appreciate your replies to me, klau.

For the option 1, seem like i need to buying three of them and have a test for each of them with ma friends.. Will be sorting out which is a better invest in further posting soon.

alien

by wabun on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:53 am

Are you sure you can sell it RM1.8K using the:
1. Toroidol
2. Custom aluminium casing with heatsink
3. 8 x 15000uF low ESR caps
4. Silk screen FR4 PCB
5. Exotic socket and connector

? All the best

by chchyong89 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:58 am

The gain of F5 is very acceptable, which can be avoid the use of preamp. A normal DAC with 2V output capable to drive @ 25watt or more. It will be very nice too if pairing with a good preamp. For final consideration, I will cancel the volume control option and let it drive directly. Somehow, i might build up BF862 with alps RK27 or even PGA2311 Razz

by chchyong89 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:02 pm

wabun wrote:Are you sure you can sell it RM1.8K using the:
1. Toroidol
2. Custom aluminium casing with heatsink
3. 8 x 15000uF low ESR caps
4. Silk screen FR4 PCB
5. Exotic socket and connector

? All the best

Exotic socket and connector which will be out of consideration currently. cyclops

Will updates with pictures later which let everyone have the chance eye'ing on it once i get the custom case done. Razz

by wabun on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:05 pm

you hold a good spirit. Malaysia will have bright future if most like you.
keep it up

wish to meet you personally one day.

by joeling on Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:13 pm

I'm mildly interested

by chchyong89 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:14 pm

joeling wrote:I'm mildly interested

Thanks and appreciate for your supportive.

Some minor updates, there are already jew types of F5 pcb on my hands now.

This is the PCB from PeterDaniel which cost another 4 times compare to a pcb i found from ebay.

The size between them. Both are tested and working fine without bugs found.

PS. Due to the distance between the mosfet of the RED PCB is more far apart, the heat dissipation is much more acceptable. bounce

And another updates, my order of two custom make R-core transformer is just reached and ready to test out which will has better sounding over three type transformer.
Which there are EI core and R core transformer standby on my hand now

by joeling on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:49 pm

Another place to buy custom wound power toroidal transformers :

www.torema.com.au

They did custom voltages in the past.

by CT-Boy on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:55 pm

I am also interested but my approach is always 'value for money' Wink

Lets see the possible options..

by wabun on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:54 am

115VA transformer seems a bit struggling for 25W Class A

by CT-Boy on Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:37 am

115? I saw 225VA on the decal..

by wabun on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:21 pm

It is recommended to use between 8 - 10A supply per channel for F5.
that is ~ 350 VA trannie.

by chchyong89 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:02 pm

wabun wrote:It is recommended to use between 8 - 10A supply per channel for F5.
that is ~ 350 VA trannie.

nop, i am using two of it Smile

one 225va for +24Vdc rail, and one 225va for -24Vdc rail Very Happy

by chchyong89 on Sun May 09, 2010 3:21 am

Sorry for the long updates, was busying for my final papers.
I found a pcb with powersupply decoupling caps on it to smoother the rail of powersupply, perhaps i will use it on the first two build.

And voila! the casings had just arrive and it's damn solid and smooth looking, fully thick aluminium with heavy heatsink which weight up 10KG each case! The DIY build of F5 with normal parts will not cost more than 1.8k. Picture will be upload later when i manage to borrow a good camera on hand:( There will be an open door for any of you to test it on june at cyberjaya. Volume control option will be totally cancel because i can't keep my eyes to view on the plane and flat casing. I am aware it will ruin by any switch / onoff buttons.For the first build, it might really will be using:-CRC NOVER 15000uF caps. Which is a pretty decent performer. Which i don't wish to use any lower grade caps because this changes output of the sound 180 degree!
-normal metal film 1% resistors.
-matched pair 2sk and 2sj.
-Ei core transformer, which this is the choice after tested by me and my friend. Toroidal is sound a little bit, too bright? (for those who are interested on my existing tested R core transformers, you can kindly PM me if you want to buy it. Price: PM me for pricing).

The more exotic build will be considered with the part below
The money to pay will be around 20-30% more compare to above build because of the consideration below
-Dale resistors will be used, it's not cheap at all.
-PCB is rather expensive.
-The power supply section will might use of 8 X nichicon KG or other same standard! Twisted Evil

-Neutrick jacks
-A better branded wiring inside.
-And few section might different compare to the budget build.
Razz

by kp93300 on Mon May 10, 2010 9:53 am

Hi chchyong89,
As a owner of a F5, I think sub RM 2K price is very reasonable.
F5 is a very good amp for fence sitters.
keep me posted when you have the BF 862 pre . i am thinking of building one but short of time.
I just completed the pre with J310 and sound nice

kp93300

by chua55 on Mon May 10, 2010 10:34 am

This is the PCB from PeterDaniel which cost another 4 times compare to a pcb i found from ebay.

I would not recommend such statement. one has to be careful. What is provided by Peter Daniel has some 'royalty' to diyaudio forum, without which there is no Pass diy circuit.

For your info, I still have the unit and really has no time (peter daniel board) to complete it.

For the Dunmei casing, the wordings are easily removed using thinner ( in chinese called banana oil) and it is not flimsy at all.

I have listened to the F5 built by mthoi and I am quite impressed with the sound.

instead of toroid, why not EI made in Jalan Pasar.

by chchyong89 on Mon May 10, 2010 12:09 pm

Is it?

For beautiful populate the PD pcb, you need jews of RN50 to fit the board well. else it need to be vertically mount Cool

I have decided to use fully aluminium casing which look a lot more sexy Razz

Yeap, my final decision is using EI. I have order few of it, which is custom make. The workman-craft is not really good looking but the quality is satisfied! Very Happy

by CT-Boy on Mon May 10, 2010 1:28 pm

Yes, although aluminium is a little pricey but it looks better!
As long as it performs, I won't worry too much about the looks. Not that the trannies will be in view at all times, right?
Looking forward for your prototype to be completed. I may bring another DIY amp for comparisons..

by chchyong89 on Tue May 11, 2010 8:17 am

yeap
changing/matching parts to parts for better performance take times, stay tune clown

by wabun on Tue May 11, 2010 8:55 am

Looking forward for your prototype to be completed. I may bring another DIY amp for comparisons..

yeah,I am interest too

let us know when u are ready..

by mthoi on Tue May 11, 2010 10:48 am

I build a F5 kit and got it working about 6 months ago. It is a good simple amplifier to build for a DIY - low parts count and good sonics. Easy to service too.

In my experience, heatsink is paramount - It is a Class A amp and runs hot. I burned about 4 pairs of transistors due to over-biasing.

F5 sounded better with large PSU capacitance - I started with 120,000 uF and moved to 284,000uF. (I have since re used this 284,000 uF to my Aleph J cloen build).

Consider good quality mosfet, jfets and resistors from on-set. The power resistors (rated at 3W) should be higher - I have them at 6W (Vishay Sfernice) and it still runs very hot!

by chchyong89 on Tue May 11, 2010 7:28 pm

That's normal happen on both the 0.47ohm Smile

you can avoid it by replacing MPR in it. tongue

Get it set when the heatsink is warm. When the heat goes higher, the bias will decrease. Although the thermistor is there, but it's not as ideal as it should work as. The only way to reduce it is touch as near as your thermistor to the mosfet.

by chchyong89 on Wed May 12, 2010 2:26 pm

mthoi wrote:
F5 sounded better with large PSU capacitance - I started with 120,000 uF and moved to 284,000uF. (I have since re used this 284,000 uF to my Aleph J cloen build).

If it's too large, current surge on startup might be too much. bounce

i'll stick for nelson pass design, 4X15000uF per rail. It has it reason why this number is chosen. clown

by chchyong89 on Sun May 16, 2010 12:31 am

Sorry for the slow updates, I still can't get my hand on any nice camera to snap the casing, so i try to snap with my low resolution mobile-phone's camera temporally

The real casing is a lot more sexy than in the photo.

It's 10kg, you can imagine how the duties by the heatsink clown

by CT-Boy on Sun May 16, 2010 12:38 am

Looks great! Huge!

by chchyong89 on Mon May 17, 2010 1:15 pm

here is my own F5 build, still changing and choosing parts to listen out the exist of different slowly. Everything will goes smooth, just a little patience is required. clown

by wabun on Mon May 17, 2010 1:50 pm

what speaker and source u are using ?

by chchyong89 on Mon May 17, 2010 1:53 pm

dac - Amb gamma 2
speaker - cheap china speaker.
clown

by wabun on Mon May 17, 2010 1:59 pm

u might need reasonable good speaker to evaluate the F5, it is a very promising design if match correctly. mayb forumers can help 2let u test at their side. just benefit to test more at various setup to evaluate what best component 4 it. just my two cents.

by chchyong89 on Mon May 17, 2010 2:03 pm

you are right I love you

i will/am considering this, just need to wait after finish set up the F5 into the case with proper parts. clown

by CT-Boy on Mon May 17, 2010 3:03 pm

chchyong,
I have 2 sets of floorstanders, and a bookshelf, all British made that may be used for testing purposes. Two of the sets are transportable in the car but not the other one,a huge transmission line. That has to be done at my place Very Happy

I'll wait till you finish the 'prototype' and we'll take it from there.

by chchyong89 on Tue May 18, 2010 1:19 am

Great to hear that! would deeply consider!

by chua55 on Tue May 18, 2010 4:59 pm

Did I see typhoon or Bigwater here ? very interested DIY here.

just wonder how do you clean the aluminium surface is there is some mark? just polish ?

by chchyong89 on Wed May 19, 2010 7:37 am

you mean fingerprints? clown

by dwRK on Wed May 19, 2010 8:29 am

If it's too large, current surge on startup might be too much.
i'll stick for nelson pass design, 4X15000uF per rail. It has it reason why this number is chosen.

you can put in a "surge arrestor" like in most NP's psu design.

NP says he uses whatever he can get his hands on...15000uFs are "bulks" from his commercial work...same like the transformers...also diminishing returns kicks in for more uF...but hey it is diy...

try a search for psu simulators...very useful for designing psu...

by chchyong89 on Wed May 19, 2010 10:43 am

^dwRK
thanks for the good comment, and will figure out slowly. Appreciate Razz

by chua55 on Wed May 19, 2010 11:57 pm

to clear any stains, I use the camera cloth/specs cloth to wipe it clean.

do keep us posted on your progress. remember MTHOI and KP93300 has gone thru some difficult moments with F5 and he can be useful here.

by chchyong89 on Fri May 21, 2010 3:04 pm

little scratchies on the casing is hard to avoid

little photos clown

by CT-Boy on Fri May 21, 2010 3:44 pm

Looking good!

by azri on Fri May 21, 2010 4:02 pm

how much does this actually cost ( in a ready-built form) if a person willing to buy? whats the rating power on this one? is it class A? cheers

by chchyong89 on Fri May 21, 2010 4:12 pm

Just a little bit more patience is required.

Yeap, it's class A biased with 2X25watt@8ohm clown

by azri on Fri May 21, 2010 5:53 pm

saw you post the same pict in diyaudio forum What a Face

all the best, keep updates!!

by chchyong89 on Fri May 21, 2010 6:06 pm

yeap, i gain a lot of knowledges from there Razz

by chchyong89 on Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:41 am

ok, manage to settle down everything in this holiday. 8XNOVER 15000uf CRC PSU is used, and EI is choosed because it come with better sound in my mind.

There are 4 casing on my hands currently, so i only capable build up to 4 set at this moment. And there are two choices for different components.

A)
1780 for
Jalan pasar parts in amp circuits.

B)
1950 for
Better PCB, With RN50, dale and RCD resistors

PM me if you need more details.

by dwRK on Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:32 am

Wow...very very nice indeed...keep it up!!!

I'm getting poisoned again looking at your built...hahaha...now thinking of getting one...but struggling with inner self...I gone "green" leh

...plus I got 2k of heatsinks sitting around...

I think toroids need to match with slower rectifiers...cannot recall which is which now...I think the sifus here can help...

by chua55 on Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:56 am

very nice work indeed. are u not putting in a pass Preamp such as B1 to make it pre/power.