Adding an active subwoofer to Marantz amp

Greetings

I just started with this hi-fi hobby, after gotten poisoned by my good buddy.

My HF setup
Marantz CD & PM 6003
Mordaunt Short Mezzo 2
QED Speaker Cables Silver Anniversary-XT Bi-Wire with QED Screwloc 4mm banana plugs

My HT setup
Pioneer VSX-919
Rogers LS7 / RC300 / ASB-100

My question is, before getting my HF set, i'm so used to my HT for music & movie. Very much love the thumping!

Is there a way to hook up the sub to the PM6003 without losing the bi-wiring configuration?

Thanks in advance.

Jack

if your Marantz has a pre-amp output and it doesnt rely on connector pins on it to link to the amp's main-stage, then you're in luck. U can go look for some AV sub to "enhance" your love for "thumping".

Otherwise, u can still look for those Subs that can accept "speaker level" outputs to hook them up. But be prepared to suffer some overall sound quality from your main Mordaunt-Short speakers.

For good affordable subs, try contacting fellow forummer HTKAKI on hooking u up with a sub for your hifi system. He should be able to advice u the best way to go about it.

For the best effect for music get a close enclosure sub (or also called sealed sub) aka "no hole" sub

arremie wrote:For the best effect for music get a close enclosure sub (or also called sealed sub) aka "no hole" sub

Do you have any hard facts to back it up, or are you just stating your own personal preference ?

aiya bro Mugen....always ask for a fact. Not rocket science la

HTKAKI will agree with me

I don't see how "no hole" sub can give any pleasure... (listening pleasure that is)

Some info :

Sealed subwoofer

The sealed enclosure system is characterised by excellent transient response, good low frequency power handling, smaller box size and lower sensitivity to
misaligned parameters when compared to other alignments. However, sealed enclosure systems tend to suffer from higher cutoff points and lower sensitivity than the other low frequency systems.

They are usually the subwoofer system of choice for audiophiles because of
their excellent transient response (i.e. no boomy sound) characteristics when designed and built properly.



Ported Sub

A ported enclosure system consists of a driver mounted on one side of a box that has an open tunnel or port which allows the passage of air in and out of the box. At low frequencies, the vent contributes substantially to the output of the system.

The ported enclosure system is characterised by lower distortion and higher power handling in the system's operating range, and lower cutoff frequency than a sealed enclosure system using the same driver. Distortion rapidly increases below the cutoff frequency. However as the driver becomes unloaded, and the transient response of a ported enclosure system is usually
inferior to that of a sealed enclosure system using the same driver.

However, the lower cutoff frequency and better power handling within the system's passband often makes ported systems the alignment of choice for many speaker builders.

A ported sub normally is the choice for HT as it is able to push air and pressurize a room easier than a sealed sub. For a sealed sub to do that, it needs a whole lot more amplification and possibly a bigger driver. Having said that, both exhibits different characteristic.

Some might feel that a sealed sub does not have the 'bass extension' of a ported sub given the same price point and same driver.

In any case, I can always hook up a sealed sub and also a ported sub for you guys to test it out in near future. Same amp, same driver but different design; ported and sealed in the same room. Talking about room, it also play a major role in it just like hi-fi loudspeakers placement. If you are sitting in a 'null' area, even a Wilson Benesch Torus will not be of help. That's why sub crawl is being done to find the best placement for a sub.

Some people prefer the precise and taut clean bass from a sealed sub. Some just can't get enough the 'feel' by the ported sub when massive amount of air is being 'moved'. It's rather difficult to find the correct words until you
experience it. On another note, I must confesses that I prefers ported sub for my movie watching. Since it is 'interchangeable', I could always make the PB13-Ultra to be a 'sealed sub' for concerts or music listening.


Design Goal: High-end audio applications; size no object; excellent transient response.
Sub system: Sealed system, subwoofer driven by a dedicated amplifier.

Design Goal: High SPL sound reinforcement, size no object.
Sub system: Ported with 12" driver or above.

*Ooppsss.... looks like it is rather a lengthy one. Remind me of WongKN

mugenfoo wrote:

Otherwise, u can still look for those Subs that can accept "speaker level" outputs to hook them up. But be prepared to suffer some overall sound quality from your main Mordaunt-Short speakers.
it.

Pardon my ignorance, why is it so? I taught that having a sub will help in the overall sound as the sub now takes the pressure away from the speakers in the mid to lower bass region. And i was under the impression that speaker level input is better than pre-out input, as recommended by REL. If it is not so, it means i have been doing the wrong thing all these while!

Same thing la. You use speaker out or preout. Only setup different. Dont worry yourself too much. Enjoy your music more

I taught that having a sub will help in the overall sound as the sub now takes the pressure away from the speakers in the mid to lower bass region.

Unless you have active x-over, adding sub just like that do not take away pressure from the Mordaunt Short as the low frequency signal still get in there.

The sound quality by adding a sub this way may suffer if the tuning of the sub is not correct, in terms of low pass freq setting, level and phase. Higher freq setting may resulted in over booming while vise versa resulted in a hollow sound. Setting sub level too high is another subject.

For newbie, normally they want to "hear" the sub come out from the subwoofer by setting volume level too high.

cheelun wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:

Otherwise, u can still look for those Subs that can accept "speaker level" outputs to hook them up. But be prepared to suffer some overall sound quality from your main Mordaunt-Short speakers.
it.

Pardon my ignorance, why is it so? I taught that having a sub will help in the overall sound as the sub now takes the pressure away from the speakers in the mid to lower bass region. And i was under the impression that speaker level input is better than pre-out input, as recommended by REL. If it is not so, it means i have been doing the wrong thing all these while!

the amp's output stage will "see" a different kind of load-impedance when u hook up the speakers and also the sub's spk level connections.

Easier to express in schematic diagrams. But malas to draw and post it here.

Anyways, u can try & experiment with high-level vs line-level (pre-out) inputs. See which you u prefer. If u prefer one or the other, great. If you dont hear a diff, then don't worry about it either.

Spoiler:

So does htkaki agree with aremie or not ?

The point here is that its dangerous to simply generalise.

There are plenty of high-end hi-fi speakers that are designed with a bass reflex ported cabinet (just as there are also plenty of high-end hifi speakers also using closed box cabinet designs). It all comes down to the overall design, like where i the port tuned (or the internal sealed volume and its labyrinths) to resonate at, how does it sonically crossover from the wooder's natural low-freq rolloff, etc etc. and how this all matches with the other bits of the system and also the room effects.

BTW, the more accurate term for closed-box designs is called "infinite baffle" or "acoustic suspension". U guys can google it up to learn about its pros/cons.

a well designed ported subwoofer can sounds as good or even outperform a sealed subwoofer. This is notably significant when I pitted a ported sub against a sealed sub that cost considerably more.

The current sub to beat (at below RM20K) is Paradigm Sub25, which is available locally. With PDK-1, it performs exceptionally well with good pace, powerful yet well-controlled bass. Incidentally, this is a servo sealed subwoofer. JL Audio F113 is another fine example of sealed sub in a compact enclosure but in many in the US forum claimed that it is being outperformed by a ported sub with identical sized woofer but different design.

Dear htkaki,

How much is Paradigm Sub25?

IIRC, Sub25 is about RM16K w/o PBK-1 kit.

Thank you all for your detailed comments.

It's my mistake as I didn't realise my expectation for needing a sub. I will be getting a Cambridge Audio 650A to try out whether it meets my requirement. It's either the Marantz or CA (can't afford to keep both)!

Update

Didn't managed to audition the CA 650A as I have gotten a good deal for a Marantz PM7003 (with pre-out and power amp option). With the sub aside, there is significant improvement on vocal delivery over the PM6003 (Yao Si Ting - Endless Love II & Seiko Niizuma - Musical Moments). However, I do find at times it is kinda "bright" on my MS speakers.

Great to have some low freq back into the music.

jackyuen wrote:Update

Didn't managed to audition the CA 650A as I have gotten a good deal for a Marantz PM7003 (with pre-out and power amp option). With the sub aside, there is significant improvement on vocal delivery over the PM6003 (Yao Si Ting - Endless Love II & Seiko Niizuma - Musical Moments). However, I do find at times it is kinda "bright" on my MS speakers.

Great to have some low freq back into the music.

It's the QED SA XT. It is 'notorious' for its brightness. However, it does improve bass performance.

I had this cable for less than 2 months. Sold it off due to its brightness.

htkaki wrote:

jackyuen wrote:Update

Didn't managed to audition the CA 650A as I have gotten a good deal for a Marantz PM7003 (with pre-out and power amp option). With the sub aside, there is significant improvement on vocal delivery over the PM6003 (Yao Si Ting - Endless Love II & Seiko Niizuma - Musical Moments). However, I do find at times it is kinda "bright" on my MS speakers.

Great to have some low freq back into the music.

It's the QED SA XT. It is 'notorious' for its brightness. However, it does improve bass performance.

I had this cable for less than 2 months. Sold it off due to its brightness.

Alamak... Getting expensive this hobby

hi htkaki

would you advise your customers to deploy a pair of identical subwoofers for music playback or single unit will do? care to explain more on 2 subwoofers (pair) vs single unit



thanks/regards
tlkoo

htkaki wrote:

jackyuen wrote:Update

Didn't managed to audition the CA 650A as I have gotten a good deal for a Marantz PM7003 (with pre-out and power amp option). With the sub aside, there is significant improvement on vocal delivery over the PM6003 (Yao Si Ting - Endless Love II & Seiko Niizuma - Musical Moments). However, I do find at times it is kinda "bright" on my MS speakers.

Great to have some low freq back into the music.

It's the QED SA XT. It is 'notorious' for its brightness. However, it does improve bass performance.

I had this cable for less than 2 months. Sold it off due to its brightness.

To some audiophiles...........

1. Die die also don't want subwoofer, 'beh tahan liao'! Some will live with bookshelves all their lives, whereas some will tolerate floorstanders as far as they could!

2. 1 subwoofer is all u ever need! And it's fit for HT duties only! Subwoofer is a 'no no' for 2 channel stereos!

3. Twin pair of subwoofers make for a difference! So is there a difference between the the bass coming out from a left channel and a right channel?

Some food for thoughts? Dealers of subwoofers may be in a better position to 'educate' the listening publics!

tlkoo wrote:hi htkaki

would you advise your customers to deploy a pair of identical subwoofers for music playback or single unit will do? care to explain more on 2 subwoofers (pair) vs single unit



thanks/regards
tlkoo

A single subwoofer if placed and set up correctly, is not easy to localize it. A double sub system placed equidistant will have very smooth and even bass response while increasing headroom.

A lot of people have the misconception that adding another sub will double the power. No, it doesn't. It will only add up to 6db at most.

If you have room acoustic issue esp bass, then a dual sub would be ideal. Try with 1 unit first and do a sub crawl. If it is good, then need not to go for dual subs.

unc vic, only if a full range loudspeakers is used then a sub is not needed. I do agree with you that there are some who insisted not to use sub as they think it might 'colorise' the music even though they are using standmount speakers with limited bandwidth. For me, the music is not complete as anything below the frequency response of the speakers is lost. Anyway, one man's meat is another man's poison .

It reminded me of a fellow forum member that insisted modding the internal of equipments than changing the power cord, which I do not protest as we have different approach in maximizing our gears

htkaki wrote:
A lot of people have the misconception that adding another sub will double the power. No, it doesn't. It will only add up to 6db at most.

And alot of people have misconception about the real meaning of "dB".

3dB is already "double the power". 6dB is actually 4X { 2(^2)= 2 X 2 = 4 } the Power.

Yes. But, the problem is that most users thought it is would actually 'double' the loudness by using 2 subs. Just like the case of power amp. LOL....

When dual subs are being employed, one need to calibrate with SPL Meter and tone down the gain so as not to be overpowering the rest of the loudspeakers.

"For me, the music is not complete as anything below the frequency response of the speakers is lost"

short and sweet. drum kicks and "air-moving" double bass, can't live without that

mugenfoo wrote:

htkaki wrote:
A lot of people have the misconception that adding another sub will double the power. No, it doesn't. It will only add up to 6db at most.

And alot of people have misconception about the real meaning of "dB".

3dB is already "double the power". 6dB is actually 4X { 2(^2)= 2 X 2 = 4 } the Power.

htkaki wrote:Yes. But, the problem is that most users thought it is would actually 'double' the loudness by using 2 subs. Just like the case of power amp. LOL....

When dual subs are being employed, one need to calibrate with SPL Meter and tone down the gain so as not to be overpowering the rest of the loudspeakers.

Its the previous statement that implies 6dB is not quite "double the power" , implying that 6dB is somewhat less than "double the power". (Which is a totally inaccurate statement).

So lets stick back to facts: where 6dB is in fact QUADRUPLE the power of anything; Be it a boomy-boom-boom-bass-sound, electricity, your home wifi router's signal or anything that is of quantifiable energy.

If an identical sub-woofer is added to an existing one, then the total SOUND POWER radiated in a given room, where all else being equal will be in fact exactly DOUBLE the Sound Power produced. But what the human ear will hear is a different thing altogether. Hence the 6dB perceived increase in loudness which is actually due to other factors such as corner & wall loading affecting both speakers (instead of one standalone sub). If the same conditions were to be done in a perfect anaechoic chamber, the 2nd speaker should give exactly 3dB gain in loudness and this would still be EXACTLY double the power of sound radiated.

Obviously "double" the loudness does not mean the same thing as "double the power" at all, as human hearing is logarithmic by nature. Human perception of hearing on "double the loudness" would need differing power levels depending on how far up from the treshold of human hearing are you referencing from. From a whisper to a breeze could be perceived to be twice the loudness but just actually a 6dB difference in acoustic (sound) power. But from a F1 engine to a Jet engine won't really feel like "twice the loudness" as both are at or beyond the treshold of human ear pain already. But rest assured, a Pratt & Whitney F100 Afterburning jet will definitely emanate more than 10x (>20dB difference) the acoustic power than a modern typical V8 2.4L F1 engine.

arremie wrote:For the best effect for music get a close enclosure sub (or also called sealed sub) aka "no hole" sub

htkaki wrote:Some info :

Sealed subwoofer

The sealed enclosure system is characterised by excellent transient response, good low frequency power handling, smaller box size and lower sensitivity to
misaligned parameters when compared to other alignments. However, sealed enclosure systems tend to suffer from higher cutoff points and lower sensitivity than the other low frequency systems.

They are usually the subwoofer system of choice for audiophiles because of their excellent transient response (i.e. no boomy sound) characteristics when designed and built properly.

Some might feel that a sealed sub does not have the 'bass extension' of a ported sub given the same price point and same driver.

Some people prefer the precise and taut clean bass from a sealed sub. Some just can't get enough the 'feel' by the ported sub when massive amount of air is being 'moved'. It's rather difficult to find the correct words until you
experience it.

New year resolution : Upgrade current speakers.

Was shopping for a good pair of floorstanders (can't afford ProAc that can hit below 35Hz). Was really thinking to discard the sub. Tested Mordaunt-Short Mezzo, KEF iQ, Mission MX and Tannoy Revolution. Used my own test CD (Tsai Chin's Ming Ge & Eagles's Hell Freezes Over). Also tested a few active subs (with and without while testing the floorstanders).

Over 2 hours of listening, I still find the sub plus bookshelves gives me better listening pleasure.

So i upgraded my sub to a Mezzo 9 375W RMS dual 8" enclosed sub. Really powerful (can feel solid vib when Hotel California was played). This coupled with some advise that if I have a small space, the low freq from the enclosed sub is better controlled. Plus can save some money on bass traps!

Another plus point. The Mezzo sub comes with a remote controller that has a sound pressure meter (SPL) built in.



Thanks for arremie and htkaki for their advise on the sealed sub.