Loudspeakers by Miro

Hello everyone,

perhaps you might find my DIY creations interesting, here is a small fraction of my past 20 years of work:

http://www.loudspeakers-by-miro.com/

For a taste of my current work, please see here:

http://www.soulsonicspeakers.com

Best regards,
Miro

what a fabulous looking speaker! must sounded great too!

Thanks!
Yes they sound great. I love boxless speakers.

Best regards,
Miro

Nice to see OB speakers ! I'm also using OBs.
Are you using passive or active crossover?

I`m using passive crossovers, but of course, there are some pluses going active, at least in the bass.

OB bass is much more natural and relaxed compared to the boxed one, actually, the sound wave propagation is different (sound velocity VS sound pressure) and there is no backwave to influence the cone.
OK, the room becomes the only box

In an ideal world yes I agree with the literature that there are no back waves to influence the overall sound character.

OTOH in my experience tweaking my OBs, there are tonnes of back wave that can influence the sound. OBs will still benefit a great deal from proper speaker placement and room acoustic treatment to sound the best and not to mention active equalization.

I remembered the sound of my OBs changed dramatically after carpetting my sound room. The images literally snaps into focus much better and the localization of instruments got much more distinct.

Then later when I treated the side walls with a combination of absorbtion and diffusion techniques, the soundstage and sound localization improved further.

Dipole peaks are the hardest to cure; they need to be properly equalized and the best way is to use active x-over to cut them off. Otherwise while the sound may be relaxed, there will be some passages in certain music where it will sound like poking the ears due to the dipole peaks.

Lots of work to do my friend. It's not as simple as putting drivers on boxless baffles to claim good sound.

If we are comparing boxes and OB/dipoles, then I`ll have to say that the latter have advantages over the former, but (!) - of course their sound can benefit by proper room acoustic treatment, that`s for sure. But If you insist that boxed and boxless speakers are the same in this regard, then I must disagree.

Also, regarding the active equalisation of the OB systems, well, if you know what it is all about in regard to voicing the speaker (adjusting the crossover properties), then you`ll realise there is no need for active EQ, or at least it is not mandatory, it can be done passively in an elegant way.

With passive XO you attenuate the upper frequencies, with active, you boost the lower frequencies - do you think active approach is fundamentally different from the passive?

Speaking of, so to speak, room alignement of speakers, are you familiar with the following technique:

http://www.audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/008195.html

"" But If you insist that boxed and boxless speakers are the same in this regard, then I must disagree.""

--> Since when did I say this?



""Also, regarding the active equalisation of the OB systems, well, if you know what it is all about in regard to voicing the speaker (adjusting the crossover properties), then you`ll realise there is no need for active EQ, or at least it is not mandatory, it can be done passively in an elegant way.""

--> You were referring to the basic dipole compensation.
--> I was referring more towards the dipole peaks and nulls on a flat baffle. Frequency response of a driver on a flat baffle has got peaks and nulls. It's the peaks that annoys me. Yes you put the drivers off center on the baffle to try and minimize them, but they are still there.



""With passive XO you attenuate the upper frequencies, with active, you boost the lower frequencies - do you think active approach is fundamentally different from the passive?""

--> The results achieved by active crossover compared to passives are big enough to justify the additional complexities. Do you know why?



""Speaking of, so to speak, room alignement of speakers, are you familiar with the following technique:""

--> Too much to read. What's the summary?

The way you speak about OB speakers implies they hardly have any advantages over boxed speakers ("tons of back wave").
I have no idea how your room looks like now or how did it look like before, but for averagely damped rooms, proper speaker placement can make miracles.

Regarding the dipole peaks and nulls on a flat baffle, putting drivers off center on the baffle helps, but also unsymmetrical baffle shape (trapezoidal, for example) and using multiple drivers, but I guess you already knew that.

Passive crossovers are too complex for most people to deal with, especially if they cannot verify what they are doing, but it`s the same with active XOs, if you`re unable to measure - you`re doomed.

If you`ve forgotten why active crossovers bring better results, then check this or many other sites:

http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm

As for your last question, you`ll have to show a little effort in order to discover new things.

I wish you all the best and good luck!

Wikin,

Hope you do not mind telling us what OB speakers you own.

Is it DIY or professionally made?

Thanks

""The way you speak about OB speakers implies they hardly have any advantages over boxed speakers ("tones of back wave"). ""

--> Pls don't misunderstand. If I said that, then I wouldn't be using OBs already. I'm implying that OB create different sets of problems which is also a problem if not tackled properly. Boxed and OBs are not perfect. The thing that I don't favour when reading stuffs in the internet is that many diyers jump onto OBs and claim miracles. That is not true. One cannot just put some drivers onto some fancy baffles without doing due dilligence to the crossover, phase of drivers and peaks/null optimization (dipole peak) to sound excellent. Missing any one of the 3 elements just don't cut it for me. Sorry for being blunt to you.



""If you`ve forgotten why active crossovers bring better results, then check this or many other sites:

http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm

As for your last question, you`ll have to show a little effort in order to discover new things.""


--> I was asking if you understood the advantages of using active crossover which to you seems like it's not needed for excellence in sound. That is not true. As for speaker placement how sure are you that the author is not BSing ?
I prefer reading from this sifu. It covers all the ground from novice to advance.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html


cheers.

VS126 wrote:Wikin,

Hope you do not mind telling us what OB speakers you own.

Is it DIY or professionally made?

Thanks

Home brand. Concept is adopted from the Linkwitz Phoenix speaker.
Actively driven OB 3 way in a 9' x 12' x 20' room.
Per side, there are 2x15" Visaton pro driver in push-pull w-frame for bass, 2x8" B200 Visaton for midrange and Fountek Ribbon Tweeter in D'appolito configuration.

cheers.

Wikin, your observations are correct, but let me just say I`m not in the mood for complete explanations of my 20 years long experiences in building speakers (passive and active).
I can understand you have more time available for arguing about your beliefs than reading an article, but if in my case, you have the feeling I`m a novice in building the speakers, then it`s better for me to shut up.

Perhaps it will be enough, if I say that I don`t favor the Linkwitz approach for good reasons and excuse me if I beg to differ - he is not my sifu.
I have went his route a few times (and heard other people`s systems built after his plans) just to make sure what it is all about, but have no intention to do it again - ever.

And don`t bother to ask me why, rather find out for yourself, try all possible approaches, it will be a much more valuable experince for you, than waiting for someone else`s summary.

Cheers to you too.

""I can understand you have more time available for arguing about your beliefs than reading an article""

--> You have a cunning way of putting words in my mouth. I read technical related hi-fi matters more than you think.



""Perhaps it will be enough, if I say that I don`t favor the Linkwitz approach for good reasons and excuse me if I beg to differ - he is not my sifu.
I have went his route a few times (and heard other people`s systems built after his plans) just to make sure what it is all about, but have no intention to do it again - ever.""

--> I read Linkwitz's site upteen times and he is my sifu when it comes to his wealth of knowledge in his website that helped me understand dipole problems and it has helped me elevate my thinking further. I didn't follow his methods blindly like using opamps for crossover and solid state amplifiers for mids and treble. If you did it blindly that speaks so much about your understanding of euphonics and fine sound.



""And don`t bother to ask me why, rather find out for yourself, try all possible approaches, it will be a much more valuable experince for you, than waiting for someone else`s summary.""

--> I didn't bother to ask you. You only got defensive when I implied that passive crossovers are a huge compromise to OB's performance. With your 20 years of experience building speakers I'm very surprised you cannot get a good grip on active crossovers.

cheers. Nuff said.

I like to discuss various issues and share my experience with other people, but everytime I see a cocky sentence like this:

"Lots of work to do my friend. It's not as simple as putting drivers on boxless baffles to claim good sound."

I get defensive. It seems like you want me to squeeze my entire experience into one sentence - that`s impossible, can you imagine why? Probably not.

That reminds me of another guy, who was accidentally present in the email debates I`ve had with some other designers of planar/dipole speakers. He was just a writer for some audio club, with no technical experience and knew nothing about the topics we were discussing, but he thought we could all benefit by allowing us to be enlightened by Linkwitz` work (who actually contributed some interesting insights to audio in general - kudos to him).
I won`t mention names (let me just say there were some legendary speaker designers involved, who contributed a lot more to the advancements of speaker design than sifu Linkwitz), but as soon as we revealed our arguments as to why Linkwitz approach is merely nice and incapable of any great performance, he immediately become offended and even told Linkwitz how "rude" we were and dared to question his authority! Something like that shows a lack of consciousness, if you ask me.

Well, actually, we didn`t talk bad about the man himself, we just made our arguments against his philosophy which stemmed from our extensive practical experience with not only Linkwitz` approach, but many others as well and that was unacceptable to him - like it is to you.

Speaking of the Linkwitz approach, I know a local Linkwitz warrior who also feels responsible to "fight" everyone who doesn`t agree with this philosophy. Sometimes he get`s really annoying.

I could name many arguments as to why the Linkwitz approach is very limited, but thanks to your trolling, I'll refrain from doing that.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling

And since you mention active crossovers that are so dear to you, they are only the final step, when everything else is already brought to the highest level of refinement. If you`re stuck on the current type of speaker design as you are - everything is pointless, as is pointless this conversation I`m having with you.

Will you calm down if I "admit" you`re the smartest guy around?

This thread is getting dangerously close to name calling and other undesirable things. Just based on an arbitrary decision, as moderator, I shall let Wikin put in his last response and then I will have to ask that everyone please get back to discussing about the speakers only. Barring which I will then be forced to lock up the thread (this is my standard action to prevent things getting ugly).

WongKN,

Absolutely right...please cut through the emotions and be objective. Forummers may choose to disagree over a subject. Nevertheless, courtesy & respect should prevail.


SoulSonic,

Thank you for posting here, from another part of the world. I've just been to your site and noticed that you have showcased 4 projects. Since you have positioned them as DIY creations, will you be posting some schematics and build techniques on your site too?

Thanks,

Hello Hi-Fi 4 Sale (?),

thank you for accepting me to your forum.
As for my projects, some schematics can be found at my own Slovenian forum, but if anyone is interested in details, they are welcome to contact me directly, all the information will be provided for free and I dare to say it will be quite valuable info.

http://www.audiodiy.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12

http://www.audiodiy.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13

http://www.audiodiy.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14

many others are here:

http://www.audiodiy.org/viewforum.php?f=9

Since I`m now involved with my new commercial projects, the old DIY site probably won`t be updated anymore, but as already mentioned I can help, if anyone would like to re-build one of my projects.

Best regards,
Miro

Hello Miro,

Welcome to this site.

I think your OB Designs (from the looks of it and awards) and thru comments in 6 moons and Dagogo etc are fantastic.

I wld love to hear it one day esp yr glass OB tower.

Yr work and willingness to share with HIFI DIYERs are commendable.

I also wld like to apologise for the bad reception you got fr fellow forummer here. I akin it to like telling Dan D' Agustino(ex Krell) or Jurgen Reis(MBL), Charles Hanson(Ayre) and other upcoming audio designer that their design is flawed without having a chance to listen to them.

This post interest me as I love open speakers and have dabble with and owned boxless like the BIG Maggies, Martin Logan, MBL's and DIY OB from Audio Nirvana etc. One of my friend owns the Linkwitz but I do not like it. Maybe it is personal taste. I am sure the Linkwitz is good too. But too many variables.

Anyway, Cheers and welcome again.

((BELOW IS IN RESPOND TO WIKIN, BUT SOMEHOW THE POST IS GONE))


Hey,

Everyone got their inspirations from earlier designs. We take the good and throw away the bad. That is how we grow.

Look at the Japanese, Koreans, etc.....

Only Proton copies but cannot grow. HaHa

I do not know what is yr beef against soulsonic (not that I care) but if you can make a better speaker, my hats off to you. If you have not heard Soulsonic's creations before, what is all the barking about???

Perhaps we can audition yr very own (Malaysia Boleh) creation in the very near future (hopefully not ideas from Linkwitz) and see how learned or gifted you are.

Ideas and actual creations are totally different.

Cheers

Hello VS126,

thank you for your kind words, I`m quite positive some day you`ll be able to hear my speakers, because I`m working on it.

As for the bad reception - it happens, in my case,probably because when people see an elegant design, they tend to think it`s just a cover up for bad performance, well, each one is entitled to have his own prejudices, but I hope there are more members that want me to speak then there are the ones that want me to shut up.

The speakers you owned are also my cup of tea, one thing they have in common, is their effective surface area for higher frequencies is much larger than with a typical dome or small ribbon and this has a tremendous effect on music reproduction quality.

When designing my last projects, I have had my role models and was influenced by historic designs, but to say they are just copies, would be like saying every car made today is a copy of Ford T model.

The first ribbon, for instance, was invented by Schottky and Gerlach in 1924, not some high end company of nowadays and this invention was an inspiration for all planar magnetic, ribbon and air motion transformer designs of today:

http://www.vias.org/encyclopedia/bio_schottky.html

And although I was inspired by many great designs of the past, none of them was included in the deleted post.

Best regards,

Miro

[test]

Somehow my post also went missing this afternoon.


Anyways I lost my momentum trying to argue with Soulsonic.

Dear Soulsonic, by all means claim whatever design that's recyclable from the internet (i can't attach pics at the moment) but I don't see any originality from yours.



Dear VS126, I'm currently outstation but will be back home by tomorrow afternoon (Tuesday). If you're free tomorrow (tuesday) night or Wednesday morning-afternoon do PM me for my contact and address.

cheers

Thank you for your opinion, Wikin.

You are welcome.

and my designs are copies of the above?

As I said I don't see any originality.
Whatever that makes you happy lah...

cheers.

Wikin wrote:


Dear VS126, I'm currently outstation but will be back home by tomorrow afternoon (Tuesday). If you're free tomorrow (tuesday) night or Wednesday morning-afternoon do PM me for my contact and address.

cheers

Wikin

Thank you for yr invitation. I am sure yr setup is fantastic.


Hopefully one day when I hv time, I hope to be flattered by yr setup, and also
Mira's latest creation - the glass OB.

For now...Cheers and be nice

Sorry, I think there was some misunderstanding. On my DIY site there are some speaker projects that were strongly influenced by some commercial or non commercial projects, of course. But since they were only meant as an excercise in getting some experience and not for sale, I don`t understand why I was brought to the court?
My apologies in any case.

All that being said, I guess SoulSonic speakers were not under siege?

OK, whatever...

SoulSonic wrote:Sorry, I think there was some misunderstanding. On my DIY site there are some speaker projects that were strongly influenced by some commercial or non commercial projects, of course. But since they were only meant as an excercise in getting some experience and not for sale, I don`t understand why I was brought to the court?
My apologies in any case.

All that being said, I guess SoulSonic speakers were not under siege?

OK, whatever...

SoulSonic,

Definitely not under siege. It takes courage, determination, talent, effort & time to make things happen. What better than sharing it with others. There will always be an audience who will appreciate a sincere effort, nevermind the detractors.

Really, you should be applauded for your work, for who cares about the amount of external inspiration, as long as you are getting good results and not presenting them as near-identical knockoffs? Somewhere in our sub-conscience, we believe the world will benefit from one more good-sounding speaker.

This DIY projects forum was created primarily to share ideas, with the hope that the good ones will be replicated, improvised and brought to fruition by other members. Probably what's missing is the schematics and process of building these speakers. Your choice to share, but that would truly be enlightening.

Lastly, we wish you commercial success and hope to see some of your products someday, as this would mean you can continue contributing to this hobby.

Well, thanks!
I will post the schematics, but give me some time as the storm is approaching here, need to turn of the PC.
One more thing, I never do the woodwork (except for prototypes), but I do draw the sketches/plans.

SoulSonic wrote:I will post the schematics, but give me some time as the storm is approaching here, need to turn of the PC.

Better do it quickly. Yesterday storm over here took out 6 of the TVS diodes in my power conditioner.

Hi all,

for the tall OB speaker with six woofers per channel (photo in the first post), here are the specs:

Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter

http://www.fountek.net/products.asp?id=44

Dayton Audio RS52AN-8 2" Reference Dome Midrange (wired in parallel)

http://www.daytonaudio.com/lspeakers/reference_rs52an-8.html

Dayton Audio RS150-4 6" Reference Woofer (wired in series)

http://www.daytonaudio.com/lspeakers/reference_rs150-4.html

Unfortunately I don`t know the brand of the six 12" woofers (no name production), but I have measured its TS parameters:

Sd: 530.00 cm^2
Vas: 137.38 l
Cms: 3.49e-04 m/N
Cas: 9.81e-07 m^5/N
Mmd: 49.99 g
Mms: 56.70 g
Rms: 1.25 Ns/m
Fs: 35.7 Hz
Bl: 10.12 N/A
Re: 7.00 ohm
Le: 1.50 mH
Qms: 10.20
Qes: 0.87
Qts: 0.80

Hope that helps.

Another one, 3way OB speaker with the following drivers:

Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter

http://www.fountek.net/products.asp?id=44

Peerless 832873 HDS 5-1/4" MidWoofer

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-126

Two Peerless SLS 315 woofers:

http://www.europe-audio.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=4296

If I would do this project again, I would surely use some dipolar planar magnetic tweeter like this one:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-730

or some air motion transformer (AMT), like these:

http://www.hg-audio.com.tw/product_air_tweeter.html

it would mantain its dipole characteristics throughout the whole spectrum.

From my forum:

http://www.audiodiy.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13