Harbeth Designer Alan Shaw In KL on 3rd-6th May

We are pleased to inform that Harbeth designer Alan Shaw will be coming to KL on the first week of May next month. This will be his first visit to Malaysia which is long overdue.

Arrival in KL 3rd May(via changeover in Singapore) and departure from KL 6th May to Singapore before returning to Hong Kong on 9th May.

Our friendly(some may consider eccentric) Harbeth dealer Sam Chan will be arranging a get-together solely for Harbeth customers. He will confirm on date of meeting and venue in due time.

ryder wrote:

Our friendly(some may consider eccentric) Harbeth dealer Sam Chan will be arranging a get-together solely for Harbeth customers. He will confirm on date of meeting and venue in due time.

Please keep me informed.

Well, many may consider Sam as eccentric, he is actually a very kind man.

Don't worry, Sam will notify all by sms. In case he missed out anyone this post serves as a backup for Harbeth users.

Meeting session to be held on 4.05.10 at Saujana Hotel, Zamrud room, 7.00pm-10.00pm.

unfortunately i cant attend the meeting despite being invited. Ryder, can i ask you a favor? please update me on whatever happen there.

No problem Lamkochai. Will try to see if we can get some photos and get them posted on the HUG. Cheers.

Gents,

Will the session be strictly be for 'Harbethers' ... Any possibility of others to attend, perhaps can 'convert' us by the session.

Cheers,

zb

Btw, I wouldn't call Sam eccentric, perhaps 'passionate' of his trade & craft.. had the pleasure of listening to the Harbeths at the KLIAV shows before and is friendly and a real gentlemen..

ryder wrote:No problem Lamkochai. Will try to see if we can get some photos and get them posted on the HUG. Cheers.

Don't forget to HUG him in the photos, and remember to label your name Mr. Texxx while posting it on HUG

When introducing yourself, try to greet Mr. Shaw with [Ni Hao], because he used to learn Chinese

Hi Zeebee, maybe you would want to contact Sam directly if there is interest to participate in the function. He needs to control the amount of people attending the simple gathering as there can be a lot of people who want to join, and the number of people attending the function needs to be controlled to avoid an over-packed crowd. So far there were reports that more than 100 persons have confirmed attendance. Feel free to contact Sam as there have been a few non-Harbeth users who contacted him personally to attend the function.

For any Harbeth users who were not informed or had been missed out, please contact Sam directly for a place of reservation.

ryder wrote:Meeting session to be held on 4.05.10 at Saujana Hotel, Zamrud room, 7.00pm-10.00pm.

How goes the meeting?

Some of the proceedings were reported in the hi-fi-avenue blogspot..

Overall it was a nice and enjoyable session having to meet Alan in person. He is a nice down-to-earth person and the evening turned out to be a memorable one for both Harbeth fans/users and Alan himself.

Although we arrived pretty early at 7.00pm, there were some early birds who were already in the room which include the renowned LS35a guru Jo-Ki and Dick Tan. When more people turned up, Alan started to approach and greet all of us in a friendly English way. He gave us a brief insight on how the early Harbeth speakers with the Audax drivers evolved to the current models with Radial drivers, and the difficulty in getting the foreign suppliers to meet target dates so as production would not be jeopardised.

We then proceeded for tea before the main Q&A session.

Several questions that were presented to Alan during the question and answer session are whether there would be any plans for a Harbeth floorstander-obviously not, any recommended speaker stands for Harbeth- some telephone directories would do, which model in the Harbeth line is Alan's favourite - *scratching head* all are good in their own ways, views on wires, accessories, brass links etc. - no comment.

A question on how Harbeth was designed to reproduce bass, it was mentioned that the whole box enclosure together with the 8" driver act as whole unit in reproducing the bass. A tongue-in-cheek was a response to a question on Harbeth speakers' performance in rock music. Alan jokingly mentioned that the Americans listen to synthetic music in their homes most of the time and don't seem to know how to appreciate the beauty and essence of natural acoustic music. To summarise, the Harbeths are not the best speakers for pop, rock and metal but for other genres there are few that can match the sheer musicality and quality of the speakers.

Alan again stressed on why Harbeth were so adamant in not promoting exotic amplifiers, expensive tweaks and accessories on their speakers at the expense of losing potential customers. The Harbeth philosophy emphasises highly on value engineering and as such, snake oil in the audio industry does not have a place in their book. They consider the younger generation as the ones that will determine the future of the audio world as most teenagers now are more into ipod and downloading music from the internet etc. The niche market may see a reversal if interest is not instilled in these teenagers to get them into the audio world without too much hindrance especially with the plethora of audio myths around.

It was highlighted that Harbeth's financial position is strong as they keep getting orders from all over the globe. Sales were so good that they are having a tough time keeping up with some of the orders, one of them include from Korea which the orders have backlogged up to year 2012(if I heard it correctly). They are currently running at full capacity in coping up with the orders and delivering them to customers who have ordered, no time to look at any other issues(don't blame Sam if he doesn't have any speakers left in his storeroom). Hence they are not concerned of going against some of the audio misconceptions being practiced by some quarters at the expense of losing potential customers due to their strong position.

At the end of the session most fanatic fans swarmed Alan to get some photographs. Overall it was a pretty enjoyable session and thanks to Sam for making the event possible.

http://hi-fi-avenue.blogspot.com/

Nice report Ryder. You got it spot on. Alan makes a lot of sense. Most times we are hell bent on looking for 'improvements' through various snake oil tweaks and arguing on the pros and cons of small things like biwiring, power cords and magic bricks when the fact of the matter is that the industry is heading to a sunset with the onslaught of the ipod generation.
If this new generation is not exposed to appreciate music through means other than crappy ear phones, there wont be an industry to talk about in 10 years time. Its a shame, instead of simplifying and opening up to new consumers, the hifi industry seems hell bent to scaring punters away with complicated jargon and unnecessary equipment.

Thanks Sam... great show. Honoured to be invited for talk cock beer session later with Alan. Got home at about 1am!! hahaha

Nice meeting u guys too!

Hi uncle vic, I did not know that you were there, else I would love to meet you in person. I consider you an audiophile of a different kind, one who gets to audio nirvana not by changing cables, amplifiers and whatnot. I think you are an endangered species of a kind.

My first impression of Alan Shaw is that he's got a BIG head. Later I realized it was his slim and well toned body that made it appeared so. I was so accustomed to seeing sick and obese westerners that a healthy body appears exceptional nowadays. It was pleasing to see Alan applies the same type of discipline that created a legend in the audio industry to other aspects of his life.

Anyway it was a memorable evening for me. I did not stayed till 1.am - as there are other commitments that I had to attend to as reflected by my age. But I got plenty out of the evening, enough to kept me thinking a week later. Many thanks to Sam for the efforts in organizing the event.

Perhaps the most poignant moment for me was when Alan was relating to us about a meeting he had with the Japanese. In the mist of it he suddenly realized that he was making some claims that he could not substantiate. He got into a state of panic - what it the Japanese were to ask: "Alan san - can you please proof ...".

From that point on Alan said he made sure that he never made any claims that can be demonstrated and repeated anywhere on earth. Those of us who frequent the Harbeth User Group would know that Alan never bullshit. He even refrain from using the common audiophile terms that cannot be objectively defined - like PRaT, musical sounding, analytical sounding etc, but yet he was able to churn out enormous amount of fascinating information over a wide range of subjects. I think Alan was fortunate that he inherited a wealth of information
from decades of BBC research involving some of the best minds in audio
engineering.

Below are some quotable quotes:

"No, I don't have Hi-fi at home. I only have radios all over the places. I don't listen to Hi-fi. It is work for me..." We all know that he was joking. But it brought home the difference approach to sound between a speaker designer and a casual music lover. Sound reproduction is serious work for him.

"I know nothing about speaker stand, ask Sam, he is the expert." But Alan did mention the axis of dispersion of the tweeter was set slightly higher, to the level of the top edge of the speaker (if I recalled correctly). This is because optimally the ear should be at the level of the tweeter axis. The axis was raised so that the speaker stand need not be too high to give it more stability.

"I know nothing about cables. Ask Sam - he is the expert".

"I know nothing about amplifier. Ask Sam - he is the expert. I am still using the amplifiers that I brought 30 years ago, of course I service them regularly". Is it Quad? Well - he wouldn't say yes or no.

Hi Yee, well i met up with derek, Lam sf, Sam hy, Chew kw, chan, Lim sg, and others. Some of them already know me from many years ago, so it was easy for them to spot me and introduce me to others.

I was sitting at the table with Chew KH, Jo Ki and km Ng. U know which table la.

There are other events coming, we will meet up for sure.

Isn't Harbeth for professionals? Meant for monitoring but not for listening music?

musicmusic wrote:Isn't Harbeth for professionals? Meant for monitoring but not for listening music?

The stickers on the back of my Harbeth say: Hi-Fi/AV BROADCAST MONITOR.

I was told they cannot rock..just ordinary speakers to listen music . not high end.

Can someone please define high end!

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar = High End

Proton, Kelisa, Naza Kia = Not High End

The same analogy applies to music reproduction.

Bite wrote:Can someone please define high end!

Burns a big hole in your pocket, get you in debt, get you caught in an endless loop of upgrades, and ruin your marriage.

But seriously - Harbeth is the type of well made gear that you buy and appreciate - and forget about upgrading for at least the next 10 years.

It is very good value for money. It sells via words of mouth. I am simply happy that I have a system that gave me a lot of enjoyment with down to earth money. Who cares whether it is high end or not.

examples and potential effects but no definition

Just google.....free of charge mah.

Bite and musicmusic... most harbeth owners dont really care about whether it is high end, low end or whatever end. Most of us are quite a contented bunch and upgrades tend to be newer harbeths..
Most importantly, enjoyment of music.

You think the gears you see on display in any of the hi-fi shop are high end? Not even close. Take a look:

http://www.higherfi.com/spkrlist/speakerlist.htm

Harbeth lovers are a bunch of down-to-earth guys who simply enjoy our music. Who cares about high ends?

The designer himself said their speakers are no good for rock n roll and electric guitar so how can Harbeth play most music?

musicmusic wrote:The designer himself said their speakers are no good for rock n roll and electric guitar so how can Harbeth play most music?

In contrast to amplifiers - where the basic design and components used has not changed much for the past 30 years, speakers is a completely different story altogether.

With speakers you have the thick walled concept, the thin walled concept, ported, unported, the organ pipe resonance tube, horn speaker, soft domed tweeter, ribbon tweeter, paper cone, polypropylene, Kevlar, aluminum, carbon fiber, wood, radial, ...

Not all speakers are created equal. I used to think that the differences between a good speaker and a bad speaker is probably like difference between a good violin created by a master craftsman vs a mass produced violin for beginner learners. I realized the difference is more like between an acoustic guitar and an electric guitar!

So an aluminum cone will sound very different from that of Kevlar, which in turn will sound different from Harbeth Radial driver. Each material will add their 'signature' - or coloring to the sound.

The same is true for bass reproduction. One basic fact is that the speakers that fit our living room, with their 5", 8", 10" or 12" driver is not really big enough to move enough air to produce the low bass sounds. All them makes use of some tricks to create a make believe.

A thick walled cabinet makes use of the port to deliver the resonance of the speaker box to enhance its bass. Harbeth with its thin walled cabinet makes use of the vibration of the cabinet to enhance its bass.

The ported sound is rounded and solid, but the down side is that the port is tuned to one particular resonance frequency. The bass response will be very pronounced around this particular frequency, but falls off very quickly at both ends.

The think walled cabinet sound in contrast is diffused, warm, and full of texture, full of details. It is using the same sounding mechanism of acoustic instruments like the cello, piano etc. This is what makes it capable of producing the organic, life like sound of the instruments. The Harbeth cabinets are assembled by highly skilled craftsmen - and they sound beautiful like well tuned instruments.

A thick walled speaker will play acoustics instruments - but it will sound thin and lacking in details. A thin walled speaker will play pop music - but it will be lacking in some oomph factor, especially if played at pop concert insane level.

Bass reproduction is not hi-fi at all. It is mostly about make believe. But the human perception of bass sound is extremely crude. Research has shown than most people can't tell the difference even with 30% distortion.

So the choice is yours. I hated the thick walled ported sound. Harbeth's thin walls is definitely my choice. And Harbeth midrange clarity - that's a class on its own.

Uncle Yee .. can u better define your "30% distortion" please ?

And what research ? Got any links to share here ?

And have you possibly heard all the "thick walled" speakers in the world to conclude that all these speakers will "sound thin and lacking in details"? Besides , what's your definition of thick or thin wall?
how many mm of cabinet thickness is considered in the "thin range" and how many mm would be in the "thick range" ?

mugenfoo wrote: Besides , what's your definition of thick or thin wall?
how many mm of cabinet thickness is considered in the "thin range" and how many mm would be in the "thick range" ?

to answer yr question, here's alan shaw from the harbeth website:


What underpins the BBC's thin-wall cabinet philosophy (and I was surprised to read that exact word in one of Harwood's papers recently) is the observation that a perfectly cast bell will ring on for many seconds. Conversely, a bell with a hairline crack will sound leaden and hardly ring at all. It's the same with cabinets: if the panels are all rigidly glued together then at some critical frequency or other a note or notes in the music will trigger the cabinet's natural structural resonance. In such a rigid structure, there is nothing that can be done to suppress the ringing - and each time that note reappears, it tops up the ringing which then becomes a permanent drone underneath the music.

Conversely, in a thin-wall cabinet, the lossy joints (i.e. removable baffle/back and the generally 9-12mm thin panels used throughout the box) each act as an acoustic hairline crack. They inhibit the build-up of resonance. Simple as that really!

Now, let's not kid ourself that it is possible to kill cabinet resonance stone dead. It isn't. Not with any approach to cabinet design because the sound pressure inside the cabinet is huge. What the thin-wall approach does is to move unwanted resonances downwards in amplitude and frequency so that they are adequately buried below the music and then pushed down in pitch. Note that I said adequately. Providing that the resonance, be it from the cone, cabinet or even recording - whatever the source - is x dBs below the fundamental, the BBC proved that it was completely inaudible. Once inaudible to trained listeners on all types of music/speech, that is the end of the matter. Inaudible to the trained listener is as good as the solution needs to be. It is neither necessary nor cost effective (nor good engineering) to continue pushing for a degree of theoretical excellence that nobody can appreciate but everyone must pay for. That pragmatism keeps our speaker affordable - and sounding natural.

What we seem to be lacking in the industry today is the good old fashioned common sense that was abundant when serious researchers with zero commercial interest (i.e. the BBC) had their hands on the tiller. Thank goodness that they thoroughly documented their efforts for posterity since physics, acoustics and our hearing are the same now as fifty years ago. Now it seems we are all conditioned by marketeers to chase theoretical perfection which is far, far beyond what our ears can reliably resolve.

Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK

by musicmusic on Tue May 11, 2010 7:26 pm
The designer himself said their speakers are no good for rock n roll and electric guitar so how can Harbeth play most music?

There is something wrong with the quote function on this website as it cannot be accessed when the button is clicked.

In response to the designer's point of view, although most of his thoughts and philosophies are useful and informative, I suspect some are formed based on commercial reasons. For instance, Alan doesn't promote the importance of exotic amps on Harbeth speakers and regard them as unnecessary in producing good music. In fact he actually hates people advocating costly amps on the Harbeth. Of course not everyone shares the same view as my experience proves that the Harbeth although not as fussy as other speakers can sound lacklustre and uninspiring even with modest audio-grade amps due to their inherent warm character.

The reason why Harbeth are not supportive of folks recommending exotic amps, tweaks to a larger extent(mostly snake oils) on their speakers is because they want people to continue to enjoy music at a low cost without chasing the holy grail with all the myth in the audio industry. They are afraid that the younger generation may not venture into high-end audio and continue to listen to their ipods after getting discouraged by comments about Harbeth speakers needing some expensive equipment in sounding good. I suppose this is one of the commercial reasons why Harbeth are so adamant in not promoting exotic amps on the speakers.

Due to this fact Alan has never used exotic amps on his speakers, and he has reiterated this many times on the HUG. For this simple fact his comment about Harbeth not being able to rock is understandable. Been there, done that. With suitable amps the Harbeth will be able to play pop and rock better although they are not supposed to excel in these genres of music. As most have already known, rock is not Harbeth's forte but they can do an admirable job if driven properly by upfront and dynamic amps. The main strength of Harbeth is in their low-listening fatigue and a midrange that is to die for, at least for me.

Ok mugenfoo, here you are.

While it is has been recognized for years that human hearing is not very
sensitive to low bass frequencies, which must be reproduced with much
more power and intensity in order to be heard, what these results show
is that our detection threshold for “noise” (made up of
harmonically related and non-harmonically related test tones) is
practically non-existent at low frequencies. (The “noise” test
tones are noise in the sense that they are not musically related to
tones commonly found in musical instruments.) In fact, the
“noise” tones at 20 Hz and 40 Hz had to be increased to levels louder
than the music itself before we even noticed them.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html

Thin walled cabinet design - maybe can be generalized to mean anything that makes use of the cabinet as a sounding mechanism - for example the Harbeth speaker, my notebook casing, my RM 300 mini combo with its fiberboard speakers, USB speaker with its plastic casing. These speakers makes use of the casing/cabinet to gives volume to the sound. Not all of them are well tuned and sounds good. Some are that way by accident and not by design (for example the notebook casing). Some sounded downright shitty.

Thick walled cabinet design - thick heavy cabinet with heavy gluing and bracing to make it as silent as possible. But these cabinet do 'ring' at some frequency nevertheless.

And - I have not heard most of the speakers out there. I don't aspired to. I was simply glad to have came across Harbeth, with a sound that I love, and with a price that I am happy with. I am simply happy to leave the shop hopping days behind. Looking at the price tags of the equipments out there was not a pleasant experience for me.

CN Yee wrote:Ok mugenfoo, here you are.

While it is has
been recognized for years that human hearing is not very sensitive
to low bass frequencies, which must be reproduced with much more
power and intensity in order to be heard, what these results show is
that our detection threshold for “noise” (made up of harmonically
related and non-harmonically related test tones) is practically
non-existent at low frequencies. (The “noise” test tones
are noise in the sense that they are not musically related to tones
commonly found in musical instruments.) In fact, the “noise”
tones at 20 Hz and 40 Hz had to be increased to levels louder than
the music itself before we even noticed them.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html

Thin
walled cabinet design - maybe can be generalized to mean anything that
makes use of the cabinet as a sounding mechanism - for example the
Harbeth speaker, my notebook casing, my RM 300 mini combo with its
fiberboard speakers, USB speaker with its plastic casing. These speakers
makes use of the casing/cabinet to gives volume to the sound. Not all
of them are well tuned and sounds good. Some are that way by accident
and not by design (for example the notebook casing). Some sounded
downright shitty.

Thick walled cabinet design - thick heavy
cabinet with heavy gluing and bracing to make it as silent as possible.
But these cabinet do 'ring' at some frequency nevertheless.

And -
I have not heard most of the speakers out there. I don't aspired to. I
was simply glad to have came across Harbeth, with a sound that I love,
and with a price that I am happy with. I am simply happy to leave the
shop hopping days behind. Looking at the price tags of the equipments
out there was not a pleasant experience for me.

================================
ok, the quote boxes are still broken .. so here goes:

Well, however flawed the human hearing may be to some people, but there really is no reference measurement of audible distortion. If a person had served in an artillery unit for example, definitely don't expect to have "golden ears" when listening to equipment that do audio-reproduction. But that being said, it is not right to generalise that all humans, cannot tell the diff between "30%" distortion of whatever method of measurement. This is just plain silly. What you might not hear (or hear but the brain doesn't want to acknowledge ), doesn't mean that another fellow human would share your same malaise.

Also, its really hard to understand your points esp about 20Hz ~40Hz stuff ... If it was PART of the original musical score that was Recorded and Imprinted into some storage medium, then the playback mechanism should FAITHFULLY reproduce the 20Hz~40Hz signals. And lets not get into FM-curves issue now shall we, it only adds more irrelevancy to your points of discussion.

So what do u mean by "louder than the music itself" ? If its part of the music, its part of the music !
If its not, .. its not (& adding 6 subs also wont do jack in this case) !


Back to speaker cabinets:

Again, there is no generalisation of what really constitutes a truly thick or thin wall speakers. How about Planar magnetic or electrostatic speakers ? What "cabinet" category would these fall into then ? What about Horn-loaded speakers as well ?

Bu alas, as you've said it yourself that you've already discovered Harbeth as your holy grail already, there is no need to aspire anymore to go and hear anymore types of equipment.

Well uncle Yee, thanks for the clarifications, it is very obvious that you have found your audio nirvana already and thats well and fine for yourself. But as for the discussions, debates and the sharing and advancement of knowledge or experience on the art and science of audio reproduction, your position as stated above is pretty much self-defeating already.

Just to set the record straight, i quite admire Harbeth speakers as well. But definitely not for the reasons that you give.

As for the matter of Price Tags ... give u the benefit of doubt that we're not sour-grapes here , correct?

Allow me to make 2 assumptions:
Group H
People who are willing to pay at a pricepoint where the equipment is just good enough for their taste and allows them to access their music. Lets say, it sounds 99% good.

Group A
People who pursue hi-fi as an ultimate exercise in excellence. They're willing to pay any price for equipment which is state of the art as measured in the labs. Usually, but not always, it sounds 99.999% good.

Group H is not saying Group A is crazy, just that for them, they're happy and contented to find a manufacturer who is practical in its pursuit. Some Group H were previously Group A types, possibly.

Group A, I hope, can acknowledge and respect that not everyone is in Group A and should not assume all who read here is from Group A either. Possibly, some from Group H will become Group A when their wallets allow or when their 'hearing improves' etc. But really, is Group A superior to Group H? In my humble opinion, no.

I would say, a true Group A's actual competitor is himself. He challenges himself to seek greater accuracy and truth, but he doesn't rubbish those who for whatever reason, be it ignorance or inclination or practicality, does not share his goal.

Basically, to each his own as long as he is happy. Lets not preach or convert. If i may quote Winston Churchill, 'I'm always prepared to learn, but not always prepared to be taught'. I respect all you fellow audiophiles. Enjoy the music.

Have I missed the point?

Uncle Yee Said:

Bass reproduction is not hi-fi at all. It is mostly about make believe. But the human perception of bass sound is extremely crude. Research has shown than MOST people can't tell the difference even with 30% distortion.

Mugen Foo Replied:

But that being said, it is not right to generalise that ALL humans, cannot tell the diff between "30%" distortion of whatever method of measurement. This is just plain silly.

Comment:

Most is not all. But what is fact remains open.

Uncle Yee Said/Quoted:

our detection threshold for “noise” (made up of harmonically
related and non-harmonically related test tones) is practically
non-existent at low frequencies. (The “noise” test tones
are noise in the sense that they are not musically related to tones
commonly found in musical instruments.) In fact, the “noise”
tones at 20 Hz and 40 Hz had to be increased to levels louder than the music itself before we even noticed them.

Mugen Foo replied:

Also, its really hard to understand your points esp about 20Hz ~40Hz stuff ... If it was PART of the original musical score that was Recorded and Imprinted into some storage medium, then the playback mechanism should FAITHFULLY reproduce the 20Hz~40Hz signals. And lets not get into FM-curves issue now shall we, it only adds more irrelevancy to your points of discussion.

So what do u mean by "louder than the music itself" ? If its part of the music, its part of the music !


Comment:

Remember it was said, hifi is about creating an illusion in our home through 2 channnel playback. We hear what the recording engineer wants us to listen to, so it is not necessarily the case that what was recorded is what we listen to in our homes.

I read Uncle Yee's assertions to mean that at a certain frequencies "noise" is tactile and not heard as a musical tone. The recording engineer boosts the frequency/frequencies in the recording, higher than what was actually recorded to obtain the desired effect which I am assuming is a musical tone of sorts.

Mugen Foo said:

Well uncle Yee, thanks for the clarifications, it is very obvious that you have found your audio nirvana already and thats well and fine for yourself. But as for the discussions, debates and the sharing and advancement of knowledge or experience on the art and science of audio reproduction, your position as stated above is pretty much self-defeating already

Comment:

Not too sure of the point being made. From my liberal understanding, parties to a discussions, debates and sharing may not always share the same view nor have an open mind, on the issues at hand. It would be boring if we all think the same.

Frankly I see nothing wrong with Uncle Yee having found his audio nirvana. It would perhaps shape his views on certain issues concerning hifi and the market but he still has his views to be discussed and shared.

We may not all agree with his views but still worth hearing.

Until now neither has presented a case of what is fact over fiction.

I believe CN Yee in his usual self is making generalisations with thick vs thin walled cabinets and that bass reproduction is not hifi but make believe, just like his perception about all amps sounding similar ie. there won't be any difference between different grade of amps.

Frankly I don't know how the comment about bass reproduction has come by and what that means.

Yes, hifi is all make believe. Its how real can it mimick the original reference source point . And this is the matter which separates the good make-believe systems from the lousy make-believe systems.
Just like why people pay so much to buy a Pioneer Kuro vs a Haier Plasma TV. All the pictures on the flatscreen are make-believe anyways!


Lets have a little root-cause analysis here:

OK, who be the judge of whats a good make-believe systems vs. a bad make-believe systems?
It would be a combo of price/performance ratio.

And who best to decide which systems have the best price/performance ratio that determines the quality of the make-believe systems?
It would be those hifi reviewers, and long time veterans who have HEARD both live music and many a really good system (not necessarily their own) in their span of hifi journeys.

But for some people who would close their minds off to any of the above, they are really in no position to really put forth a stand on what constitutes a good or lousy make-believe system, but would end up making generalisations and baseless stereotypes instead.

For those people who pooh-pooh the "high price tag" make believe systems by giving any excuses that they are either intimidated by the price-tags or herald one particular type of brand, or whatever any other system over the rest is severely limited in knowledge, depth and understanding of this hifi make-believe game.

Back to the Plasma TV analogy:
If that person had never even bothered to see or experience a Pioneer Kuro in action, they would be perfectly contended with their Haier Plasma TV. But would you take their opinions to really hold water ? I'd think not...

[quote="VS126"]

<< In reply to a post earlier, I have two friends who is into open baffle
using single fullrange crossoverless drivers, ie 12" and 15" drivers

I will ask their permission to post their pictures here. I
understand they change from Harbeth 5HLs and Sonus Faber Electa Amator
bookshelf speakers.

I had a listen to it recently and their
tonality especially piano and vocals is very good. Bloody big sound and
seemless mids coz only one driver doing all the work and without the
crossover to mess up the sound.

No wander my friend gave up
their beloved Harbeths and Sonuses. >>

Facts and factors.

Well debate 无间狐！

For those people who pooh-pooh the "high price tag" make believe systems by giving any excuses that they are either intimidated by the price-tags or herald one particular type of brand, or whatever any other system over the rest is severely limited in knowledge, depth and understanding of this hifi make-believe game.

Concur on the above. Unfortunately some folks are still dissing the "high price tag" gears despite not having listened to them. Conclusions are derived before having first-hand experience, and that is the irony of it.

F8's comment is useful in the sense it makes no sense to argue on such trivial matters. The most important is to enjoy what we have and be happy with our systems.

So by MF's rational, only someone who is :

a. one of, "those hifi reviewers" or
b. "long time veterans who have HEARD
both live music and many a really good system (not necessarily their
own) in their span of hifi journeys".

are 'qualified' to "decide which systems have the best price/performance ratio that determines the quality of the make-believe systems?"

I suppose that takes Alan Shaw out of the equation of "qualified people". We have to disregard what he says and treat it like rubbish?

On the other hand, I have been fortunate to be a "hifi reviewer" for a weekly publication in the past, had the privilege to listen to a large variety of very expensive equipment which were not mine and had my fair share of live concerts etc. Does that make my views more right than others? If I agree with with Alan Shaw does it carry more weight than someone else who may not have had the opportunity to listen to exotic equipment? The analogy is absolute bollocks.

Disagree with a view? Go right ahead. That is why we are here for. The thread was kinda interesting until MF came up with the analogy above. Its really condescending. Just because one has found his "nirvana" he looses his right to comment... eh? Do you need to listen to an ultra exotic set up before you can form a view on something?

Kudos F8. You summarized it quite well... Live and let live.

Sure... anyone can form an opinion about anything.
Everyone's got an opinion about Brand-A, Brand-B or Brand-C stuff as well. So lets compare the opinions of the actual owners to come and tell their stories of ownership/experience vs. some other dude that just says... Oh, everyone knows that (put your XYZ brand here) are unreliable this and that, they need to run with air-cond room, they are sentitive to humidity, this design of a speaker will give that kind of sound, etc. Who's doing the preaching here? And whats their background that they can preach (let alone convert) when they openly state that they (not so much have found their audio nirvana, but more so) have taken an isolationist stand on all other aspects.

So going to more real-world analogies. nice big TVs. If you've always been contended with "Haier" flat screen. Good for you. But if you're gonna come and say that a "Pioneer Kuro" doesn't really make any diff, coz the general human eye can only see so much of this or that colours or light shades, etc etc etc.... thats the bollocks part. You can state your opinion, but anyone and everyone is free to retort. So its all a bunch of balls still and everybody Wank Chung tonight.

So everyone is free to live and let live, with or without the bollocks.
Anyone have the right to comment whether factual, logical or rethorical. Anyone else would also have the right to retort. Simple as that.

[quote="CN Yee"]

musicmusic wrote:A thick walled cabinet makes use of the port to deliver the resonance of the speaker box to enhance its bass. Harbeth with its thin walled cabinet makes use of the vibration of the cabinet to enhance its bass.

I just saw the picture of harbeth speaker with port. So that is thick walled Harbeth?

Can I summarize from the above arguments - Harbeth cannot rock but still good for whatever reasons, some people choose to like them?

musicmusic, my sincere advice to you is, take a short trip to Tropical Audio and listen to the Harbeths yourself. From there, form your own opinion. Yes please do bring along some rock CDs as well.

my sincere advice to you is, take a short trip to Tropical Audio and
listen to the Harbeths yourself. From there, form your own opinion.

Geez, my girlfriend told me exactly the same when I went around asking foremans and other owners opinion of Persona which I intended to buy.

Good point (to check out an actual Harbeth based system) but do allow me to put in 1 piece of advice.

Different people have different standards. So while to a classical fan, a certain speaker might 'rock' well, do have an open mind that to a hardcore rock fan, the same sound quality might not be good enough to satisfy him.

This is all I want to say. Remember,

"one man's meat may be another man's poison"

[quote="musicmusic"]

CN Yee wrote:

musicmusic wrote:A thick walled cabinet makes use of the port to deliver the resonance of the speaker box to enhance its bass. Harbeth with its thin walled cabinet makes use of the vibration of the cabinet to enhance its bass.

I just saw the picture of harbeth speaker with port. So that is thick walled Harbeth?

Can I summarize from the above arguments - Harbeth cannot rock but still good for whatever reasons, some people choose to like them?

Disclaimer first: I own a pair of Magnepan's and not Harbeth, but am very tempted to get a pair of P3ESR for my brother.

OK, now that's out of the way. I do read what Alan Shaw says and he strikes me a practical bloke with common sense. Its not that Harbeth's don't rock, its just that they are designed for a sweet spot at 85dB. This is partly from Harbeth's BBC heritage where in the olden days, Broadcast House was a building with many small studios inside and due to this proximity, no single studio was allowed to blast anything too loud. For example, Studio A may be doing a funeral piece and Studio B next door is doing a Metallica program. If Studio B blasts super loud, it will smear into the funeral program, which is not very good. Therefore, as a rule, all studios tend to operate at a volume sufficient to be recorded and broadcasted in quality. This makes perfect sense to me. So Harbeth's, coming from the BBC heritage, come from this backdrop.

Alan will never claim that his speakers are good for recording studios, which are different in that they tend to play very loud for the client (sometimes a heavy metal artist who is partially deaf). Besides, recording studios play very loud to impress these clients. So the speakers in there tend to be very large, sometimes like PA system type, so they can cope with >100db.

Now, at home, if you continually listen to music at >100db all the time, and your wife and neighbours are ok with that, then you shouldn;t buy Harbeth speakers. But Alan is guessing that most hi-fi use will be at home at around 85db, which by the way is not that soft. And so if you listen to rock music at moderate levels, Harbeth's are great.

Don't believe? Take bite's advise and go see Sam. He's a a band player himself and knows a thing or two about rock.

If u go listen to sam's setup at tropical audio, maybe ask him to bring u to a friend's setup not far from the shop. I think he has the best harbeth hl5 super setup in this part of the klang valley.(Not to forget there are other parts of the klang valley with equally well setup harbeths) I think I have introduce him to some of u guys at the allan shaw meet up. Those in the harbeth fourm already knew him and have met him.

If sam not free, i volunteer to bring u there la. just pm me.

I think the article How much distortion we can hear with music was very clear. The threshold for human ability to discern distortions can be tabulated below, as a function of the frequency:

8 kHz 1%
500Hz 10%
280Hz 20%
40Hz 100%
<40Hz >100% (i.e. distortion has to be louder than the music itself!)

These figures are interesting - as it is important to help us to understand why certain design works. Psychoacoustics, or how human perceive sounds - and the limits of human perception - has always to be taken into account in any consideration about sound equipments.

I am not discounting that some people can do much better than what the chart shows. There were documented cases of people being able to discern facial features at the distance of 1km. I am definitely not to put anybody down - especially not you mugenfoo. I am not discrediting whatever auditory capabilities that you think you might have. I am simply not interested in you whatsoever. I am talking about the 99.99% of the populations that forms the customer base of the industry. So you don't have to be condescending in dealing with your fellow netizen.

Ok - now back to speaker design.

How hi-fi do you think a piece of wood can be? Once it is excited the piece of wood will simply flex and bend and radiates the stored energy in the form of sound and heat. But yet in the case of Harbeth the few pieces of wood that made up the cabinet contributes some 50% of the total sound in the bass region!

Similarly to the ported sound. The thick walled speakers are not using the cabinet itself to generate sound, but the ported sound are created by sound waves bouncing around inside the cabinet, so it is governed by the shape and size of the cabinet nevertheless. How hi-fi can such sound be? But yet it contribute quite enormously to the bass sound!

My understanding is this. I am not making any absolute statement here. I am only a curious soul who has a passion to find out how things ticks. I am only presenting my current state of understanding, so that I can learn further and/or correct my misunderstanding from the responses and contributions.

The Harbeth cabinet is made of the same materials as most acoustic instruments are made of - i.e wood. It is also allowed to flex freely like that of a real instrument. I believe that this is what gives Harbeth the ability to sound like a real instrument.

But how hi-fi is Harbeth sound? Is Harbeth really reproducing the original cello sound? I don't think we can tell, at least most of us can't, as shown by the chart above. But at least Harbeth sounded like there is a REAL cello or piano in the room, full bodied, full of texture, full of details. And that is beautiful, and very satisfying.

I believe that Harbeth thin walled cabinet is the counterpart to the Radial driver in providing the micro details in the bass region.

Harbeth is more like a well tuned instrument. Getting the thickness right, getting the cross-over right so that all the sound components blends in seamlessly takes years of hard work. P3ERS was 4 years in the making.

p.s. Alan wasn't joking about his transistor radios:

Well, I do not listen to hifi every day. Sometimes weeks can pass before
I 'dip in' again. If I am overexposed to hifi I find that it is no
longer possible for me to be objective. I have a selection of portable
radios for daily use - one in most rooms. (And I mainly listen to BBC 7
for entertainment).