New room set up - ProAc D18 saga continues

The fun has started. I have moved into my previous own house. As mentioned in the original ProAc thread, I have set up the hifi using Rule of Fifths by Usher for the moment. Measurements as below:

A - distance between speakers - 5'9"
B - distance of speaker from side wall - 2'1"
C - distance of speaker from rear wall - 1'9"
D - distance between listening position to speaker - 8'3"
E - distance between listening position to rear wall - 7'

I have experimented with various A, B and C. Cant do much with D and E as there are other stuff to set up.

With the current set up, bass is not overwhelmed. However, increasing A seems to have better stereo imaging but bass can be bloated.

Will take pics once tidied up the room

Spent the weekend listening to various type of music with the above set up. I feel that the Rules of Fifth is not doing justice to my set up, particularly on the low end reproduction.

I will have spend another week on this arrangement before start to move the speakers again.

Pictures below. The room is not fully cleared up. The mirror on the left side and the bags and boxes beside the sofa will be moved soon.

To me the C distance seems a bit too near to the back wall. Since your room still got plenty space, have your try to increase the C to 2.5'-3'??

Besides B&C seems to close, it may create resonance on low frequency.

As such you may experience booming, futhermore your corner is blank, resonance even higher.

nice setup...especially your new speaker...geram ngan speaker tu...

wah nice. judging from the pic, this is what i'd do: here's my 2 kupang

1) racks a bit too high, might interfere with imaging. can split the racks into 2-tiers and place 4pcs of 2-tier racks front and back?

2) speakers need to be further away from the rear wall. there's a lot of action going on behind speakers. speakers are 360degree radiating units. plus, we want lars ulrich, phil collins and jim keltner to have more "seating" space. hehe.

3) see if you can pull the speakers further apart to max out the soundstage without loosing too much focus. can experiment with a bit of toe-in to make up for the focus.

4) left speaker's reinforced by the untreated wall. is it louder on the left side? or does the centre vocal tend to skew towards the left? i'm a noob with treatments. hmm... maybe as a temp solution stick a standing bolster there? (i think someone's gonna shoot me for suggesting this)

5) if you feel that you're missing the low end punch, ahem, the really low frequencies ala subwoofer grunt maybe try:
a) removing carpet or experiment with other floor mat materials
b) experiment with seating distance. i always get more low end when i move my couch further away.

6) load up a drums track and run-in your plaster ceiling!

7) ok i'm done. now i'll leave it to the real gurus to laugh at me and my amateur suggestions

Agree, speakers need to be pulled out further into the room, and maybe widened a bit with some toe-in.

sswong3374 wrote:To me the C distance seems a bit too near to the back wall. Since your room still got plenty space, have your try to increase the C to 2.5'-3'??

Besides B&C seems to close, it may create resonance on low frequency.

As such you may experience booming, futhermore your corner is blank, resonance even higher.

Thanks sswong,

I am first experimenting using the Rules of Fifth, hence all the position above is based on that. Not having any booming effect now. In fact, low end is a tad soft.

To be frank, the low end that I like was when the the distance from rear wall is 1 ft and the distance from side wall was 1.5 ft. But this is against what the Rules of Fifth is recommending. Hhhhmmmm!

Yes, on resonance, I am looking into option of what to fill up the walls with but after completely clean up the boxes lah. Behind the sofa, is also still fill up with boxes hehehhe.

microkernel wrote:nice setup...especially your new speaker...geram ngan speaker tu...

Thanks micro. Kalau geram, cubit2 lah

Once cleaned up the room, may invite people around for listening.

Drife,

Some of your 2 kupang is interesting.

First time I am hearing about height of rack will interfere with sound reproduction. I am thinking of changing the rack to wooden rack and make it neater. Now it looks like a bit cramped up.

I am trying to understand the theory behind bringing out the speakers further upfront as suggested by you, sswong and hifikrazy. I have started to loose out on the low end sound that I like by doing so. Although I do get a different sound appearance from this. This weekend, i will try to bring out the speakers to about 3.5 ft to 4.5 ft.

anything in between the speakers would affect the "picture". ideally (for me) i'd have my gear next to the couch and just have the speakers sitting by themselves. but, i also don't like the idea of long cable runs. hmm... tricky tradeoff.

currently i've split my racks to 2-tiers. previously i had gears on the floor and i thought it gave me a better sonic picture (could identify where those vocalists or musicians were standing/seating). and this is all with entry level gear.

wooden racks or wooden speakers stands might mellow out the sound a bit. tames a bit of brightness. can someone double confirm this?

Drife,

If i go point by point,

1. Wll try for 3.5 ft to 4.5 ft this weekend. Question - do I then move my sofa further back?

2. This was tried before where the distance inbetween speakers was 7 ft. I like the stereo imaging from this. But again, this will be against the Rules of Fifth.

3. This is spot on. I do somtimes feel that the vocals are inclined towards left. I have taken away the mirror but now there is a cd rack on the left wall. Should I leave the wall bare?

First of all, don't get too hung up on the Rule of Fifth since you don't have a perfecty symmetrical and rectangle room with the speakers and listening position perfectly centered. But are you sure you have really followed the rule? The front of your speakers don't look like they are are one fifth of the way into the room, based on the 7' distance you said you have behind your listening position.

Pulling the speakers further out will tend to reduce the quantity of bass, but should improve the quality of bass and also the soundstage depth and imaging.

As to whether you need to move your sofa back, it depends on how close you are to the speakers after you move them. Although this is against the Audio Physics theory, I would not have your listening position closer to the speaker than their distance apart.

Also, don't place your mirror at the first reflection point. Best way to check this?... You shouldn't be able to see the reflection of your speakers when you are seated. You don't have to move your CD rack... It may act as a good diffusor.

Hifikrazy,

This is something I am bit confused as well. The rule states:

'The distance from the listening position to the wall behind the listener should be about the same as the distance between the speakers and the front wall, or about 20% in.'

So in my set up, I actually have to be 1'9" from rear wall correct?

Yes, the mirror is now gone. Temporarily placed at the wall behind sofa. But will be permanently moved soon (too heavy for me to carry alone).

I think I will sketch 2 scenarios to compare:

1. Sketch one - measurements as per the rules of fifth
2. Sketch two - measurements of how its being set up currently.

elhefe wrote:...

I am first experimenting using the Rules of Fifth, hence all the position above is based on that. Not having any booming effect now. In fact, low end is a tad soft.

To be frank, the low end that I like was when the the distance from rear wall is 1 ft and the distance from side wall was 1.5 ft. But this is against what the Rules of Fifth is recommending. Hhhhmmmm!

Yes, on resonance, I am looking into option of what to fill up the walls with but after completely clean up the boxes lah. Behind the sofa, is also still fill up with boxes hehehhe.

You were once with HCOC right ? Then you know my style la. So let me brutally blunt with you. You are too obsessed with the rule of fifths. Forget about the rule of fifths. Obviously it has not work for you at all. 'F' that rule and go with what your ears tells you work best. You yourself have already stated some of the important factors :

1. Speakers 1 ft from rear wall and 1.5ft from side wall. You said you like it. So what if it's against the rule of fifths ?
2. In a later post, you also stated that you like the imaging when the speakers are 7ft apart. Again, so what if its against the rule of fifths ?

IMO, you are wasting time with this 'rule of fifths'. Its only a -guideline-. If you like the system setup in a way that conflicts with it, then your ears ultimately rules. Life is too short to let a rule get in the way of music.

Sorry ar, for the blunt post.

Blunt but make sense mr wongkn

Yes yes thats always have been my rule - trust my ears. But i have always wanted to experiment with the available guidelines thats been used by lots if people. Never had the chance to do so before. So want to see how much of these so called industry guidelines actually works.

But give another week of tweaking, if not satisfied, then go back to my original plan and stary enjoying music again rather than tweaking. Too much hard work hehehe.

elhefe wrote:The fun has started. I have moved into my previous own house. As mentioned in the original ProAc thread, I have set up the hifi using Rule of Fifths by Usher for the moment. Measurements as below:

A - distance between speakers - 5'9"
B - distance of speaker from side wall - 2'1"
C - distance of speaker from rear wall - 1'9"
D - distance between listening position to speaker - 8'3"
E - distance between listening position to rear wall - 7'

I have experimented with various A, B and C. Cant do much with D and E as there are other stuff to set up.

With the current set up, bass is not overwhelmed. However, increasing A seems to have better stereo imaging but bass can be bloated.

Will take pics once tidied up the room

Hi there,
Is this room fully yours or you still have to share it with kids and "The One" ?
If it's yours then try this out.
Of C and E, swap the dimensions. That means speaker out of front wall by 7' and seating position to rear wall out by 1'9".


cheers.

Completely my own. No sharing except for listening to music, share with minister of household. Can do whatever to the room as long as I dont touch the budget for her wardrobe. Hehehe.

elhefe wrote:Drife,

If i go point by point,

1. Wll try for 3.5 ft to 4.5 ft this weekend. Question - do I then move my sofa further back?

2. This was tried before where the distance inbetween speakers was 7 ft. I like the stereo imaging from this. But again, this will be against the Rules of Fifth.

3. This is spot on. I do somtimes feel that the vocals are inclined towards left. I have taken away the mirror but now there is a cd rack on the left wall. Should I leave the wall bare?

1. no harm trying wikin's "listeners' rear wall reinforcement" suggestion.
2. i second Wong. and too many variables in hifi, sometimes cannot follow rules.
3. try to get the vocals dead center. no fun leaning towards one side to enjoy the music. can't comment more, my knowledge in diffusors are zero.

hifikrazy's right too. quality > quantity. tight bass with faster decay > rear wall amplified bass overhang. hmm... hope i get this one right.

bro, don't give up. the headache can be a good learning experience. my twin 5in mini floorstanders used to sound like entry level 6in bookshelves before i got the placement right. i guess when you get it right it will sound like there's a little subwoofer doing some deep fast wall/floor-radiating punches.

getting there is part of the fun. while on the way there, crank it up and enjoy the music. you know what your MFs are capable of

a kamikaze drummer on steroids. i dedicate this to your system. there you go:

elhefe wrote:Blunt but make sense mr wongkn

Yes yes thats always have been my rule - trust my ears. But i have always wanted to experiment with the available guidelines thats been used by lots if people. Never had the chance to do so before. So want to see how much of these so called industry guidelines actually works.

But give another week of tweaking, if not satisfied, then go back to my original plan and stary enjoying music again rather than tweaking. Too much hard work hehehe.

Actually such 'rules' would be a lot more useful if we go beyond their hype and into their basic working principle. Rather than a 'rule of fifths', it's more accurately a 'rule of using odd locations', inside the room. I.e. where we place the speakers and our listening chair, it should be an odd distance from the boundaries of the room walls. The basic principle is that we don't want any frequency resonance to build up and resonance works by sound being reflected off the wall and being in phase and this requires the speakers to be even distance from the walls. I.e. speakers are exact in the middle. Or 1 quarter location. And so forth, all even division of the distance between the walls (any opposing walls). So, the principle is to place the speakers in an odd location, i.e. 1/3, or 1/5 or 1/7. The idea is that this will not allow the resonances to build up and thus avoid boom and or undesirable artifacts. To me, simply sticking to a 'rule of fifth' is itself too restrictive. It is too mechanical. If you really want a good starting location, use the 'rule of odd placement'. I.e. the speaker should be in an odd location from the front/rear and left/right walls. I myself use this rule of odd placement as a starting point but I quickly move away as I start to tune by ear. Sometimes due to the speaker's characteristic or perhaps room size, we might even want to place the speaker slightly away from the odd placement and allow a bit of resonance because it might help to reinforce the bass. Sometimes while the speakers may be placed according to the rule of fifths, the listening position may be placed according to the rule of sevenths, i.e. 1/7 away from the rear wall because if I sit 1/5 away from the rear wall, in a typical room, that might be too close to the speakers. So IMHO, start with the rule of odd placement instead of stictly rule of fifths but it is only the first step. Beyond that, you need to trust your ears. Bear in mind that often, a little bit of bass boom can be enjoyable to a lot of people because it reinforces a segment of the bass and this can make some music, rock for e.g. more enjoyable.

So don't get too carried away that you don't enjoy the music anymore !

[quote="WongKN"]

elhefe wrote:Blunt but make sense mr wongkn
So don't get too carried away that you don't enjoy the music anymore !

Hi,
To be tactful here, I'd like to cautious ppl with this statement "enjoy the music"....
In this audiophoolate world of hi-fi.... "HIGH FIDELITY";
One might not admit it but 99.99% of all phools need recognition that their sound system sounds GOOD; not the music that they play is enjoyable yadee yadee yadaa.
So if one spends tens of thousands of ringgit in hi-fi, he has all the right responsibility to set it up properly 1st while listening to music. I dun deny you still need to enjoy your music but please you must do your homework to setup your system nicely.
If music enjoyment is all that matters, please buy an AIWA 1000W PMPO. That's all you need ;-)

cheers.

I think Aiwa no more already, apart from customer service.

Good points Wikin. To elaborate, my key message is actually to not get too immersed into the set-up aspects that you don't enjoy the music. Playing good music in a good hifi system is a lot more enjoyable than listening to it on a transistor radio for e.g. (the most common phrase). But if one gets stuck with worrying about whether the speaker is 1/5 away from the side walls, to the extent that he/she is even afraid to change the set-up to get better sound, then the enjoyment of music will be affected. It is very easy to get stuck into this endless loop/trap.

first thing is to get the low end (placement) right. then the rest will eventually fall into place with tweaks. i gotta give credit to a forumer who suggested this. i have been following this "rule" and have been happy since.

BR, my friend Awai got a Dawa system for sale. can post here or not?

hmm... do u mean Akai system? There isnt anything call Awai...or Dawa.

During my school days, many of us weren't rich and still rather ignorant of the hi fi term; ending up gettng this esteemed compo sets, so a system like the Aiwa 1400 PMPO was quite a revelation~.
I still remember 1 of my friend own it and we were impressed of the fact that the port hole did have enough air movement to push our hair side way

hehe. my friend ah wai.... ah... was just joking.

yeah i guess almost everyone of us here's been through the compo stage.

i remember during college days tweaking my plastic rm200 sony mini compo. (its really a compo because its a lot smaller than a mini or midi hifi)

best thing was the speakers are detachable and i placed them on stands and voila! there came the soundstage, imaging and scale... that was an eye opener to STEREO

Ha ha ... he was kidding, Adrian .. Awai + Dawa = Aiwa

adrian4454 wrote:hmm... do u mean Akai system? There isnt anything call Awai...or Dawa.

During my school days, many of us weren't rich and still rather ignorant of the hi fi term; ending up gettng this esteemed compo sets, so a system like the Aiwa 1400 PMPO was quite a revelation~.
I still remember 1 of my friend own it and we were impressed of the fact that the port hole did have enough air movement to push our hair side way

Bro seems like you and me are in the same age group and been exposed to the same gears of yesteryears too

cheers

Aaaaahhh mini compo was a big hit. I had a Sharp twin cam mini compo with surround sound feature. It was rm250 i hink in 1990. I connected the surround sound port to my late father's kenwood amp and run a pair of monstrous pioneers speakers hahahah.

hmm.... elhefe's quiet. maybe he's hired Cikgu Joki to land the mystic touch?

i spoke too soon. hey you're here. bro you already got them to rock?

got that real deep floor sweeping bass already?

drife wrote:hmm.... elhefe's quiet. maybe he's hired Cikgu Joki to land the mystic touch?

Not quiet, but have to do an adhoc travelling tomorrow so closing out some stuff.

cool. have a safe trip.

drife wrote:i spoke too soon. hey you're here. bro you already got them to rock?

got that real deep floor sweeping bass already?

Pushing the speakers back to 1' from front wall and 1.2' from side wall is giving me good bass.

Put on foo fighters yesterday. The drums really gave me the adrenalin to start drumming at midnight

Wikin, WongKN,

Dont worry. I get the message that both of you are saying. Listening to music is the priority but having it played on 'perfect' set up will be heaven.

cool. still, one day i believe your acs will be far out from the rear wall. then the whole room especially floor and walls will be singing...

i miss the old dave grohl when he was with cobain and novoselic. that time he was more gila. more like "controlled gila"

Waaaahhh drife, U dave grohl fan also? Yes, I prefer him to be on drums rather than guitar. his drumming style is very unique.

elhefe wrote: ....
Pushing the speakers back to 1' from front wall and 1.2' from side wall is giving me good bass.

Put on foo fighters yesterday. The drums really gave me the adrenalin to start drumming at midnight

Ah, now we are rocking/talking !!

The rest of you bargers are damn rich la. Back when I was young, all I had even during university was only an old Sanyo tape recorder (the one you carry to record speech) for my 'minicompo'. It was only after I worked during my holidays that I could save up enough to get an Akai walkman. Compared to this, your mini-compos were super high-end stuff man !! I remember I used to go over to Penang Plaza and oogle at the Telefunken minicompo they have on display.

yup gotta love grohl's energy and also krist novoselic's lazy style bass who don't follow rules of music school.

Telefunken. Now thats a name that I am also familiar with. Very squarish mini compo hehehe.

My Sharp Mini Compo, I had to work at pasar malam, selling burgers with my brother to buy the unit. Not easy woooo.

same ler Wong. i also started with walkmans. that time had to buy high quality Maxell/TDK/BASF tapes (chrome ones) to do "really serious" dubbing.

LMAO. the good ole days.

dang, where did all this old skool brands go?

now owned by chinese tycooons who also owns AudioNote? ahem...

Hahahahah... it's true then, all of us good fellows started with very simple things. I do remember those Maxell/TDK/BASF chrome and even metal tapes. Those days in Penang (late-80s, which shows how old I am ) were a boon because music shops there will let us go in, then demo each track of a new LP and let us list down those songs we want recorded into a cassette. I even supply them my own chrome cassettes !

Ooops, sorry for hijacking this thread. Let's re-focus back onto elhefe's journey to audio nirvana !

TDK's got a new line-up of cube style pc speakers. but i don't know if they're still 100% japanese. Maxell and BASF no idea. maybe 1 day we'll find a maxell or basf karaoke bling bling system along pasar pudu.

ohh yeah forgot about metal tapes... and the pain in trying to recover crumpled tapes when they get stuck in the player.... and the Kontakt (really made in germany man!) alcohol tape head spray and countless cotton swabs. all in the name of chasing fidelity.

Welcome to Abba, Saturday Night Fever and Breakdance era!

I usually go to Pertama Complex (Kedai Aunty) to get CDs dubbed into TDK cassetes. One time, i keep buying sony tapes in a bundle of 3 in Makro because it was cheaper.

Makro is cool. wholesale price ma. back then my idea of quadrophonic or surround sound was hooking up 4 speakers....

TO THE SAME SPEAKER OUTS. my amp no speaker AB, only speaker A.

that time no idea about impedance because my amp/speaker did not blow. phew, lucky. now thinking back, LMFAO.

then the stereo imaging would lari. and sometimes sound hollow. but then i thought, hey, ok ma, now i have 4 air supply vocalists singing. 2 in front and 2 at the back. hahahahaaha

drife wrote:hmm.... elhefe's quiet. maybe he's hired Cikgu Joki to land the mystic touch?

Oye.. Drife, I not Cik-gu, I batang lah. So my mystic touch won't help

Nonetheless, I agree to almost all of the advice given here, so I have nothing to add since it is well covered (which means all of you are already Sifu-level!).

If I were to make any comments to elhefe, I would like to kindly point out this: - If preferred bass comes from placing speakers at 1' out from front wall, I am afraid you are listening to the bass which has been reinforced. In such case, you will not be able to get really tuneful bass because it has been subjected to a lot of modulation in Phase & Time. Although you are hearing more bass, it is not accurate. Also, you can never achieve 'continuous sound' from top to bottom, and the issue on homogeneity of sound spectrum as well as soundstaging is out of the window. Do not under estimate soundstaging, it holds the key to Form of Music.

Utilise your subconscious sensory to guide you since your are a musician will not lead you to disarray.

You have a good listening room, congratulations! Enjoy the journey.

JoKi

Joki,

I totally understand your explanation on the reinforced bass but so far thats the best and tonally balanced sound I get from the set up.

Just got back from Miri and KK. Didnt have much time to continue with any tweaking, instead spend a few hours just listening to music. Streaming from iPad via QED uPlay to the set up. Easy listening to a few MJ, Andrea Bocelli and Beatles. Had to crank up the volume to 11 oclock when using QED uPlay. usually 10 oclock is enough.

Not to bad streaming from iPad. Very convenient.

In Miri, I went to this one and only hifi shop in Bintang Mall. Early this year when I was still staying in Miri, they didnt offer much options. But now, my my my they really stepped up. They had Naim, Audio Research, various Chord DACs, Onkyo NDS1, furutech, audioquest, full Rega set up (even their tuner) etc.

Wanted to buy the onkyo because it will take digital signal from ipod and offers digital out to connect to DAC but I heard that it does not work with iPhone, only iPod.

elhefe,

When you stream from iPod, you are streaming MP3 files right ? What data-rate are you using ? Did you the higher rates (MP3, as I understand allows variable data transfer rate) ?

WongKN,

I am streaming both m4a and mp3 files from iPad. The QED uPlay is based on Apt-X Bluetooth audio codec. I cannot measure the data rate from ipad to the receiver but I know that Apt-X can handle Audio Format 16-bit, 44.1kHz (CD-Quality) with data rates up to 352kbps.

Hmmm.... for some time already I was told that MP3 at data rate of 352kbps is very near to CD so I am curious. The convenience of this method of playing music makes a lot of sense for the secondary systems, you know as background music or even a 2nd or 3rd system for a quick relaxation when it doesn't make sense to power up the main systems and so forth, exactly as your example. Apparently the higher data-rate allows the MP3 to get to near lossless decompression. So in a simpler system, we actually might not be able to tell, or don't really bother about the loss of sound quality. If you ever have a chance to try a low-compression (high data rate) MP3, please let me know.

Yes WongKN.

You are right. To me, all these streaming business (unless we are talking about high end stuff VS this RM300 QED uPlay), is more for convenience rather than SQ. I usually use this either via Airport Express in the kitchen or lounge set up. Its just that yesterday was a lazy day for me after the tiring visit to Miri and KK. I still have not set up the Airport Express as my wifi router is not available yet in this house. Hence, the QED came in.

Its nothing to shout about but no need to stand up from the sofa to change tracks hehehe. Hence, if you notice, I did not really ellaborate more on my 'streaming' Sunday experience. A simple 'Not too bad streaming from iPad' comment is sufficient

But one thing I like about streaming from ipad, is when I go to Youtube, the sound can still be streamed to the QED.

Well, the Apt-X claims that it streams a near-CD quality audio. This website is quite useful: http://www.aptx.com/Home.aspx