Turntable and power supply/conditioners, etc

Wanted to start a discussion on this:

What effect does power supply from the mains have on a turntable motor?

How much would a t/t benefit from using a power conditioner/filter/stabiliser?

A bit? None? Lots?

Do share your insight ...

do whatever you like, just don't get electrocuted.

Errr...better or more accurate tt motor spin perhaps !!

mugenfoo wrote:do whatever you like, just don't get electrocuted.

Thank you, moogs ...

Bass...

How have you setup your TT ?

The only major part of the whole TT is the Power circuit and the motor and the primary focus of TT owners is on isolation platforms, spikes to keep away the vibration.

Chanelling the electrical requirement via a conditioner / stabilizer may bring improvement on the motor's capability, smooth rotation...speed stability....maybe. In return the "SQ" improves in parallel as well.

A lame mans interpretation.

Actually, never thought of the effects on a TT until you raised this up. Was more focusing on the CDP / Tuner / AMP performance. Now that you have brought this up....thats another area that needs a look ...hmmm...

Or maybe someone explored this area and don't mind sharing....

cheers

Hi Bassraptor,

Better ac supply will definitely benefit any electrical equipments including turntable motor.
Better ac supply causes more consistent motor rotation and speed in designed rpm, thus the actual performance of turntable will be revealed, overall sound will be more effortless and consistent.
Your Purepower is a good ac conditioner to maintain 50hz frequency ( rpm in speed ) for the motor designed rpm.
Previous PS Audio Power Plant Multiwave features ( altering the ac frequency ) is not recommended for audio equipments though it may sound good for some, it is like applying steriods to athlete..and the side effect is the equipments life span will be shortened.

soonthas wrote:Hi Bassraptor,
Your Purepower is a good ac conditioner to maintain 50hz frequency ( rpm in speed ) for the motor designed rpm.

I believe he had traded his Purepower for a VW Passat steering wheel last month!

The other physical conditions shall be kept in optimum like levelling, physical isolation, vibrations control, dust & static charge control..etc for the turntable to perform its best.

The fact that the Linn LP12 has undergone half a dozen or so changes in their power supply indicates how vital this component is to the turntable. The same can be said for all the other turntables.
As to what is best to be emulated will depend on the type of motor itself. In the case of the LP12, Linn have even gone back on their word by changing to DC. And that's like a rm13,000 pop!

Actually, I'm not referring to the turntable's power supply. It's the power supply to the power supply I'm asking about.

That would be unusual but interesting. Unusual because the power supply will be treated twice when usually a single properly designed unit should suffice. Getting the right synergies for 2 components is also difficult. So at best it will be trial and error. Nevertheless it's interesting because at the end of the day is what sound best that matters. May be I should try running the local power trans that's sitting on my AV setup to the turntable. Will feedback the outcome when it happens.

Hmmmm....where and how shall I share my insight?
OK, lets look at most common Rega and LP12 model which implement a 110V AC 2 phase sychronous motor. Lets leave aside other kinds of DC motor and related quartz lock circuitry found in many Japanese TT's. Japanese DC circuitry is quite proprietry as they use a variety of DC or AC motors manufactured or OEM'ed to their own design.
The Premotec/Philips/Airpax AC motor requires up to 110V and 50hz AC input to rotate 300rpm with least vibration and reliably. The key here is an accurate 50Hz input frequency and 67.5Hz for 45RPM at a tuned voltage below 110VAC for least motor vibration. Amazingly the lower the voltage, the lower the noise and vibration but at the expense of turning torque. To little torque and it affects the startup, too much voltage and it becomes noiser to affect the sonics somehow. In either case, they'll spin constantly and reliably at the given speed depending on the desired input frequency of say 50hz for 33.3 rpm.
The AC motor here requires input of 2 oppposing voltage phase to spin in one required direction. The simplest (and cheapest) implemetation is the use of phase switching capacitor wired at the motor terminals and a resistor to drop the voltage from 230VAC to less than 110VAC. Having said this, this circuitry doesn't affect your AC input at whatever raw AC frequency from your mains which may vary from 49hz to 53hz, constant or not I'm not sure. For me I'm lucky to measure (with my cheap digital meter) to obtain a reasonably accurate 50hz on the reading. Thats my place, I've no idea at other homes or areas.
In short, reasonably accurate 50hz AC input, and my LP12 is quite spot on judging from the strobe disc. My Rega P3 inherently spins a lil faster because of the phenolic plastic sub platter and there's nothing I can do about it unless its replaced.
So!.. another isolating tranny to TT help change improve sonics, could be, but not night and day differences IMHO. With this type of motor, the real gains in my opinion is to ideally have a elaborate circuitry that'll generate a quartz locked 50Hz input (for 33rpm) and somewhere much less than the technically rated 110VAC input (to be fine tuned) this particular motor for minimal vibration, only then its optimum and contribute to great sonics. Its not some simple and straightforward implementation of countless AC filters, another tranny, voltage regulators, expensive and megabuck AC regeneration gear that will guarantee a lift in performace to the TT. Its NOT that simple. How and what kind of motor implemented on a given TT does affect the overall sonic performance to any degree. Rega have revised their motor circuitry a number of times over the decades but they still spin faster than 33rpm in practice. The latest incarnation of motor PCB have the least vibration and also helped by the latest and current design of the supplied Premotec motor. Its not really the same animal as the Philips or Airpax motor from say 1978. Same applies to Lp12 over the decades.

There's more to this all, just sharing my insight.

And a mighty good insight it is cmboy.

The higher end TTs usually have some sort of feedback/feedforward circuitry that monitors the actual speed of the motor and attempts to correct the speed. So it tries to remove the dependency on the wall supply, re: 50Hz requirement, etc, and ensures the accuracy of the speed by itself.

Nevertheless, perhaps it is because of the level of equipment they use, owners of high-end TTs always tells me that they hear important improvements with proper TT power supply support & isolation, e.g. the use of Clearaudio Magix to support the TT power supply. All of them will power the TT off a power conditioner like PowerTran and so forth.

BTW, The Oracle TT owner manuals have a very good section of the benefits and ill-effects of such things is irregular platter speed and so forth.

WOngKN / CM....

Questions :

Is it safe to assume the "electrical supply 50Hz" has a domino effect on the chain and would an entry / mid range power conditioners stabilize it to a constant of 50Hz or it's a std feature of all power conditioners ?

Thanks

cheers

AC frequency inaccuracy or unstability will affect the performance of TT's fitted with 2 phase AC synchronous motors. Older TT motors seen (Budget Rega, older LP12, some budget Thorens models, some other vintage British TT's) with simple capacitor phase shift can and will be affected by your quality of incoming AC. Conditioners practically do nothing in this aspect. Thats why these breed of TT designed for 230V/50hz cannot be plugged into a US home with 110V/60hz input which will result in a faster rotating motor. The Linn Valhalla, Hercules II or Rega P9 PSU doesn't face problems and can be switched to adapt and therefore a serious enhancement for motor rotational accuracy and stability. BTW, replacing the input cable doesn't help a damn thing either.
Just to digress further if one compares a Lp12 or Rega motor circuitry with say a Technics SL1200, the Technics wins hands down in its very advanced and super design making the Lp12 and Rega motor implementation look like backyard crap. Yep, say what you may but its a blunt truth and the Technics was unbeatable in its design and leagues ahead by comparison. 33.33 rpm is SPOT ON..no if's,no buts. 3 decades down the road to 2011, and they're NOT even near that super Japanese circuitry and huge motor.

I believe it was a Western conspiracy that did the Technics in during the 1970s. In today's more enlightened times, look at the way the Brit mag writers are falling over themselves to promote the virtues of that classic direct-drive turntable!

I wonder if the newer rim-drive models from VPI and TTWeights and Brinkman's direct-drive one can match the Technics for accuracy in speed. Not cheap, though ...

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback ... I now use a VPI Classic, which uses a 600 RPM AC synchronous motor. Can't tell any difference using various power cords. Or plugged into my ex-PurePower or Powertrans. VPI's only upgrade in this area, the SDS, is only for 110-volt models. Any suggestion for alternatives?

Don't think there's a suitable after market one as good as SDS, but the Project Speedbox SE is available at Tong Lee. However, I think the VPI has a larger motor than those in the Project, LP12 or Rega which are 2Watt motor. The Speedbox may not have sufficient current drive for VPI motor. Afterall its designed for their own TT's. Then there's also the Hercules MOSE, a external boxed up version of Hercules II but again, specifically designed to match LP12 or Rega motor. All these control gear are costly.

There is a locally made version of the Project Speedbox SE that can handle up to 15W (i think) motors .

Same principle, its an AC regeneration output. Varies the speed by altering the output's sinewave freq while keeping a rock steady rms Voltage.

Anyone interested, can PM.

mugenfoo wrote:There is a locally made version of the Project Speedbox SE that can handle up to 15W (i think) motors .

Same principle, its an AC regeneration output. Varies the speed by altering the output's sinewave freq while keeping a rock steady rms Voltage.

Anyone interested, can PM.

Stop teasing and gimme the number, man!!!

bassraptor wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:There is a locally made version of the Project Speedbox SE that can handle up to 15W (i think) motors .

Same principle, its an AC regeneration output. Varies the speed by altering the output's sinewave freq while keeping a rock steady rms Voltage.

Anyone interested, can PM.

Stop teasing and gimme the number, man!!!

In your case, you already know the place ... no need for me to tell you where to get it at all !!!

Oh, the same one used for the Clearaudio?

I sent you PM, SJ.

Tks, bro ...

WongKN wrote:I sent you PM, SJ.

Justice Pao to the rescue !!!

Darth Vader vs. Justice Pao
New vs. Old

I don't think he's called darth vader in the movie. It was a more canggih name. Dark helmet or something like that.

WongKN wrote:I don't think he's called darth vader in the movie. It was a more canggih name. Dark helmet or something like that.

"You have the ring, and I see your Schwartz is as big as mine. Now let's see how well you handle it ! "

Some, if not all "Online UPS - AC --> DC --> AC " have built in stabilizers / conditioner and the sine wave is also maintained at 50Hz constant.

Would this not be sufficient to power the TT motor to a stable speed at 33 1/3 similar to some of these dedicated boxes May not work on the 45rpm requirement.


cheers