"High Power Corrupts!" Do you agree ?

if the first watt sounds bad, why do I want 200 watts more of the same!
I have to admit to the fact that "the best sounding audio amplifiers are low-powered"

Oh, I'd like to see where this goes!

In my experience, I've heard a high-sensitivity speaker sound great with a low-powered amp but less musical with a high-powered amp.

Conversely, I've also heard a low-sensitivity speaker smoke a low-powered amp and make great music with a high-powered amp.

If the first-watt itself is great, why not 500 more ...?

If the first watt is bad, it won't matter if it is low powered or high powered.
On the other hand, if the first watt is great it won't matter either.
But what matters most is the sensitivity of the speakers.
The amplifier must have enough juice to drive the speakers.

But it doesn't hurt to have ample wattage in reserves.
It's a matter how much one can afford to splash on his/her equipment.

Basically, both amplifier and speakers must be compatible. The rest is up to ones' ears and cash reserves.

sph wrote:If the first watt is bad, it won't matter if it is low powered or high powered.
On the other hand, if the first watt is great it won't matter either.
But what matters most is the sensitivity of the speakers.
The amplifier must have enough juice to drive the speakers.

But it doesn't hurt to have ample wattage in reserves.
It's a matter how much one can afford to splash on his/her equipment.

Basically, both amplifier and speakers must be compatible. The rest is up to ones' ears and cash reserves.

IMO, they all matter. Think of the hi-fi playback chain as a accumulation of colourations and distortions. This is also why the analogy that "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" doesn't quite hold true in audio reproduction systems, but its far more critical instead due to the "culmulative effects" of just about every darn thing in the whole value chain.

Some famous dude in the audio industry said that he'd "rather have a cup of tone than an ocean of power". But since the whole rationale behind the evolution of the human race (hi-fi included) is about pushing the boundaries, why not strive for "an ocean of tone" instead ?

Synergy is key!

Synergy or Musicality ?

Synergy is the key to unlock the door to musicality.

I thought political debate here!

Bassraptor has made very pertinent observations about low-sensitivity speakers sounding great with high-powered amps and high-sensitivity speakers sounding better with low-powered amps.
Perhaps this bit of info from Bryston's website would help explain things:
"A significant part of the design criteria for the 28B SST 2 (1,000 watters) was to develop a very powerful amplifier that would drive any speaker on the planet but maintain an ideal power curve at 1 watt as well as at 1000 watts and every power level in between. Most amplifiers exhibit a power curve whereby the best noise floor, drive capability and distortion is maintained from about 1/3 power and up."
If this is true, then high-powered amps don't perform at optimum specs when pushing sensitive speakers which explains what bassraptor has noted from his experience.

I think it depends on what the amps are. A pair of Krell KAS that was originall purchased to drive Thiel CS7s worked even better with the Wilson X1 Grand-Slamms. With the CS7s, even the KAS had to go into 'extended' mode on demanding music. With the X1 Grand Slamms, the KAS never ever goes out of the 2nd bias mode (there are 4 bias mode plus the extended mode in the KAS sustained plateau biasing circuit).

Morale of the story: Get lots and lots of (amplifier) power, and make sure its "good" power. Not the rubbish-kind from half-hack brands or even some DIY frankensteins with coarse & unmatched Pasar-Road components.

Does that mean u guys look into the inside of the amp before u even listen to make judgements? And no need to go further to listen if the brand doesn't rings a bell( like Gucci is to handbag)? Interesting! Interesting!!!!

uncle_vic wrote:Does that mean u guys look into the inside of the amp before u even listen to make judgements? And no need to go further to listen if the brand doesn't rings a bell( like Gucci is to handbag)? Interesting! Interesting!!!!

Thats not the point. OK lets use Gucci as an example then.
Would a home-made handbag have the same finishing and material quality akin to a Gucci handbag ? And if it did , how much would it cost to make such a bag instead?

Gucci would buy Grade AAAA+++ (or however they classify it) leather in bulk, cut it down to size, and get some it nicely sewn together (at some crackerjack sweatshop that perhaps employs child labour but thats besides the point). And attach on 24K plated studs and chains and stuff to it.

Would a DIY'er be able to do the same ? As in source for AAAA+++ leather, get the 24K plated studs, on par ? (and keep costs within sane levels).
Ok ,maybe the cost part is definitely do-able for fashion items (like Gucci vs. the China grade-A knockoffs), coz they (ie Gucci) have ridiculous markups. But for hi-fi equipment? it would be a hard act to do.

Adding on further, hi-fi components are a "heavily manufactured" product. One can only do so much with the workbench at home (at least in MY).
Don't get me wrong here, I am a great supporter of home-style hifi gear. How many of u guys out there still remember or actually have heard of local boy Frankie Voon's (go Google, featured in the Star sometime in 1998 or 1999 Audiofile section) rare "Frank Acoustics" PiPit phono stage ? Now in its latest Pipit 3 & PiPit Reference incarnartion.

We also have great local brands like Promithius Audio & that passive-Preamp thats made it to USA Stereophile's class-B list.

But lets just say, I don't expect mr. Frank Voon here to come up with a 5+digit phono stage anytime soon with Jaw Dropping performance to take on the world, in a homestyle environment. Maybe he could custom build a unit just for you, but you'd have to wait like a year+ and then some for it to be completed.


Sure, some local entrepreneur could start an outfit making amps, SACD players , with CNC facilities, bulk purchasing power for raw components, etc etc and the whole she-bang ... but this doesn't really play in the league of the "DIY'er" anymore, does it ?

uncle_vic makes an interesting point

mugenfoo wrote:

uncle_vic wrote:Does that mean u guys look into the inside of the amp before u even listen to make judgements? And no need to go further to listen if the brand doesn't rings a bell( like Gucci is to handbag)? Interesting! Interesting!!!!

Thats not the point. OK lets use Gucci as an example then.
Would a home-made handbag have the same finishing and material quality akin to a Gucci handbag ? And if it did , how much would it cost to make such a bag instead?

Gucci would buy Grade AAAA+++ (or however they classify it) leather in bulk, cut it down to size, and get some it nicely sewn together (at some crackerjack sweatshop that perhaps employs child labour but thats besides the point). And attach on 24K plated studs and chains and stuff to it.

Would a DIY'er be able to do the same ? As in source for AAAA+++ leather, get the 24K plated studs, on par ? (and keep costs within sane levels).
Ok ,maybe the cost part is definitely do-able for fashion items (like Gucci vs. the China grade-A knockoffs), coz they (ie Gucci) have ridiculous markups. But for hi-fi equipment? it would be a hard act to do.

I wonder how the issue of looking inside the amplifer came in. The only way to judge a component's worthiness is from listening and even then, the judgenment can only be made according to how well it suits the listener, not another person.

If the piece of equipment not only sounded good to the perception of 1 individual, or its owner, but generally most visitors find it not only very listenable, comfortable with the sound, and would consider as good sounding to many, then the statistics show a skewness to that of a likeable nature and people don't mind owning one such system, provided they could foot the asking price! That's not only to cater for just 1 individual............others just happen to enjoy a listening session tool! Manufactured hifi or diyed hifi(alternative hifi as it could be called) is besides the point.

If it's the sound we sought after so badly............ .......why are we also very particular about the parts inside........there must be a very good reason for this la.....no doubt.....is it about reliability? is it about 'face saving'? is it about other personal reasons?

What if designer A don't endorsed designer B's idea, philosophy and products and the vice versa happens, then chaos among consumers!

You are right, uncle_vic, I'm 100% agreed with all your opinions.

bassraptor wrote:Oh, I'd like to see where this goes!

In my experience, I've heard a high-sensitivity speaker sound great with a low-powered amp but less musical with a high-powered amp.

Conversely, I've also heard a low-sensitivity speaker smoke a low-powered amp and make great music with a high-powered amp.

If the first-watt itself is great, why not 500 more ...?

Agreed with you statements here. Played backloaded horns before with 2a3 amp, awesome for midrange (ie.vocals) dominated music but fall short for everything else. Please leave Avantgard hybrid horns outta the topics please !!

Now using push pull at near 100 watts, 2a3 will not be missed....

uncle_vic wrote:
If it's the sound we sought after so badly............ .......why are we also very particular about the parts inside........there must be a very good reason for this la.....no doubt.....is it about reliability? is it about 'face saving'? is it about other personal reasons?

Totally missed the point here. Good engineering is built almost always with good "raw materials", and a great design fundamental. While any good design fundamental would be pretty much intellect driven and may be obtained without much monetary encumberance, unfortunately good "raw materials" tend to cost more than the usual common stuff.

The point being made is on whats needed for a Great sounding amp (ok, it subjective... but hypothetically speaking for now) would be both great design and great "raw materials".


As with just about any manufactured product, the price tag for a particular brand would contain more "brand equity" value than others within the same functionality / capability class. Example: a Sunfire amp vs. a Cello amp.

But when it comes to economies of scale, a bench DIY'er is at a big disadvantage versus a big "evil empire" like say, the Harman Intl. Ind. group (Harman-Kardon, Mark Levinson, JBL, Infinity, AKG, Lexicon, Studer, etc etc).

The only example of "Awesome Engineering" with Crap-ass materials i can
think of is the Russian T-34. But then again, a T-34 ain't quite hi-fi now and built for a totally different purpose in mind, right ?

Yes, its a capitalist world, and one can't avoid but be a consumer whore sometimes.



On a side note, a couple of years back there was a local initiative by a group of hifi retailers and DIY'ers to make some pretty decent Turntables in an effort to bring affordability back to the otherwise "CompactDisc" generation of audiophiles. It sustained for a while (maybe 1~2 odd years?) until some big brand turntable manufacturer started to make "affordable high performance" Turntables. Needless to say, the locally produced Turntable was quickly relegated to the annals of local hifi history.

if high power corrupts than why the caps are getting bigger & better?

I have in mind.........perceptions of enjoyable music is to good sounding systems.........different hifi journey in life for a typical audiophile. At different stages in a hifi journey, the preferences for amps and speakers, may be very different. Musicality could be derived from a mini compo, later perhaps a bigger 1 brand systems are more preferred and after a while maybe could prefer the hifi separates, and with more money the more exotic equipments.


How listenable the music will depends on the individual and at what stage in one's hifi journey, so is preferences and the question of choices. Newbies will not come to the questions of 'absolute standards' in judging hifi sound reproductions, only the much learned one will, and will sometimes find himself at odds with the rest, as very few people may understand what he is trying to say, or even attempt to try to understand what he is trying to say.


Different persons listening to a same setups will have plenty of diversed views to offer, and even plenty of contradictions as regards the music/sound reproduction! I see little to argue, if one thinks a system sucks and I don't, I will just let it rest.

Hi Azri, not only bigger caps, but multiple caps too! Actually a whole bank of them!!!!!

Dollar for dollar or RM for RM, an item from local bench DIYer will contain much better parts than the big boys. Read advertisement, markups, overhead expenses etc. Oh ya don't forget profit too.

Case in point, bought a Bel Canto Pre 3 for RM7.5k recently. Opened up the inside & what do I see, cheap cheap LM317/337 regulators ! How about that. While I did not scrutinise the circuit, I sure hope that they have put in some engineering in there. Also sent a 120V unit labeled as 240V. My Local hifi dealer was scrathing his head when the slo blow fuse kept blowing.

I bet wabun can make some magic linestage with that amount of money ya

Actually, there a at least 2 schools of thoughts when it came to audio design. Some say u have to use the super good, over spec, boutique parts to make something sound good. Others say it's the design stupid. Use adequate parts that meets the design criteria & spec. So which school are u ?

U open up casing from a lot of hifi manufactureres you'll be surprised & disgusted what they are selling for.

Actually, cannot generalise amps as either high power or low powered. There are many facets to this that begs to be defined. SS & tubes for example behave quite differently. SET or push pull or some other topology ?

Too difficult to generalise lah. Also, many people have different biases myself included .

mugenfoo wrote:

uncle_vic wrote:
If it's the sound we sought after so badly............ .......why are we also very particular about the parts inside........there must be a very good reason for this la.....no doubt.....is it about reliability? is it about 'face saving'? is it about other personal reasons?

Totally missed the point here. Good engineering is built almost always with good "raw materials", and a great design fundamental. While any good design fundamental would be pretty much intellect driven and may be obtained without much monetary encumberance, unfortunately good "raw materials" tend to cost more than the usual common stuff.

The point being made is on whats needed for a Great sounding amp (ok, it subjective... but hypothetically speaking for now) would be both great design and great "raw materials".


As with just about any manufactured product, the price tag for a particular brand would contain more "brand equity" value than others within the same functionality / capability class. Example: a Sunfire amp vs. a Cello amp.

But when it comes to economies of scale, a bench DIY'er is at a big disadvantage versus a big "evil empire" like say, the Harman Intl. Ind. group (Harman-Kardon, Mark Levinson, JBL, Infinity, AKG, Lexicon, Studer, etc etc).

The only example of "Awesome Engineering" with Crap-ass materials i can
think of is the Russian T-34. But then again, a T-34 ain't quite hi-fi now and built for a totally different purpose in mind, right ?

Yes, its a capitalist world, and one can't avoid but be a consumer whore sometimes.



On a side note, a couple of years back there was a local initiative by a group of hifi retailers and DIY'ers to make some pretty decent Turntables in an effort to bring affordability back to the otherwise "CompactDisc" generation of audiophiles. It sustained for a while (maybe 1~2 odd years?) until some big brand turntable manufacturer started to make "affordable high performance" Turntables. Needless to say, the locally produced Turntable was quickly relegated to the annals of local hifi history.

Regards,
Joe Ling

joeling wrote:
U open up casing from a lot of hifi manufactureres you'll be surprised & disgusted what they are selling for.

Ahh.. so there are some who really do open up and "see" whats inside that fancy box eh?


That being said ... Yes, there are brands that u can really see CHEAP-ASS components inside, and there are some that you could find real gems inside. Works both ways. Example, the present day Goldmund DVD player. Pretty much just a re-badged Pioneer incl the hackjob for the remote control.

But for some (and i just say some) mfgs that take great strides in both design engineering and quality materials, here is where the DIY benchers lose out. This is the simple point being stressed.

Anyone ever taken a peek inside a dCS Puccini, Scarlatti or even a Meridian ?
And don't even for one second ignore the Proprietary DSP chipsets one is sure to find inside.

If you'd have taken a peek inside a 10+ year old Wadia or Theta Transport (and they also use OEM transports from Teac, Philips, Sony, etc etc but here is where the similarity stops) and after having bore witness to its build quality , and STILL think that mr. part-time DIY can ace this at the same price point? ...Happy for you !

You can never have too much power, that said my 75 watter pushes my Harbeths just fine and dandy.

Well, the dealer was blowing fuse so he opened up the case & I helped to troubleshoot for him pointing out that perhaps the 120V jumper shown in large letters could be the problem even though the outside casing indicated that it was a 240V unit.

Well, u are right that highend digital is hard to emulate by a DIY dude. On the other hand, u can always go the NOS route for redbook.

As for Theta, . Bought a second hand Theta Pearl dedicated transport about 8-9 years ago thinking that I've finally arrived at highend (replacing a heavily modded Marantz 63Ki with a trichord clock etc.) I was not impressed. Opened up the unit & transplanted the trichord & it improved an order of magnitude. However, that was not the bit that pissed me off. The Theta unit had an empty slot for an upgrade to AES/EBU out. U can send the unit back to the factory & they charge a few hundred USD for this upgrade. Well, guess what ? The only thing that needed to be done was to add a socket & solder 3 connections to existing pads already on the circuit board. Well, did it myself for the cost of the connector . Daylight robbery if u think about it. How many unsuspecting consumers bought into that not knowing that they were being fleeced ? The pioneer stable platter mechanism is very nice though.

Hang on, I thought we're talking amplifiers ?

Not all watts are created equal. Some are more equal than others

Have a look at this amp :



It's an 80W OTL that cost about RM10k in parts 5 years ago. It has boutique parts all over. The equivalent item was also commercially available in those days for about USD4K but with common parts. The manufacturer was selling factory direct so a lot of middlemen & costs associated with that has been eliminated. This was stereophile class a or something during its day in the sun then. Good value ya ?

mugenfoo wrote:

joeling wrote:
U open up casing from a lot of hifi manufactureres you'll be surprised & disgusted what they are selling for.

Ahh.. so there are some who really do open up and "see" whats inside that fancy box eh?


That being said ... Yes, there are brands that u can really see CHEAP-ASS components inside, and there are some that you could find real gems inside. Works both ways. Example, the present day Goldmund DVD player. Pretty much just a re-badged Pioneer incl the hackjob for the remote control.

But for some (and i just say some) mfgs that take great strides in both design engineering and quality materials, here is where the DIY benchers lose out. This is the simple point being stressed.

Anyone ever taken a peek inside a dCS Puccini, Scarlatti or even a Meridian ?
And don't even for one second ignore the Proprietary DSP chipsets one is sure to find inside.

If you'd have taken a peek inside a 10+ year old Wadia or Theta Transport (and they also use OEM transports from Teac, Philips, Sony, etc etc but here is where the similarity stops) and after having bore witness to its build quality , and STILL think that mr. part-time DIY can ace this at the same price point? ...Happy for you !

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hey, issit just my browser, or is anyone also seeing this funny photobucket "upgrade today" banner and some missing headers / footers today ?

joeling wrote:
As for Theta, . Bought a second hand Theta Pearl dedicated transport about 8-9 years ago thinking that I've finally arrived at highend (replacing a heavily modded Marantz 63Ki with a trichord clock etc.) I was not impressed.

Sorry dude, in my books a Theta Pearl ain't even near high-end ... but i guess its relative. Yeah ok that AES/EBU connector is A REAL hackjob ripoff. Same can be said for Goldmund (aka rebadged-Pioneer + some PSU upgrade that ANY DIY'er could have done themselves) and their present day DVD player. But i would think these are in the minority category.

One bad apple spoils the whole bunch?


BTW, u still using that Theta PEARL? Just curious.

And are the webppages slightly messed up today ?

Yes.. Webpage slightly messed up today with those funny photobucket thingy..
Anyway, I still managed to read what you guys wrote in this thread.

Hope mugen & myself have been entertaining . Mugen let's carry on...

car o scope wrote:Yes.. Webpage slightly messed up today with those funny photobucket thingy..
Anyway, I still managed to read what you guys wrote in this thread.

Ya, the webpage seems to be acting funny. I'm already on pro but why asking me to upgrade ? Pay & still cannot get decent service aiyah.

U are right, the Pearl was not a Pearl. Had to do some frankenstein to make it acceptable.

Anyway, this is the perfect excuse for a little ego trip. Just took these yesterday & wondering where to post them :









The Pearl is still my CD transport but I haven't used it for a few months. My transport nowdays is a PC -fanless mind u

Anyway, back to them watts, with my current speakers paired with the OTL gave me the goose bumps.

In recent times (this year) I'm starting to sell out & bought a pair of Bel Canto 1000W ICE amp. Yeah that's right 1000 of 'em. Inserted into my system but oh dear no magic. Will pair it with a pair of D28 to test out once my dealer gets his act together.

mugenfoo wrote:

joeling wrote:
As for Theta, . Bought a second hand Theta Pearl dedicated transport about 8-9 years ago thinking that I've finally arrived at highend (replacing a heavily modded Marantz 63Ki with a trichord clock etc.) I was not impressed.

Sorry dude, in my books a Theta Pearl ain't even near high-end ... but i guess its relative. Yeah ok that AES/EBU connector is A REAL hackjob ripoff. Same can be said for Goldmund (aka rebadged-Pioneer + some PSU upgrade that ANY DIY'er could have done themselves) and their present day DVD player. But i would think these are in the minority category.

One bad apple spoils the whole bunch?


BTW, u still using that Theta PEARL? Just curious.

And are the webppages slightly messed up today ?

Sorry guys,
I think many of the icons or thumbnails are linked to Photobucket. Working on it...

Wow @joeling ... that room looks more like a padded cell for looney whackos !!

That ain't your main listening room issit?
Mebbe this is the hi-fi Store room + some listening space perhaps?
Just kidding.


But thanks for sharing. Photos are always very entertaining.

Yeah, it does resemble a store room alright. What to do, have to make do with limited space .

mugenfoo wrote:Wow @joeling ... that room looks more like a padded cell for looney whackos !!

That ain't your main listening room issit?
Mebbe this is the hi-fi Store room + some listening space perhaps?
Just kidding.


But thanks for sharing. Photos are always very entertaining.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hey, those thick wadding at the corners look interesting ... What material are they? where can get them ?

Who gives a shit about how neat or nice the room looks. As long as the system sounds good to the ears.

Yes, who gives a shit about how neat or nice the room looks, as long as the system sounds good to the ears.....although someone does.

Exactly ... who cares if they're gonna be dining within 2 feet of a latrine filled to the rim with rancid feces, as long that person is enjoying the best steak (or replace with your own favourite food) in town !


.... right ?

Believe it or not, those are polyester batting used to make quilts or blankets. The same good stuff can be found inside my speakers. They can be found in most textile or DIY quilt making stores.Has been hanging there since I moved in 10 years ago.

Before u ask about the nice side wall decorations, those sound 'diffusers' with F1 colour scheme are egg crates meticulously spray painted by myself proud self. Incredibly, they do make a difference to the focus .

mugenfoo wrote:Hey, those thick wadding at the corners look interesting ... What material are they? where can get them ?

Regards,
Joe Ling

Oh yeah, keep it coming...

mugenfoo wrote:Exactly ... who cares if they're gonna be dining within 2 feet of a latrine filled to the rim with rancid feces, as long that person is enjoying the best steak (or replace with your own favourite food) in town !


.... right ?

joeling wrote:Oh yeah, keep it coming...

not relating to you here. Its to other person's point that "the ends justify the means" or. Or in this case, the ends ignore the means as long as the end result is attained.

Which is correct ? I dunno.. maybe its all in the beholders eyes / ears.

Don't worry, I know I'm a messy person. Just look at my office & u will know. Please don't tell my wife though .

Anyway, back to the watts.

How about a discussion on the merits of low powered SET, high powered solid state class A or class AB & the magic of OTL which cannot double its output with halving of speaker impedance.

What's everyone's take here? Hope this at least is remotely close to bringing the thread back to the relevant topic

mugenfoo wrote:

joeling wrote:Oh yeah, keep it coming...

not relating to you here. Its to @wongkn's point that "the ends justify the means" or. Or in this case, the ends ignore the means as long as the end result is attained.

Which is correct ? I dunno.. maybe its all in the beholders eyes / ears.

Regards,
Joe Ling

joeling wrote:
How about a discussion on the merits of low powered SET, high powered solid state class A or class AB & the magic of OTL which cannot double its output with halving of speaker impedance.

What's everyone's take here? Hope this at least is remotely close to bringing the thread back to the relevant topic

Regards,
Joe Ling

Opps... then some people may say here that "who gives a sh!t whether its SET or SS Class-A , Class-AB, OTL, blah blah blah as long as it sounds good? " .

Wah, so vindictive leh

mugenfoo wrote:

joeling wrote:
How about a discussion on the merits of low powered SET, high powered solid state class A or class AB & the magic of OTL which cannot double its output with halving of speaker impedance.

What's everyone's take here? Hope this at least is remotely close to bringing the thread back to the relevant topic

Regards,
Joe Ling

Opps... then some people may say here that "who gives a sh!t whether its SET or SS Class-A , Class-AB, OTL, blah blah blah as long as it sounds good? " .

joeling wrote:Wah, so vindictive leh

Nope, just re-using or recycling a point made earlier. And it wasn't even mine to begin with.

mugenfoo wrote:

uncle_vic wrote:Does that mean u guys look into the inside of the amp before u even listen to make judgements? And no need to go further to listen if the brand doesn't rings a bell( like Gucci is to handbag)? Interesting! Interesting!!!!

Thats not the point. OK lets use Gucci as an example then.
Would a home-made handbag have the same finishing and material quality akin to a Gucci handbag ? And if it did , how much would it cost to make such a bag instead?

Gucci would buy Grade AAAA+++ (or however they classify it) leather in bulk, cut it down to size, and get some it nicely sewn together (at some crackerjack sweatshop that perhaps employs child labour but thats besides the point). And attach on 24K plated studs and chains and stuff to it.

Would a DIY'er be able to do the same ? As in source for AAAA+++ leather, get the 24K plated studs, on par ? (and keep costs within sane levels).
Ok ,maybe the cost part is definitely do-able for fashion items (like Gucci vs. the China grade-A knockoffs), coz they (ie Gucci) have ridiculous markups. But for hi-fi equipment? it would be a hard act to do.

Gucci also handmade lah...........................

we are listen with ear not eye. so why bother so much about specification and paper facts ? what class , what less , what zero feedback ..etc most important thing is it just sound right. try draw a turtle shape of badminton court size then draw the same turtle in a size of drawing paper. which one more refine ? which one will have more easy control the stroke ? thats the same thing over here.
how struggle the component need to be to manage the 200W power ? when compare to a merely 2Watter ?

the mind boggles ...