Subwoofer Discussion (originally from NSAG thread)

[uncle_vic]

Hi Wong KN, I may not know u well enough. Just a question, as I'm curious about the talk u have now about subwoofer but there seems to be some underlying info that should be interesting enough to tickle my curiousity or someone elses' here too in this forum.


Question(sorry a bit off topic from the main topic): What's your take on subwoofers? (if any). Like what it should do and what it shouldn't be doing or do (if u have any opinion at all).

[soonthas]

Hi Unc Vic,



Thanks for your mini show which I enjoyed very much with the engagement of total 10 subs....( yes, 10 subs ). Compared to last year, your setup sound now is more transparent & open due to better extended highs; the upper mid, mid and mid low bass is better control & definition and the vocal remains tube-like sweet and delicate.

Your setup sound would be perfect if you could reduce the slightly emphasized mid low bass and increase the controlled low bass quantity.



Happy tuning and take care.

[cyh]

Hi guys!
Anyone of you here read the Sunday Times? Well, if you do I'm sure you have seen one of our NSAG superstar! Look up on the page with the pic of the Triangle setup. Hehehe

[htkaki]

Max,

Was this the owner you told me about last time ? Did he buy the subwoofer from you ?

Yes, he is the one. He repositioned his Puppy with the help of Mr JBL. IMHO, he does not a sub. Will tell you more when we meet up.

rsbn589, cyh came yesterday. On a perfect timing too since we have NEW TOYS to play with. He happily joined. Apart from the usual dosage of hi-fi, he auditioned the HT system too since a customer from Klang wanted to test the SVS sub.

[WongKN]

UnkerVic,
I have always been interested in the mechanisms of how a subwoofer integrates into a music system ever since I heard an awesome system which an Audio Physics subwoofer complements a Sonus Faber Extrema.

In this instance, because I have the good fortune to hear a Watt/Puppy in a properly matched system before, I did not expect someone with one to want to buy a subwoofer. Thus my question to Max.

Personally I prefer a floorstander which has a woofer large enough to generate a good degree of mid-bass 'punch', similar to what I hear from a live drum. I have experimented with an audio subwoofer before and I find its effect very intriguing especially in successfully generating the very low frequency 'rumble' of the bass drum. But in an actual music score, and thus a live classical music concert, a bass drum is not allowed to 'linger' and it must occupy only a certain number of 'bars'. So in a real concert, the bass drummer will stop the drum with the hitter (there is actually a proper name for it but it escapes me for the moment). Sometimes a recording engineer allows the bass drum to linger on, like Telarc Carmina Burana for e.g., in order to affect the impact of the music.

There is no right or wrong answer with regards to a subwoofer. As in everything in hifi, the answer is relative. That's my personal opinion only, anyway.

[fizi]

Reached home already. I ll load up the remaining few items tomorrow. Jo is very busy.

HTKAKI,
since u all always get to gather please help me poisoned Mr RSBN buy new speaker from u...hopefully i can tackle his quad ESL

[tycham]

Reached home already. I ll load up the remaining few items tomorrow. Jo is very busy.

HTKAKI,
since u all always get to gather please help me poisoned Mr RSBN buy new speaker from u...hopefully i can tackle his quad ESL

Still looking for this elusive pair? There is one for sale here in Singapore.

[uncle_vic]

Hi Wong KN, thxs for the writeup(explanation). Understood what u said, it's difficult for many to accept subwoofer(s) for the same reasons u mentioned thus. So everyone else should/could be able to understand the difficulties associated with the use of subwoofers. Good subwoofers which are user friendly(meaning could be tuned by the user thru several means) are very very expensive to have. So the expensive part and the difficulties of integrating with the main speakers for music reproduction are generally acceptable reasons for not wanting one! And nobody would tend to argue on these points.


About the Carmina Burana track, the bass lingering could be the ability of the microphones to pick up the elongated hall reverberations, that can't be help. If the lingering of the bass is not that serious an issue, then the reproduction of that piece of music in a typical listening room can still be tolerable, to the extent the bass lingering could be actually ignored, provided the subwoofers used could handle/output the sound pressure and have lots of amplification power to control the woofer drivers, the better design the subwoofers the better the bass lingering could merged with the main music proper. Sometimes we could hear the main speakers 'go out of breath' as an analogy, which really call for the 'out sourcing' of the bass contents to another specialised driver unit called 'the subwoofer'! That's about a good reason for the deployment of a subwoofer unit, or multiple subwoofer units!

[WongKN]

There are other reasons for adding a subwoofer. Not all floorstanders will produce bass below 30Hz. Those that really do costs more than an arm and a leg, actually more than all our arms and legs added together. And they are gigantic which means demanding a room most of us here cannot afford.

My Apogee Centaur Major is rated down to around 30Hz only for USEFUL low-bass. When a bass drum in a classical concert excites the hall, the reverberation goes down very low. We actually FEEL the reverberation. Many floorstanders that are at sane prices simply do not reproduce bass in this region convincingly. Thus this is one arguement for adding a subwoofer, for most people who are mortals like us.

In this case, I will excuse the person using a Wilson Grand Slamm for e.g. for questioning the use of a subwoofer simply because with a 15" woofer in a room the size of a low-cost apartment, he might never have missed low-bass and so rightfully questions why we need an 'artificial' instrument like the subwoofer and that the main speaker SHOULD be doing the job. But of course he may simply have forgotten that people like us simply do not have the resources. So it is useful to bear in mind scenarios like this when engaged in a discussion about the pros and cons of a subwoofer.

What I do not agree though, is what a subwoofer typically ends up being used, and that is the cross over frequency is turned up as high as possible, way above 100Hz, in an effort to boost up the mid-bass energy and impact, in an attempt to compensate for the main speaker's shortcomings in this area. Now, this is my personal opinion only of course, but I feel this is artificial and will muddle up the sound. The main speaker NEEDS to be able to produce powerful, tight and punchy mid-bass, including part of the low-bass. The subwoofer can help below 30-40Hz.

This is the gist of why I think subwoofers will never be wide-spread in a hifi system. A very good subwoofer like the Audio Physics Rhea II costs around RM15k I think. So people tend to do the calculation : RM15k for an extra 20 to 25Hz of sound which in 99.99% of their music may never exist in the original source.....

[mugenfoo]

sometimes, users like to add a "sub-woofer" but not for true sub duties. The subs are tuned well into the midbass (>40Hz) regions to add some "flavour" into their music. it is a matter of personal preference but it should not be taken as being a truthful or faithful method to compensate for a typical loudspeaker's shortcomings. Even most decent bookshelf speakers can easily reach the 50~60Hz region without much problems.

But in the lower octaves, a difference of say 28Hz to 32Hz is a massive difference and here is where the true Subs should play their role.

A real sub should not be heard so much but to be felt instead. Improvements to look out for would be improved dynamics and a more fuller presentation of the whole soundscape.

But the moment a sub adds more overhang and that sustained bass boom note, and it so audibly makes its presence esp more midbass known, then the sub's purpose has been abused already.

[uncle_vic]

I agree with Mugen Foo!

[fizi]

Reached home already. I ll load up the remaining few items tomorrow. Jo is very busy.

HTKAKI,
since u all always get to gather please help me poisoned Mr RSBN buy new speaker from u...hopefully i can tackle his quad ESL

Still looking for this elusive pair? There is one for sale here in Singapore.

Speaker SOLD

[mugenfoo]

I agree with Mugen Foo!

which portions ?


and unker vic , why your turn to disappear so long instead ? did u get some new toys lately ?

[musicmusic]

A real sub should not be heard so much but to be felt instead.

Humans do not hear frequencies below 20hz but they can feel them.

If you want a sub to feel the bass, then get one that do not output above 20hz or cross it below 20hz. Anything above 20hz then you will hear and also feel them unless you are deaf.

There is no such thing as sub should be felt but not heard unless your restrict it to below 20hz where almost 99.999% music do not have any frequencies within that range. In principle, in this case, you can see and feel ( knowing that you have a sub) the presence of the subwoofer but it is not doing anything.

[uncle_vic]

This part Mugen.........


sometimes, users like to add a "sub-woofer" but not for true sub duties.
The subs are tuned well into the midbass (>40Hz) regions to add
some "flavour" into their music. it is a matter of personal preference but it should not be taken as being a truthful or faithful method to compensate for a typical loudspeaker's shortcomings.

[uncle_vic]

And Mugen, this part........

A real sub should not be heard so much but to be felt instead.
Improvements to look out for would be improved dynamics and a more
fuller presentation of the whole soundscape.

[uncle_vic]

Mugen wrote........

and unker vic , why your turn to disappear so long instead ? did u get some new toys lately ?


Yeah.......a digital blood pressure monitor........

[cmboy]

I'm quite happy to add a DIY modded budget locally assembled but branded sub to my system and amazingly its blended itself quite well for my listening pleasure. To me every sub have is own character, blending and color, lucky for me mine doesn't stand out like some serious mismatch and upset the overal tonality of the music. Its not at all a perfect or ideal blend but the end result have my personal approval anytime.

Sorry for off topic Unker Vic, I bought a Panasonic digital BP meter a long time ago at some sales throwout for Rm300 and I just wonder how accurate are these things. Since a long time ago and conversations with some in the know, they still say the old big box pump and mercury level BP meters are most accurate, along with the doctor with a stethescope measuring your pulse there n then.

[mugenfoo]

A real sub should not be heard so much but to be felt instead.

Humans do not hear frequencies below 20hz but they can feel them.

If you want a sub to feel the bass, then get one that do not output above 20hz or cross it below 20hz. Anything above 20hz then you will hear and also feel them unless you are deaf.

There is no such thing as sub should be felt but not heard unless your restrict it to below 20hz where almost 99.999% music do not have any frequencies within that range. In principle, in this case, you can see and feel ( knowing that you have a sub) the presence of the subwoofer but it is not doing anything.

I said that "it should not be heard so much", not "totally not to be heard ".
This means ... the hearing part is only a portion of it, but the feeling part is more significant.

If you take some time to properly read the postings, then you wont jump to so much wrong conclusions.

And BTW, average Humans CAN hear below 20Hz (albeit at much reduced sensitivites, hence the Fletcher-Munson curves or the updated ISO 226:2003 curves). The 20Hz measurement limit was imposed because back in the early part of the 20th century, Misters Fletcher & Munson did not have a decent apparatus to generate, nor measure 20Hz reliably for their human hearing tests.

Now lets move on ...

p.s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound
Human reactions to infrasound
Twenty Hz is considered the normal low frequency limit of human
hearing. When pure sine waves are reproduced under ideal conditions and
at very high volume, a human listener will be able to identify tones as
low as 12 Hz.^[15] Below 10 Hz it is possible to perceive the single cycles of the sound, along with a sensation of pressure at the eardrums.


Ref. [15]: ^ Olson, Harry F. (1967). Music, Physics and Engineering. Dover Publications. p. 249. ISBN 0486217698.

[sflam]

musicmusic wrote:

If you want a sub to feel the bass, then get one that do not output above 20hz or cross it below 20hz. Anything above 20hz then you will hear and also feel them unless you are deaf.

There is no such thing as sub should be felt but not heard unless your restrict it to below 20hz where almost 99.999% music do not have any frequencies within that range.

when u play a cd or sacd with a system that has a sub-woofer and cross it below 20Hz, you will hear or feel nothing from the sub-woofer simply because the cd or sacd will contain no data below 20Hz.

so it's not that "99.999% of music does not have any frequencies within that range".

It's just that 100% of cds and sacds will have no signal below 20Hz.

it is only when you use the sound system with sub-woofer for movies - dvds and blurays - that you will get the low frequency effects (lfe) which go below 20Hz and the sub-woofer will deliver sound waves that you probably cannot hear but can definitely feel - dinosaur's footsteps, jets taking off, bomb blasts, etc.

in real life, some musical instruments will go below 20Hz. for e.g. the church organ which can go down to 16Hz.

[mugenfoo]

It's just that 100% of cds and sacds will have no signal below 20Hz.

brader Lam, actually this isn't true. Not even by a whisker. There are alot of CD recordings with plenty of subsonics. Could be that your system is masking them and leaving them out of the whole picture. But a simple test is to play a CD with known subsonics (go borrow some discs from your esteemed colleague, u know who), remove the speaker grilles and observe the cone movements. As long as u can see a slow motion back and forth, those are definitely sub 20Hz signals already. But just in case as a disclaimer, please don't listen to music by staring at the woofer cones like this lah...

[sflam]

brother foo,



i m a bit confused here. redbook specs state 20Hz to 22.05kHz for cds

and sacd specs state 20Hz to 50kHz.



so i m not sure where the sub-20Hz signals are coming from.



if u spin vinyl, it's a different story. yes there are below 20Hz signals in the grooves.

[mugenfoo]

look, the 20-20KHz is just another marketing figure. Don't get suckered by all these "manufacturer's specs" and such. You can't write a review about a speaker or piece of equipment just by reading off the manual's Technical Specifications page, right ?

OF COURSE a 16bit/44.KHz stream is more than capable to encode a DC signal. In fact, it can do so with perfect resolution and be impervious to jitter problems anyway, because at DC signals, jitter simply just does not matter anymore. Just imagine a ruler straight line as a signal output.

But the proof is always in the pudding. Go talk to your colleague (u know who and ask him). If our friend mr. lowfreq-birdie is not avail, lemme know and i will pinjam you this particular CD entitled "Sonic Booms". Guarranteed native redbook "compact disc" certified recording, but with enough subsonics to permanently fuse your woofer coils if you crank up the volume high enough.



http://www.stereophile.com/recordingofthemonth/recording_of_december_1989_isonic_boomsi/index.html

[musicmusic]

And BTW, average Humans CAN hear below 20Hz (albeit at much reduced sensitivites, hence the Fletcher-Munson curves or the updated ISO 226:2003 curves). The 20Hz measurement limit was imposed because back in the early part of the 20th century, Misters Fletcher & Munson did not have a decent apparatus to generate, nor measure 20Hz reliably for their human hearing tests.

Obviously, you do not know what the revision was all about....... LOL LOL

[mugenfoo]

Obviously, you do not know what the revision was all about....... LOL LOL

There you go again .... having naught an ounce of useful contribution anywhere. Seriously man, you have not demonstrated any SINGLE useful information or experience anytime, anywhere whatsoever with no one else to back up all your noise. So you are just all alone here with your own ramblings and idle chatter, very sad indeed.

[sflam]

brother foo,



looks like u r right. i have been googling around searching for answers and guess what i found?



this is from another forum:



The CD standard permits bandwith down to DC.

On CD players often have HP filter implemented to eliminate risk of putting constant DC to amplifier.
Look at spec on CD player, they often have bandwith down to 5-10Hz. Lower cutoff also depends on input imput impedance of aftercoming amplifier.
Some CD players have DC connected stages but instead have DC servo that need some kind of cutoff freq to be able to center output to DC in resonable time. Of course it is possible to have much lower cutoff with less cap value this way.




also, i found this from the marantz cd 5004 specs.



marantz cd5004


Specifications

AUDIO SECTION

Format 16-Bit Linear PCM, MP3, WMA

Sampling Frequency CD:44.1kHz, MP3/WMA:32,44.1,48kHz

Dynamic Range 100dB

Frequency response 2Hz - 20kHz

THD 0.002%

S/N Ratio 110dB

[mugenfoo]

brother foo,



looks like u r right. i have been googling around searching for answers and guess what i found?

Spoiler:

Lam, its not about being right or wrong ... it's about knowing the facts. Glad that you realised it and later is better than never.

Also, Googling-around is no substitute for real-world experience (although it can be a source of plentiful info & knowledge, as long as you know how to filter the facts from the BS).

[htkaki]

Talking about sub, I tested the above (BD) this evening. Stupendous, walls shattering deep powerful bass. Good for those 'fengtau' gang.

Suddenly, my HT room is like a bass filled dance floor.

WongKN, I shall let you play with the Rythmik F12 sub (goes down to 14Hz) after bassraptor finished with it.

[car o scope]

Talking about sub, I tested the above (BD) this evening. Stupendous, walls shattering deep powerful bass. Good for those 'fengtau' gang.

Suddenly, my HT room is like a bass filled dance floor.

WongKN, I shall let you play with the Rythmik F12 sub (goes down to 14Hz) after bassraptor finished with it.

Got papa americano inside ah? (with the head shaking move)

[htkaki]

Papa Americannot's bass is lousy lah. It's downright puny if compare to those fellas in Hard Bass. I wonder how could they withstand such powerful ULF there. I bet it's deafeningly loud, heart pounding and ground shaking at the venue.

[mugenfoo]

Talking about sub, I tested the above (BD) this evening. Stupendous, walls shattering deep powerful bass. Good for those 'fengtau' gang.

Suddenly, my HT room is like a bass filled dance floor.

WongKN, I shall let you play with the Rythmik F12 sub (goes down to 14Hz) after bassraptor finished with it.

That gives an idea !
Those so called "hard bass" also is puny compared to some real world no-BS superlative events.

So OK, next round .. lets try the Sonic Booms (SR-71 Blackbird flyby) and Sonic Booms Vol.2 (Space Shuttle Atlantis launch) CDs at your system...

[htkaki]

I have a audio recording. IIRC, it is called 'finale'. It is a recording of fireworks display. If your sub is good enough, you can actually feel the fireworks exploding away and the sound of fireworks is just awesome. If you do not have a good sub, it is best to avoid this track.

[mugenfoo]

then lets stick back to this lah .... for car-o-scope!

https://youtu.be/PcjaLW91sCQ

[htkaki]

then lets stick back to this lah .... for car-o-scope!

https://youtu.be/PcjaLW91sCQ

[WongKN]

The ultimate bass sound I have heard is the firing of a 155mm howitzer by the Royal Malaysian Army. Can never forget the impact of the sound. No hifi system in the world will ever be able to reproduce the sound.

[wingman]

The ultimate bass sound I have heard is the firing of a 155mm howitzer by the Royal Malaysian Army. Can never forget the impact of the sound. No hifi system in the world will ever be able to reproduce the sound.

kaBOOOOmmmm...he he...and a few more on the more docile tone....the purrr of a beemer...on a slow cruze or Ferrari ....on a roll after paying toll...phew such sweet tones... especially the California...wow


To me whether it's with or without the 20's requency range, just simply enjoy the Bass from the Cd's or the LP's that i play for the session. My favourite is Joe Cocker's LP....suits my set up.




cheers

[uncle_vic]

Now that there is enough information to convince that there are actually l'great mystery of low hz" below 20Hz even from a redbook CD. Here is something that many may not know.........there are 2 types of subwoofers in the market, one that caters down to a comfortable 30hz or even to 20hz and another type of subwoofer that caters down to below 20hz and to whatever limit that the manufacturers could attain, and there are not many manufacturers that have gone into that 'twilight zone'!

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul02/articles/subwoofers.asp




What Is A Subwoofer?



The term 'subwoofer' has two common
interpretations. The first describes a low-frequency system that takes
over below the cutoff of the main speaker's bass unit -- I shall refer
to this as type A. The second, and perhaps more relevant in the
professional audio arena, describes a low-frequency system that takes
over below the main speaker's bass frequency limit, and continues down
to at least the 20Hz hearing limit and preferably below (a type of
signal content commonly referred to as sub-bass although, strictly
speaking, signals below 20Hz should be called infra-bass or
infra-sound.) -- I shall call this type B.

[uncle_vic]

The vast majority of the subwoofers
currently on sale are type A. This type encompasses the more dubious
domestic hi-fi and home cinema units, as well as those found in some car
audio applications. The specification for h

The band-pass speaker construction and its typical frequency response. It is possible to create a flatter frequency response (lower graph) at the design stage, but this can only be done at the expense of efficiency.

ome theatre subs calls for a 30Hz bass response, but
this is ignored by many budget manufacturers. Many people believe that a
unit capable of extreme Sound Pressure Levels (SPLs) at around 50Hz is a
subwoofer. This is not only incorrect, but has also resurrected the
series of complaints (such as 'one note bass' and so forth) that started
in the early days of ported speaker design.

It is very easy to understand why this
type of unit is commonplace. It is technically straightforward to
produce units generating high SPLs above 40Hz or so. It is also easy to
generate high levels over very small bandwidths. The real challenge is
to produce a unit with high output over a broad bandwidth and in an
acceptable size. Due to the laws of physics, this becomes increasingly
difficult as frequency falls.

Speakers of type B are available by
only a few manufacturers. To generate low-frequency audio at
moderate-to-high SPLs, you need to move a lot of air. This requires
large-surface-area drivers, large-displacement drivers, high power
levels, or a combination of all of these. These factors combine to make
true subwoofers one of the more expensive items in the audio chain.

[htkaki]

The current lossless audio in BD (LPCM, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master Audio) takes a big leap in AQ compares to those lossy audio. Now, many movies have LFE well below 20Hz.

In US, subs that can go below 20Hz are like hot cakes. Elemental Design, Seaton, SVS, Hsu Research, Rythmik Audio are the popular ID brands in US.

Just as an example :



Now, you do not have to pay an arm and a leg to get a sub that could dive below 20Hz. WongKN's sub can hit 18Hz. There's a sub at RM3,299 that could go down to a low 14Hz with usable output.

[junchoon]

if money no object, what about TRW-17 from Eminent Tech?







http://www.rotarywoofer.com/





wps

[musicmusic]

There you go again .... having naught an ounce of useful contribution anywhere. Seriously man, you have not demonstrated any SINGLE useful information or experience anytime, anywhere whatsoever with no one else to back up all your noise. So you are just all alone here with your own ramblings and idle chatter, very sad indeed.

Confirmed! You don’t know anything about the 2003 revision. Main tembak from Wikipedia. LOL!!!

Don’t you know, we don’t call Fletcher- Munson curve but Equal Loudness Contours?





No one else to back me up? So be it! I am here not on a ego trip. Maybe, I would get some supporters if I mentioned about Nyquist theorem in every other post. 

But yaloh...kind of lonely without support and red marks.

I said that "it should not be heard so much", not "totally not to be heard ".

Can you explain how that is possible? If you don’t want to hear so much then the only way is to increase the loudness level below 20hz . But is that an accurate representation of a recording?

[mugenfoo]

Don’t you know, we don’t call Fletcher- Munson curve but Equal Loudness Contours?

Well, you might just as well call it the "music-music" curve if it tickles your fancy.

No one else to back me up? So be it! I am here not on a ego trip.

No one thinks its an ego trip except yourself, but it just ends up
exposing your own ignorance in a great many topics including this one, and for everyone else to see.

And since your limited knowledge seems to be confined to what u can google-up and find on wikipedia only, here's some coming back at you.

(Re-post)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound
Human reactions to infrasound
Twenty Hz is considered the normal low frequency limit of human
hearing. When pure sine waves are reproduced under ideal conditions and
at very high volume, a human listener will be able to identify tones as low as 12 Hz.^[15] Below 10 Hz it is possible to perceive the single cycles of the sound, along with a sensation of pressure at the eardrums.


Ref. [15]: ^ Olson, Harry F. (1967). Music, Physics and Engineering. Dover Publications. p. 249. ISBN 0486217698.

[adrian4454]

Hi HTkaki and WongKN,

Can give the model name and estimated cost of the Sub that you guys suggesting, dive to at least 18Hz.. Man, this is getting me itch over the things I can't listen to..

Maybe the next wish list for me is a subwoofer..

[uncle_vic]

Adrian, try listen to some setups with top of the range subwoofers from brands that specialise in making subwoofers. U may get an idea if u really do need subwoofers that really really go down very very low. I'm not saying/suggesting u shouldn't get those 'terror' subwoofers. It will be an experience listening to different types of subwoofers. The other thing is most intended users missed out is learn "How to tune the damn thing!" It's an art, a skill, a listening ability all rolled into one!

[mugenfoo]

Rel, SVS, Velodyne are quite reputable brands.

As for tuning, aside from a good ear, some Spectrographic software on a laptop and a calibrated mic would also be very useful.

Oh, and a test tone generator and how to rig it up to the system as well.

[Hi-Fi 4 Sale]

Guys,

Proper decorum, please. You may disagree philosophically, but no personal criticisms, please.

Thank you.

[WongKN]

Adrian, I am using the SVS lowest model cylindrical sub. I think it is PCB-12 or something like that. For tuning, this is one of the reasons why I bought my Marantz SR-5005 AV amp - it has Audyssey built in which I use to set-up the whole 5.1 speakers.

[adrian4454]

Thanks Guys!



Hi WongKN, Does RM2k make the deal?

Cheapskate like me been thinking of sub RM1k thing..



Dont taruk me ok.

[mugenfoo]

Well, the RM1K sub would probably be in unker Vic's "Type-A" sub classification....

But dun worry, we all got to start somewhere , right ?

[WongKN]

Adrian,

Nola, I am not the taruhing kind of guy.
Unfortunately 2k is not going to make it. More like around double.... I know, quality unfortunately DO come at a price.

Please note that this is for HT/AV use. Even the Maxx brothers will tell you that the sub cannot be used for hifi.

Sub-1k you must look at the used market. Actually you should contact the Maxx brothers to see if there are any used SVS subs, traded in by people upgrading for e.g. Or maybe a 'bayaran mudah' scheme ?

The improvement to HT/AV from an excellent sub like an SVS (and no doubt others as well) cannot be put down in words. You need to experience it. Once. And you will never turn back. Best to be using Blu-Ray for its loseless hi-res soundtracks but good DVDs will also benefit.

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