Listening Session 19.03.11

Just had a short listening session to work out what is a match for me & my ProAc D80R. Here are a coupel of pics :



Cary 805 50W SET with ARC ref 5 & PC powered ARC DAC 8



CARY 805 + Cary Preamp + AMR CD77



Tubes of Cary 805

Cary 805 + Cary preamp is a winner in my book. So airy & seductive. Drowning in syrup. Mind u, not everyone's cup of tea but I like this. What a revelation.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Great looking system there. May I ask if the beige coloured panels are Real Traps or GIK Acoustics?

They are realtraps

Some questions if you don't mind. Are they Mondo, Mini or Bare traps? If I'm not mistaken there isn't any RealTraps dealer in Malaysia. If I'm guessing correctly, you shipped these from the States?

I bet your system sounds awesome in a treated room. Is the ceiling treated as well?

Congratulations on a ultrafine setup. I especially love those Cary 805. I've heard them perform once at a friends place and they are just as you've described. Airy, seductive and sweet as honey.

Say, how much would a pair of Cary 805 cost in the used market these days?

The ones at the corners are megatraps. Others are mondos. Av designs is the dealer. Had them bring it in. Took 4 months & an arm & a leg

The room is still a work in progress.

Those equipment are mostly not mine. Had my dealer & friends brought theiR stuff over for a little audition. I will likely get a pair of the Carys

Regards,
Joe Ling

Good choice the Carys. Would you know how much they fetch these days?

Hi joe, as you know, I used to run the Cary 805 SET's with my D38's. It was as you describe - syrupy, and so lifelike. But the reason why I moved on from them was because they did not have enough power for the D38's. I was after a more full range experience.

I wanted to keep the amps, so I went for another speaker. Turned out that the new speaker needed even more power, so I sold the amps and got a pair of CAD-211AE's.

I suggest you audition a pair of the Cary 211's. They are different to the 805's - they are better and they are worse in some areas. Where they lack is the magical top end of the 805's - the 805's are simply ethereal and lifelike. But where they gain is a much richer midrange, and simply more oomph. Dynamics feel uncompressed and limitless. And the bass is so much better.

If you end up getting the 805's, the first thing you should do is get rid of the cheap Chinese valves that are supplied by Cary, and get the Shuguang Psvane 845T's! These have more meat and are more neutral sounding than the Chinese Cary valves - those tend to emphasize the high frequencies more.

I would also recommend you get the Western Electric 300B for the 805 if you do get it. Although a Chinese made 300B called TJ is quickly making a name for itself. Some say better than Western Electric if you get the TJ Mesh Anode 300B.

Guys,

Thanks for the advice. It really is like a minefield especially for the uninitiated like myself. I heard the D28 last year at the dealer's & was very impressed. I finally found something that could replace my previous speakers, a DIY single driver type with helper tweeters. So I went for something higher end a few models up in the D80R. Well, I thought some tube with oomph like the ARC would do nicely to drive the ProAcs. They price tag is in the same range etc... How wrong was I not to audition prior to purchase. Well, I did try out the ref110s at my dealer's personal system but thought the higher model would retain a similar character.

Anyway, luckily my dealer is willing to absorb the ref210s at no cost impact to me.

Anyway Wong, do u think a quad of the 805's in a biamp scenario would help with the oomph. One can supposedly dial in the feedback on the low end side of things to tighten the bass, Any chance this can work ?

I am curious about the 211. But I worry because they are push pull & I don't have a chance to listen before I jump. Once bitten twice shy lah. In addition, they are even more pricey than the ref 210s.

bimmerman, I do have a pair of the Full Music 300B laying around somewhere....

Wong, good advice on the 845's. That's the next item on the agenda. BTW, what linestage did u use to pair with the 805's ?

I'm also looking forward to get more aquainted with the AMR CD77. Finally, TDA1541 DAC in my system...

BTW, Vince, also tried the PS Audio garden hose of a power cord on the Carys.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hi Joe, I don't think it would be a good idea to bi-amp with the 805's. Not that I have tried it, but I can tell you that the 805's won't have the bass control that you need. I would suggest you put a solid state amp on the bottom. I was going to try the Cary CAD-200 or CAD-500MB, but those amps apparently do not have enough grip on the bass drivers, which is why I went outside Cary and bought an SGR amp for my bass.

You can try dialling in the NFB, but I found that it does tighten up the bass - but not as much as a SS amp in the bottom. Adding lots of NFB also makes the 805 sound brittle and loses some power.

I still think the CAD-211's would be better for you. If you want to stick with SET, the only high powered SET I have tried which is good enough is the Wavac HE-833, but that is AUD$150k. Too much for me!!

I am using a Cary SLP-05 preamp. It does not sound that fantastic in its standard config, but it is pretty good when you change some of the 6SN7's to your taste. I wanted more dynamics, so I went for the General Electric 6SN7's. If you want a thicker, more romantic sound, get RCA 6SN7's.

Hi Joe, wow you move very fast never thought you would really go for the SET. Nice sound I'm sure.
I think to complete the equation as to make your system an all rounder player in all music genere, the last action IMHO is to add a large sub woofer just directly behind your listening seat. To make integration easier, I would suggest stuffing the rear port of your ProAc so that they don't extend too low. Let the sub do more work to take over the hard part which is reproducing articulate bass.

cheers.

With all due respect to Wikin's opinion, I think stufffing the bass ports of speakers is a last resort action when your speakers produce way too much bass for the room (which I don't think would be a problem in Joe's room considering the amount of acoustic treatment he has). Most of the time, doing that only makes the speaker sound constrained and constipated.

To me, I feel that it would be totally wasting the potential of a large high end speaker like this Proac model by doing such a thing. It's a bit like marrying a supermodel and then asking her to stay at home all the time while you go out with the maid instead.

Joe,

My personal advise is to ditch the ProAc, take back the Audio Reasearch Power Amp and buy Magnepan 20.1 or wait for the 20.2

Maybe even the maggie 3.7

They are a match made in Heaven, maggie uses Audio research for voicing and so does Audio Research with maggies.

New ProAc is not the same as ProAc of yesteryear.
And pls, no stuffing of the bass port. You will be messing up what the engineers are trying to create.

Hi Joe,
So many advices so little time huh.... Since you already took a leap of faith by going the SET direction which is to YOUR liking.... please, do yourself a favour and add that subwoofer and stuff the proac's port. Tune the sub's crossover frequency so that it crosses just right. Well easier said than done in actual but you'll get there...

Guys,
Also please do not take the engineer's design literally when it comes to hi-fi... that would be committing suicide. You might as well goto ProAc's tuning room and follow exactly what amp and what speaker cable and what room dimension it was at that time and not forgetting what voltage and what power conditioner they were using... because once it is out of the equation there is no such thing as 'messing up with what the engineers are trying to create'.
Engineering is all about compromises.

cheers.

For me, I don't think a good pair of speaker needs a sub. Ones u add a sub into ur Hifi system, u also create lot of problem to it.

Cheers,

Hi Joeling,

Congratulations, What a nice looking listening room! And a nice system. Enjoy your exploration and thank you for sharing.

JoKi

noodle88 wrote:For me, I don't think a good pair of speaker needs a sub. Ones u add a sub into ur Hifi system, u also create lot of problem to it.

Cheers,

Exactly....It is already full range. The ports are all precisly calculated..

VS126 wrote:

noodle88 wrote:For me, I don't think a good pair of speaker needs a sub. Ones u add a sub into ur Hifi system, u also create lot of problem to it.

Cheers,

Exactly....It is already full range. The ports are all precisly calculated..

Most definately not in Joe's case... and even this proac is not full range. If it is then this setup or this speaker with some monster Krell for that matter, should reproduce church pipe organs with the feel of low hz way below 20hz till you can't hear it... just feel it. Now that is Full Range.
In Joe's case with the SET's output transformer, it would hit magnetism saturation way before 20hz at full power. This is not full range.


cheers.

Wikin, I would have to agree with you. I did not think the 805's were powerful enough to drive my D38's, so they definitely won't be powerful enough for the D80's. Mind you, for some types of music the 805's were absolutely magical, but some other types of music really showed up their deficiencies. IF Joe listens to that type of music, he would benefit from a more full-range system. In which case he could consider adding a subwoofer to the setup, or bi-amping.

I think there are many advantages to adding a subwoofer. I certainly noticed a few nice benefits when I added mine. In my case, I used an external crossover to remove bass frequencies from the speaker. The amp no longer has to handle anything from 80Hz down, so it had more apparent power. Also, because the woofers weren't flopping around so much, it cleaned up the midbass and lower midrange.

That's what makes this hobby so interesting - there are so many ways to skin a cat I'm not saying my way is the best - it is but ONE way. I think you choose whatever way you like provided the reasoning is sound.

Hi JOeling,
I want to complement you on the really nice equipment and room , probably good enough for a stereophile review !
keep posting more photos as you audition for a suitable amp .
Thanks for sharing your hi fi journey .
kp93300

Thank guys for your comments & suggestions. I am now narrowing down to 2 options.

1) ARC ref 5 or anniv. + ref 110

or

2) Quad 805's + Cary pre

Have to think it over very hard...

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hi Joe,

Do not rush for it. Since you have already choose your speaker, get something to suit it. You shd able to find one that you love. There a few forumer here who are very experience could help you but ultimately is you to decide(money is in your pocket). KLAV is arround the corner. Might as well wait for. Most of time is us who can't wait and dive into it and realise the mistake.
My opinion,overall the best bet would be Solid state amp to suit your speakers.
IMHO, Cary 805 SET will not bring out the full capability of yr speakers.
Curious, how you manage to arrive with Proac without anything in mind for the amp. The person who sell it should have something to suit the Proac, isn't it.

joe, the two options you listed are fundamentally different. You are trying to decide between pentodes and triodes. And not just any triode, it is a single-ended triode.

ARC makes the best pentode amps in the business. Well maybe you could argue that VTL and Manley are also up there. The advantage of the pentode is higher power output, but the disadvantage is that they sound like solid state amps. Some pentode amps have a "Triode/Ultralinear" switch where you can swap operation mode from Pentode to Triode (it does this by switching off a couple of plates) and the sound will noticably change. However - if you were going to leave it in pentode mode - I wonder why bother going through all the trouble and expense to get solid state sound. Why not just get a solid state amp?

Triodes are the most linear amplification devices in the world, period. They are inherently more linear than pentodes (which use a lot of local NFB), and more linear than transistors. Unfortunately - they don't make much power, and all that linearity is meaningless if the amp can be forced into distortion so easily. The output impedance of triodes is typically very high, so you need a very high quality output transformer. THIS is where a lot of money goes.

Ideally, you either choose a speaker that won't stress your triode amp, or you choose a high powered triode amp that won't run into its limits with everyday use. As I and others have said, and I speak from personal experience - the 805's WILL clip with your D80's.

I guess what I am saying (even though you may not want to hear it) is: both your options do not sound ideal. Of the two, the ARC approach is probably better, but if you are going to do that then you may as well save money and get a good solid state amp.

Joe,

Is there any fundamental reasons why you must stick to a valve amp ? At the price level of the ARC Ref210s, there are quite a number of extremely good sounding solid-state amps, very neutral and musical. Just that it doesn't have the sonic signature of valves. It is the music you are really after, right ?

I think ones a person go into valve sound it's hard to ask them go back to Ss amp.

Joe, why don't u play with ur VSE SVP2 preamp and match with the arc amp?

No, noodle you should comment that once you go into awesome sounding SET amps, its hard to turn back...

dixchen wrote:No, noodle you should comment that once you go into awesome sounding SET amps, its hard to turn back...

100% concur with your view. It's when one listen past the music and into the emotions and nuances of the music; only then one will fully appreciate what a good SET system can reproduce.

cheers.

I don't think you guys have heard how good well designed solid state amps can sound. Of course I also agree that SET can sound very good as well. The best of both can be very well matched and in the end, it is mainly preferences and type of music that sets them apart.

The main issue is common folks like us may not have the good fortune to really hear the best set-ups simply because many of their owners are very reserved and do not want to be known.

So I will leave this at that and let Joe decide for himself. I just wanted to give him an opinion.

Speaking for myself, I always hear a kind of irritating harmonics reproduction that is not real when listening to very good hi end solid state/ hybrid amp for that matter. It's either shrieky or just muted. I love my strings and vocals you can tell.

OTOH I would categorize good SET amplifiers as a BITCH. They are so hard to handle and tame. They need to be treated and partnered very meticulously. BUT if you get past the learning curve, then they serve you till orgasm without fail!

cheers.

Hi Joe,

That model looks like the older 805 that uses a 6SL7 instead of a pair of 6SN7. Nevertheless it's a great amplifier. If you are thinking of difficult loads, I have listened to that amp drive a pair of Egglestone Andrea II with joy before and it's so seductive. It would be better of you can get your hands on a full range speakers to make the best of the amp. Just dropped you a PM.

Best wishes.

Joe,

I have both the RCA845 & GE VT4C running and I can conclude that I prefer the VT4C over the 845. Am a bit surprised with the conclusion as it was the reversed with the Shuguang tubes as the 845 sounds much better than the 211. KK, I must have a listen with the Shuguang Psvane.

If you are getting that amp, see if you can get your hands on a WE 300B to substitute the standard Cary item. I assume that that model the older model with a single 6SL7/side, you can try to get your hands on a pair of RCA 6SL7GT (black glass) to balance them out. If you are using the 6SN7 model, steer clear from the Brimars as when I tried the vintage 1950s Brimars, it was bright and thin sounding. The best I have tried so date is the Gre-pin CV181 which results in lush and musical tonals. Simply Magical. The red base RCA 6SN7GT are quite good as well.

Let me know if you want to know more about how different tubes sound with that amplifier.

Best wishes.

WongKK wrote:Hi joe, as you know, I used to run the Cary 805 SET's with my D38's. It was as you describe - syrupy, and so lifelike. But the reason why I moved on from them was because they did not have enough power for the D38's. I was after a more full range experience.

I wanted to keep the amps, so I went for another speaker. Turned out that the new speaker needed even more power, so I sold the amps and got a pair of CAD-211AE's.

I suggest you audition a pair of the Cary 211's. They are different to the 805's - they are better and they are worse in some areas. Where they lack is the magical top end of the 805's - the 805's are simply ethereal and lifelike. But where they gain is a much richer midrange, and simply more oomph. Dynamics feel uncompressed and limitless. And the bass is so much better.

If you end up getting the 805's, the first thing you should do is get rid of the cheap Chinese valves that are supplied by Cary, and get the Shuguang Psvane 845T's! These have more meat and are more neutral sounding than the Chinese Cary valves - those tend to emphasize the high frequencies more.

Wong, are you still using the CAD211 FE?

Best wishes.

Joe,

My opinion is that you should not mix amplification. Work with the room acoustics before exploring the subwoofer and also mixed amplification. The Acoustics works wonders.

Wong is correct to point out that most valve amps won't have the control over woofers to pull it back quickly as the damping factor is quite low. Some SS amps have low damping too. That will bug you if the tonal signature you like to listen to is fast and exciting energy then the SET wil not be your cup to tea. The downside with fast and exciting is that you cannot listen to it for long. On the other end, if you like to listen to lush and airy tones the the SET is your best bet. There is no right sound, it is a personal preference. Listen to your ears and make a decision.

Best wishes.




Best wishes.

Speaking for myself, I always hear a kind of irritating harmonics reproduction that is not real when listening to very good hi end solid state/ hybrid amp for that matter. It's either shrieky or just muted. I love my strings and vocals you can tell.

That is unfortunate. There is a possibility that you may be more sensitive to certain aspects of the solid-state sound signature and more amicable to certain aspects of the valve or SET in your case, sound signature. So it is all a matter of "horses for courses".

So now, back to JoeLing and his search.

brabusm wrote:I have both the RCA845 & GE VT4C running and I can conclude that I prefer the VT4C over the 845. Am a bit surprised with the conclusion as it was the reversed with the Shuguang tubes as the 845 sounds much better than the 211.

Hi brabusm, sorry for the confusion. I agree with you that the CAD-805 sounds better with 845 tubes over 211 tubes. What I meant to say was that the CAD-211 amplifier sounds better than the CAD-805 amplifier in many areas, but not all.

I am running a CAD-211AE amplifier, not the CAD-211FE.

I'll be receiving a pair of Cary 805 sometime in June/July myself. Talking about hybrid, I may have to use my Krell integrated as a pre-amp. Wonder how all that will pan out. I did like my old Cary SLM70/Minima Amator combo before I went all solid state. But I do have a feeling my Signums will like them 805. Lets see...

Fantastic bimmerman. 805AE?

bimmerman wrote:I'll be receiving a pair of Cary 805 sometime in June/July myself. Talking about hybrid, I may have to use my Krell integrated as a pre-amp. Wonder how all that will pan out. I did like my old Cary SLM70/Minima Amator combo before I went all solid state. But I do have a feeling my Signums will like them 805. Lets see...

Missed your feedback.

Yes, witht he stock tubes, the 845s are better than the 211s but with NOS GE 211 and RCA845, the GEs are surprisingly better. Did you try it with the NOS combo?

WongKK wrote:

brabusm wrote:I have both the RCA845 & GE VT4C running and I can conclude that I prefer the VT4C over the 845. Am a bit surprised with the conclusion as it was the reversed with the Shuguang tubes as the 845 sounds much better than the 211.

Hi brabusm, sorry for the confusion. I agree with you that the CAD-805 sounds better with 845 tubes over 211 tubes. What I meant to say was that the CAD-211 amplifier sounds better than the CAD-805 amplifier in many areas, but not all.

I am running a CAD-211AE amplifier, not the CAD-211FE.

Brabusm, I have tried the NOS 845's but they are a bit thick sounding to me. I found I preferred the thinner Chinese valves. Good thing for me, because the RCA 845's were very expensive.

Wong/Joe/Bimmerman,

Coffee tomorrow at Bee Cafe Jaya One at 4pm?

Wikin : Free? Long time no catch up

Yup. The RCAs really made me feel silly at 3x the price of a VT4C after listening to the VT4C. Luckily I manage to sell them a month back.

WongKK wrote:Brabusm, I have tried the NOS 845's but they are a bit thick sounding to me. I found I preferred the thinner Chinese valves. Good thing for me, because the RCA 845's were very expensive.

brabusm wrote:Fantastic bimmerman. 805AE?

Don't know yet bro, I think it's the one with the 6SL7 so non anniversary model I suppose? But it will come with the Western Electric 300B. When I get it set up you can come hear it at my place if you like. With crumpets and tea.

As for tomorrow evening, sorry can't make it, got some prior engagements.

Whao, so many advice & information. Thanks for that.

brabusm, thanks for the invite but unfortunately, I live in Sarawak.

I'm taking both options so that I can switch between them depending on my mood. The SET really struck a chord with me though. Guess I'm more of a warm, airy non accurate sort of an audio person. The Cary reminded me of my old setup which I really liked - an OTL + single driver speaker with helper tweeter. Took me 10 years to find a replacement speaker. My advice to those looking at the Mitsubishi Diatone PM610MB - run away before you are sucked in. U will spend years looking for something that can equal the vocal performance of the Mitsubishi but u have to live with the bass or the lack of in the meantime.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hi Jo,

Do you want a recommendation on a good single driver speaker?

best wishes.

joeling wrote:Whao, so many advice & information. Thanks for that.

brabusm, thanks for the invite but unfortunately, I live in Sarawak.

I'm taking both options so that I can switch between them depending on my mood. The SET really struck a chord with me though. Guess I'm more of a warm, airy non accurate sort of an audio person. The Cary reminded me of my old setup which I really liked - an OTL + single driver speaker with helper tweeter. Took me 10 years to find a replacement speaker. My advice to those looking at the Mitsubishi Diatone PM610MB - run away before you are sucked in. U will spend years looking for something that can equal the vocal performance of the Mitsubishi but u have to live with the bass or the lack of in the meantime.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Just thinking out loud but the Zu Omen seems like a good candidate based on spec. These are 98 dB SPL @ 1 Watt, 1 meter and they go down to 30hz. It's single driver, no crossover and with a helper tweeter that handles 12,000khz upwards to 25,000khz.

I have a friend running a pair with his Cary 300B. Not bad at all. Try to get a 12" driver as it makes a huge difference in the sub bass delivery. Btw, are you fussy about brand? I may have the speaker for you if you let your ears to the listening and it pairs well with the 805.

bimmerman wrote:Just thinking out loud but the Zu Omen seems like a good candidate based on spec. These are 98 dB SPL @ 1 Watt, 1 meter and they go down to 30hz. It's single driver, no crossover and with a helper tweeter that handles 12,000khz upwards to 25,000khz.

Bimmerman, do I know you? Are you Zoggee's friend?

I have lived with a good pair of single driver speakers for the last 10 years. It's a love/hate relationship. Kind of happy/sad that I have moved on mainly because I found an equivalent in the ProAc. Mind u not better but acceptable but more low end. Also moved into a bigger room to boot.

Anyway, I think it is important to b able to listen & compare before one plunges in. Looks like a visit to this year's show would be nice.

Regards,
Joe Ling

old room old setup....