upgrade MC Phono or add MC transformer

For turntable setup, which is a better choice, 
1. just upgrade to a better phono stage or 
2. add a MC transformer to the existing phono stage.
No chance to compare both, so hope the forum is able to help,

Hi Sari...

Was in a similar crossroads. After much reading and research. Went with a better phono stage with variable loading capabilities for MM / MC.

Currently have two Phonostage one being Musical Fidelity driving a MC cart ( the standard phonostage with MM/MC capability)  and the second being Frank Accoustics 22L ( adjustable option on loading with MM/MC capability) driving a Ortofon MM Cart.

cheers

Hi wingman
may i ask hows the frank 22L drivng mc carts compared to the MF?
tq

Hi Sari,
The answer is dependent on the ancillary equipment you are using.  The turntable, arm and cartridge needs to be maxed out otherwise you will not realize the full potential of the phono stage.  So pray tell what system are you using or planning to use the SUT/MM phono or MC/MM phono? Also some cartridges benefit from a head amp due synergy eg Denon HA500 with the DL103R though it also can sing when paired with s SUT/phono. 

I am running a BM Glider SL through a Pipit 22L. It's mounted on an Linn Sondek/Harbans Plinth/cirkus/NAPSA/Ittok LVII.  Sounds gorgeous. 

In comparison I also run a denon DL103R mounted on a Fons CQ30 with SME3009.  This is fed through a denon HA500 head amp and the MM phono stage on Naim Nait 1.  Very musical though I doubt am getting the best from the DL103R due arm may not be high mass enough.

Hi Boxer...

Upfront, both have their advantages and with minimal negatives. 

The FA22L is driving a Ortofon OM5E (mind u it's an entry level cart) and what I am hearing is musical, clarity and warmth on a LP12 RB700 arm.

While the MF X-LP phono has similar in characteristics with a tinge of sharpness. A good thing I suppose as the MC cart is giving me more detail & separation on a Rega P3-24 RB303 arm.

Overall.... FA22L has been in my stable for the past 1.5 years and the MF X-LP was introduce into my setup a few days back. ( bought it after lots of research )

Will switch the phonostage place to hear the difference. My upfront view (hopefully    )...FA22L connected to P3-24 with the MC cart is most probably going to blow my expectations wide open.....will tweak the FA22L with the standard MC cart loading configuration as what's in the MF X-LP. ( an apple to apple comparison )  Will share the comparison results.

To me personally FA22L can stand toe to toe with some other high end phonostages. The MF X-LP does not shy away from belting out its best as well. All in all...to me & my better half... it's a worth while purchase.

Hope that helps in answering ur question.

Cheers

Thank you all for the guidance. I am currently using a clearaudio emotion, satisfy tone arm and a clearaudio mc concept cartridge. Phono is a clearaudio basic. There is a very huge different when this same set up was pair with a allnic phono stage, especially in the separation, staging and details.

To run a SUT in your current set up you would have to procure not only the SUT but also a competent MM phono stage. SUT sound great through valve MM magnet phono stage. Therefore it would be more cost effective for you to invest in a new better MC phono stage.  But if you have lots of cash to burn nothing stopping you going the SUT/MM phono route.

Hi Sari...

Don't rush... Take ur time...understand whats the best route... Took me about two years to get where my setup is today... Lots of reading... Gathering opinions from fellow TT owners.

There is no best approach but what suits ur ears and wallet. And one needs to draw the line...as this has a rolling effect...

May i also suggest you take a holistic approach and appraise your entire disc playing system rather then just the phonostage.  With respect, i am not putting you down, but your Emotion is a budget offering from Clearaudio and you might not be getting the best from MC.  I suspect you might get better sound with a good MM like an Ortofon 2M Black. You can explore options to upgrade your source to higher models in the Clearaudio range or others like Rega (RP8 and above), Linn or Michell. Or you could seek out and refurbish some good vintage spinners from Garrard, Lenco or Thorens. Pair with a good arm and cartridge and you are in audio nirvana. Or you could decide to stay with the Emotion. Accept its limitations and pair it with a good MM and MM phonostage.

What i am saying is there are many roads to Rome.  You might not be on the right road but you have time and you can check out the nice scenery on the way.  Enjoy the journey!

MC Step up transformers can be touch or miss affair due to the following reasons when its implemented blindly, without any research or understanding of how it works.

1. Impedance match is a fundamental requirement. Its not adjustable with dip switches but maybe provided with different primary tapping to match nearest compatibility. Its basically a high gain but precision wound transformer, just as it was used for microphones and an important component in a studio mixer till pure electronic stages became a more cost effective solution. Microphone transformers have been a sunset industry, very few manufacturers in this line. MC cartridges come with a wide array of internal impedances anything from 2ohm to 45ohms in general. This is an issue with different makes of SUT. Its not as simple as MC phono is 100ohm, just plug & play. We're dealing with transformer inductance and not electronic RC impedance requirement. 
2. Microphone transformers, deemed suitable in practice but not all suitable for MC cartridges due to different impedance match.
A microphone and MC cartridges are moving coil devices but built with different impedance.
Its not always right to think high priced vintage mic transformers are among the best that money can buy and offer better performance than purposely built MC SUT in the market, new or vintage included. Those kind may work or seem to satisfy some users but in reality its not electrically compatible at impedance level, primary and secondary. Its purely coincidental that some vintage can amaze the owner finding it better performing that what he apparently used before. That's their opinion and cannot imagine what they're actually listening to. Its a possibility they found such vintage that could match or nearest the impedance requirement of cartridge and MM phono stage they're using. Those are a rarity.
3. Purposely built and current production MC SUT can be found among Denon, Ortofon, Hashimoto, and Cinemag. MC gain range from 10X to 30X which is compatible to most MM phono stages at 40db gain. Desirable total gain from MC to line level would be from 55db to 75db. Although I find 70-75 db MC total gain for good performance without compromising or degrading the sonic quality at line level.
4. When selecting an SUT there's some mathematical calculation to be done by inputting various parameters from cartridge spec and SUT spec to determine the estimated voltage output on the secondary winding. Its never to be simply thought that input 0.4uV = 12uV at 30X gain. This isn't true. I use a specially formatted and Excel sheet with formulas, input the parameters and it'll show the scenario of the likely result.
5. MC SUT aren't made equal. Its not that simple. Different makes offer different sonic quality. Its given parameters and type of cartridge in play all contribute and determent different results, different output volume level, different dynamics, thinner, thicker, dense, less dense sound, etc, etc.
Ok..I hope all my views above make sense. Hope you all can find one that hit the right note.
Meanwhile, on a personal basis, I use a MC SUT at 30X gain, 45db MM phono and totally satisfied with its performance throughout or whatever I throw at it. Of course I've friends who seem to insist they don't like what they hear and nitpick all sorts. That's their problem, not mine.

sari wrote:Thank you all for the guidance. I am currently using a clearaudio emotion, satisfy tone arm and a clearaudio mc concept cartridge. Phono is a clearaudio basic. There is a very huge different when this same set up was pair with a allnic phono stage, especially in the separation, staging and details.

I am not sure which Allnic phono stage model you tried, but they are overkill for Concept MC cart.  Based on reviews and my own experience, Rogue Audio Ares is a very good mid-priced phono stage.  Built-in SUT, adjustable gain and loading, and pretty much can work with all cartridges.  Later down the road when you want to upgrade to a better cartridge, you will not be limited by the phono stage.

Money is definitely an issue. I do realize the emotion has its limitation but would like to exploit its full potential. So I am more incline to take Anwar's route where i can still use the phono if i upgrade the turntable later.

As mentioned by others, your chances of improving the sound are with a better phono electronics, rather than adding a SUT to the existing setup for the obvious reasons mentioned. Since you are already using a decent MC, a good bet would be to get a MC only phono pre amp. Preferably one with flexibility in loading and gain settings to dial-in the best match with your existing system.

Anyone has a good suggestion for MC phono. Dealers in Penang don't stock phono or only have limited choice.

There are too many choices/models for hifi shops to stock, hence it is just not practical.  You decide what you want, then ask the Penang hifi shop to order for you.  Or go to KL and buy directly from importers or dealers which stock the model you like.

sari wrote:Anyone has a good suggestion for MC phono. Dealers in Penang don't stock phono or only have limited choice.

what's your budget?