Electricity effects on hifi?

Hello all,
How does the electricity supply to our house effects our hifi unit with regards to heat? I notice that my pre and power amps are much hotter physically in my new house compared to my previous house. At times, I cant even touch my power amp.

Maybe your new house running at 250volts and your old house was 210volts? It's possible. Or maybe your new house is just warmer than the old? A thermometer and a A/C voltmeter could answer your question best.

I know that would happen if the voltage in your area is high, say around 260V. It has happened to me, an amp was literally humming and hot, my volt meter reading was 265V! These days, I use a PurePower AC regenerator for a constant 230V to my hifi gear.

The other thing is perhaps lack of proper ventilation.

Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

bimmerman wrote:Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

There is no such thing as you will get 55.3hz of electricity.

Generators run at 3000rpm speed, 50hz for the power grid, protection will activate to trip generators ( blackout ) if it is below 47hz or above 52hz.

Generator overspeed trip protection will activate if the speed is above 3120rpm speed or the grid frequency is above 52hz. Therefore it is no such thing as 55.3hz of electricity allowed in Malaysia.

Other things aside, I do find that the issue of heat depends a lot on your amplifier. If it is pure Class-A, or if it is asked to work hard - drive a difficult speaker load, or to play very loud. As another aside, I also find it very obvious when I 'upgraded' my power supply - the addition of the locally designed and made Powertrans for e.g. Then the use of high quality power cords. And finally, the pulling of a dedicated supply to the Powertran, from the mains DB board. Also I use thicker than normal mains cable, not the regular 4mm type but thicker. Very dfficult to work with though.

Im using the cheap RM60 power supply that can limit to max 240V, if more than that it will shut down automatically. It very useful to maintain your electricity equipment from overpower. U can find power supply at any computer shop for RM60..it really useful.

bimmerman wrote:Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

Can you set it to 240/60 from input of 230/50?

kancan wrote:Im using the cheap RM60 power supply that can limit to max 240V, if more than that it will shut down automatically. It very useful to maintain your electricity equipment from overpower. U can find power supply at any computer shop for RM60..it really useful.

Such a device will do more harm than protecting your equipments from over voltage at a mere 240v which is still considered safe for equipments.

With such device, you may experience, if you are "lucky", speaker's tweeter blown due to sudden electricity cut off if voltage is 240v. My friend experienced a power blackout during his listening session, causing one of the tweeter of his rm40k speaker blown.

So, dare to use such device?

Maybe your friends not lucky that time or the tweeter so easy to blown, 40k can blown that easy just because power black out, really damn crap speaker tweeter i think. Ask Your friend to sue .. That why we need protection...

That phenomenon is unlikely to happen with tube amplifiers with output transformer.

This issue of blown speakers with power trip happens often with pre-power amplifiers combo, though not all. The thing is when the power supply to a preamp is suddenly cut-off, -some- (not all) may generate a sudden output surge. Many higher end power amps have capacitors so large that they are actually effectively still switched on, at or near full capacity, for a few seconds after their power is switch off. I.e. a Mark Levinson, Krell, Jeff Rowland, and other similar high end power amps are famous for being able to continue playing for a short while even after we have switched them off. Some equipments, esp pre-amps are designed to switch off their output stages when their on-off switch is off but in the scenario of the power-trip, that on-off switch would still be on, just a sudden cut-off of power supply. So capacitors suddenly discharges and the output stages may still be active.

When one talks about an RM40k speaker, I would assume that it is a high chance the system will also comprise pre-power of fairly high-end nature, whether tube or ss. With a setup like these, if our system is switched on and there is a sudden power trip, the preamp may generate the surge to the poweramp which will still contain plenty of reserve to send that surge down to the speakers, thereby damaging it. The best high-end amps like ML, Krell, JR, etc have mutiple layers of protective circuitry to prevent these sort of damage. This is often the difference between them and other relative more affordable amps, eventhough sometimes the more affordable ones can deliver a sound quality near them. This is also why many people ask why a high-end amp like the ML, etc will cost so much - why so complicated circuitry inside when for e.g. "I can do the same with a much simpler circuitry and perhaps get similar sound since there is less components to distort the input". So the answer is all these extras. If one can be very sure disaster never happens, then yes, it is easy to write off all these extras as being useless and a waste of money. But as was shown with that blown RM40k speaker, there -IS- a very valid reason for safety factors.

The worse case scenario would be the use of one of these high powered super-amps but with a minimalist preamp, for the sake of 'purity of sound'. But that high power superamp is designed to work with its own brand with ample protective circuitry while the minimalist preamp assumes some sort of prudency with owners and thus does away with some or all of the protective circuitry in the name of sound quality at an affordable price. This might be the cause for that damaged RM40k speaker.

Note that this is NOT to put down minimalist designs. They serve a very important purpose - to allow the more common folks like us to enjoy high-end sound without having to rob a bank. But then with minimalist approach must come some caverts as well as care and prudency with use.

Anolgies to real-life would be the reason why we have a spare tyre in our car. Or we have air-bags and ALBS which in all probability (we would hope) are never ever used, or need to be used, in our lifetime. For those in the I/T, a very good analogy if one is a programmer is to think of it as the simple program with minimum coding which works and delivers the requirement. But such programs are all but useless to a real life business entity, say like a bank for e.g., because it is not robust and it will crash easily simply because in real-life, input data is not perfect. So a real-life workable and useful program, for a bank for e.g., will need to have lots of extra coding to cater for those exception conditions.

Safety is one thing that should never be made jokes off. I am not sure if tube amps with output transformers would be immune to such output surges but I have knowledgeable friends who warns me to be extra careful with my ARC pre-power, esp when switching on and off so I think they too might be somewhat susceptible.

WongKn. Its technically for certain Output transformer based is safer or safest in case of blackout as the voltage potential (or magnetic field) collapses almost instantly or to a negligible value that can't damage or cause hurt to any load. Of course its not the case with solid state as capacitor stored charge may still be high enough to keep transistors still switched on for a certain time. Just like opamps, they operate at variable voltage at a current thats still available at the PSU eventhough its switched off. Tubes can't do that and must operate at high voltages. A total collapse of voltage cuts the operation off almost instantly.
As for ARC, I think it depends on the model. I suspect and have experienced farts on a particular model SP XX (solid state stage/ tube hybrid phono) preamp.

Mr WongKN,

For your info, my friend was using a rm100k , made in US, same brand, solid state pre-power combo to power the mentioned rm40k "damn crap speakers, as described" . Regards.

kancan wrote:Im using the cheap RM60 power supply that can limit to max 240V, if more than that it will shut down automatically. It very useful to maintain your electricity equipment from overpower. U can find power supply at any computer shop for RM60..it really useful.

If you accept the device concept - to automatically cut-off the power supply to your hifi equipments once voltage is above 240v, is to usefully protect equipments from overpowered, then use it at your own equipments risk.

tycham wrote:

bimmerman wrote:Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

Can you set it to 240/60 from input of 230/50?

No you can't Tycham. It's 230/50 or 240/50 only and it's not user selectable either. Mine has been preset at 230/50. One cool feature is you can toggle the display to show load, battery charge, operating temperature, input voltage and frequency and also output voltage. I don't know how accurate the display is but I saw the input voltage indicator showing 219Volts/55.3Hz the other night. After a while it settles at 50.something hertz.

bimmerman wrote:Maybe your new house running at 250volts and your old house was 210volts? It's possible. Or maybe your new house is just warmer than the old? A thermometer and a A/C voltmeter could answer your question best.

Its not the heat in the house definitely. My pre and power amps are on the top shelf of the rack and well ventilated.

But this discussion a little bit too late. Just realised that my power (righ monoblock) is fried. I can hear cracking and distortion from my right speaker. Using the links on the speakers, I tried to run the speakers just from my pre (which is also an integrated amp) and no more cracking noise.

Aarrrrgghhhh meaning have to send the power amp for reapirs. Or should I just buy a new amplification set up.

bimmerman wrote:

tycham wrote:

bimmerman wrote:Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

Can you set it to 240/60 from input of 230/50?

No you can't Tycham. It's 230/50 or 240/50 only and it's not user selectable either. Mine has been preset at 230/50. One cool feature is you can toggle the display to show load, battery charge, operating temperature, input voltage and frequency and also output voltage. I don't know how accurate the display is but I saw the input voltage indicator showing 219Volts/55.3Hz the other night. After a while it settles at 50.something hertz.

When the PurePower is just being switched on, the frequency will be adjusted from 55hz to 50hz according to its display reading, it's normal and this being adjusted display reading is not the actual power grid frequency. Only after it stabilise at 50hz, it shows the true grid frequency, so no worry.
ps: I confirmed this with the power generation of grid frequency when i first noticed this condition.

soonthas wrote:

bimmerman wrote:Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

There is no such thing as you will get 55.3hz of electricity.

Generators run at 3000rpm speed, 50hz for the power grid, protection will activate to trip generators ( blackout ) if it is below 47hz or above 52hz.

Generator overspeed trip protection will activate if the speed is above 3120rpm speed or the grid frequency is above 52hz. Therefore it is no such thing as 55.3hz of electricity allowed in Malaysia.

Generator frequency is very sensitive and imagine all the MW generator are connected in the 'grid'. That illegal freq is outside of 50.5Hz and 49.5Hz

http://www.tnb.com.my/business/for-housing-developers-electrical-contractors/tnb-electricity-system.html

hughesths wrote:Mr WongKN,

For your info, my friend was using a rm100k , made in US, same brand, solid state pre-power combo to power the mentioned rm40k "damn crap speakers, as described" . Regards.

Then I am shocked because I cannot think of many RM100k US made pre-power combo that does not have some form of speaker output protection. Some even have protection for accidental shorting of the speaker terminals. Almost all will have DC input protection. But I do know that older Mark Levinson 26 will discharge if the power supply is cut while it still on. This was my first exposure to the phenomenon, the ML26 was playing into an ML23.5 and there was a power black-out and a quite loud 'thump' came from the speakers as the ML26 discharged. After asking to check the owners manual (out of curiosity), it was clearly stated that the preamp MUST be switched on before the power amp and switch off AFTER the power amp is completely off.

Anyway, I wouldn't call that speaker 'crap'. It's just one of the things that can happen, even with expensive high-end hi-fi. My personal opinions of course. I gather your friend have upgraded to a more expensive speaker since then ?

chua55 wrote:

soonthas wrote:

bimmerman wrote:Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

There is no such thing as you will get 55.3hz of electricity.

Generators run at 3000rpm speed, 50hz for the power grid, protection will activate to trip generators ( blackout ) if it is below 47hz or above 52hz.

Generator overspeed trip protection will activate if the speed is above 3120rpm speed or the grid frequency is above 52hz. Therefore it is no such thing as 55.3hz of electricity allowed in Malaysia.

Generator frequency is very sensitive and imagine all the MW generator are connected in the 'grid'. That illegal freq is outside of 50.5Hz and 49.5Hz

[url=http://www.tnb.com.my/business/for-housing-developers-electrical-contractors/tnb-electricity-system.html

http://www.tnb.com.my/business/for-housing-developers-electrical-contractors/tnb-electricity-system.html[/quote[/url]]


There is a specific allowable time frame for power generators to continue running before generators tripping, for example, in the worse case, if generator speed is around 2820rpm ( under frequency , 47hz) or 3120rpm ( over frequency, 52hz ), the max allowable time for generators to continue running is 3 minutes before protections to trip the generators.
Load shedding will normally be performed immediately to prevent major power blackout.

Mr Wong KN,

My friend had to spend RM thousands to get the blown tweeter replaced. He had bought a PurePower 2000i since then.

The "damn crap speakers" was described by Mr Kancan, but not you , thanks a lot for your useful info.

hughesths wrote:Mr Wong KN,

My friend had to spend RM thousands to get the blown tweeter replaced. He had bought a PurePower 2000i since then.

The "damn crap speakers" was described by Mr Kancan, but not you , thanks a lot for your useful info.

Wow, that's a lot of money but I would think for a speaker worth RM40k, the tweeter would certainly be worth several thousands. I assume/hope only 1 side was fried and not both tweeters have to be replaced.

Yeah, I know you weren't referring to me when you wrote 'damp crap speakers', but I just wanted to highlight that somethings shit happens, even to high-end stuff and we shouldn't just put them down as crap items because of some unfortunate accident.

Your experience also, IMHO, highlights how important it is to have some sort of power treatment device.

hughesths wrote:Mr Wong KN,

My friend had to spend RM thousands to get the blown tweeter replaced. He had bought a PurePower 2000i since then.

The "damn crap speakers" was described by Mr Kancan, but not you , thanks a lot for your useful info.

Mr Hugh. My apologies if i make you not happy with my statement.

But what im just say its clear. Your friend speaker RM40k it not good enough because of black out. Why cannot tahan? its it crap or what? get refund bro, your 'friend' are consumer also. So many year im using speaker from RM100-RM5K..never happen that what your 'friend' call situation.

Mr Kancan,

Like Mr WongKn said, the main cause of the blown tweeter is the design of Pre-power amp but not the speakers, so it's irrelevant to state the speakers are crap.
I believe most expensive high end speakers are susceptible to the same situation during blackout, therefore good power treatment is very important.

Ps: the "damn crap" speakers brand is Focus Audio, for your info.

hughesths wrote:Mr Kancan,

Like Mr WongKn said, the main cause of the blown tweeter is the design of Pre-power amp but not the speakers, so it's irrelevant to state the speakers are crap.
I believe most expensive high end speakers are susceptible to the same situation during blackout, therefore good power treatment is very important.

Ps: the "damn crap" speakers brand is Focus Audio, for your info.

Are we discus about Power suply or pre-power in the beginning?

hughesths wrote:Mr WongKN,

For your info, my friend was using a rm100k , made in US, same brand, solid state pre-power combo to power the mentioned rm40k "damn crap speakers, as described" . Regards.

By the way Focus Audio Made and manufactured in Canada not US as you mention.

kancan wrote:

hughesths wrote:Mr WongKN,

For your info, my friend was using a rm100k , made in US, same brand, solid state pre-power combo to power the mentioned rm40k "damn crap speakers, as described" . Regards.

By the way Focus Audio Made and manufactured in Canada not US as you mention.

Mr Kancan,

Please kindly read carefully before you make any incorrect statement - i only stated my friend's rm100k pre-power amp combo were made in US.

kancan wrote:

hughesths wrote:Mr Kancan,

Like Mr WongKn said, the main cause of the blown tweeter is the design of Pre-power amp but not the speakers, so it's irrelevant to state the speakers are crap.
I believe most expensive high end speakers are susceptible to the same situation during blackout, therefore good power treatment is very important.

Ps: the "damn crap" speakers brand is Focus Audio, for your info.

Are we discus about Power suply or pre-power in the beginning?

Mr Kancan,

Those discussions were made just to clear your doubt of not reading our statements carefully.
So, again, please read carefully before making any statement.

hughesths wrote:

bimmerman wrote:

tycham wrote:

bimmerman wrote:Yup Purepower, when it's 265 volts you get 230 Volts. When it's 210 volts you get 230 volts. Best of all I get 50hz when it's actually 55.3Hz! Can't recommend this more highly!

Can you set it to 240/60 from input of 230/50?

No you can't Tycham. It's 230/50 or 240/50 only and it's not user selectable either. Mine has been preset at 230/50. One cool feature is you can toggle the display to show load, battery charge, operating temperature, input voltage and frequency and also output voltage. I don't know how accurate the display is but I saw the input voltage indicator showing 219Volts/55.3Hz the other night. After a while it settles at 50.something hertz.

When the PurePower is just being switched on, the frequency will be adjusted from 55hz to 50hz according to its display reading, it's normal and this being adjusted display reading is not the actual power grid frequency. Only after it stabilise at 50hz, it shows the true grid frequency, so no worry.
ps: I confirmed this with the power generation of grid frequency when i first noticed this condition.

Excellent! Thanks for the clarification bro!

After it stabilizes for a few minutes I do get 50.3, 50.2 sometimes.

Hi Bimmerman

You're welcome, bro.

50.3hz , 50.2hz grid frequency is good, it shows that the actual power generation is more than the actual power demand, so, no worry.

hughesths wrote:

kancan wrote:

hughesths wrote:Mr WongKN,

For your info, my friend was using a rm100k , made in US, same brand, solid state pre-power combo to power the mentioned rm40k "damn crap speakers, as described" . Regards.

By the way Focus Audio Made and manufactured in Canada not US as you mention.

Mr Kancan,

Please kindly read carefully before you make any incorrect statement - i only stated my friend's rm100k pre-power amp combo were made in US.

Dont pusing2. I dont think you mention speaker made in canada. Your statement is clear. refer top bro. No joke bro. Or your also dont know what your word?

hughesths wrote:

kancan wrote:

hughesths wrote:Mr Kancan,

Like Mr WongKn said, the main cause of the blown tweeter is the design of Pre-power amp but not the speakers, so it's irrelevant to state the speakers are crap.
I believe most expensive high end speakers are susceptible to the same situation during blackout, therefore good power treatment is very important.

Ps: the "damn crap" speakers brand is Focus Audio, for your info.

Are we discus about Power suply or pre-power in the beginning?

Mr Kancan,

Those discussions were made just to clear your doubt of not reading our statements carefully.
So, again, please read carefully before making any statement.

Discus with Mr.WongKn is not what our discussion..u need flashback.

What is the fuss all about?

Hughesths was correct all along. It is pretty clear in English that the combo refers to the 'same-brand' preamp & power amp, which he describes as made in the US; powering the speakers, which comes after the phrase 'pre-power combo'.

Yes, if the amp decides to do a power-dump during a power failure or amp malfunction and damages the speakers in the process, it would be quite illogical to think that the speakers are flawed. Passive dynamic speakers don't blow on their own unless due to 1) power overload/spikes, 2) component wear & tear/deterioration or 3) insufficient crossover tolerance. In the case of 3), regardless of a power failure/spike, the drivers would have a reasonable probability of being damaged during louder musical passages.

Some of the components have built in protection and how reliable these electronic component at works against a massive dip/spike is,,, no one knows. That little diode/cap may have withstood the first 100 strike but not the subsequent one. Not to go into power quality (dip, sag, spike, freq, etc), the first line of defense should be at the source before such event cascade to components.

I would love to have that protection right before my working horses provided such products are reliable and proven. do the supplier warrant against events such as discuss here. has it been test proven.

This reminds of type testing where the gear is tested to its destruction and analysed.



what is the warranty/indenmity against such products.

Thank you, Hi-Fi 4 Sale.

I am planning to purchase a power supply stabilizer. Anyone can recommend a good brand, price and where to purchase?

I only have one power outlet socket on the wall where my set up is. Currently running 8 units via a Belkin 8 way surge protector.

visit Tong Lee at low yat plaza - lot to choose at reasonable price

Thanks James. Any particular brand that you can suggest? I was looking at RGPC but it seems all the stabilisers only have US plug input. My kit are all 3 pin UK plugs.

RGPC is a conditioner, not stabiliser. Tong Lee sells a number of voltage stabiliers from Soundstage, at a range of prices. These accepted UK and US plugs.

bassraptor,

This is another burning question I have in my mind. From the RGPC website, it states:

RGPC’s patented parallel power delivery models protect valuable home entertainment equipment from potentially devastating power surges and spikes. In addition, they always deliver just the right amount of current each piece of gear needs, ensuring optimum audio and video performance. And unlike traditional series line conditioners, our parallel models present no obstacles between the power source and the A/V equipment ensuring the delivery of uncompromised dynamics allowing your products to perform as originally designed.

Its a conditioner but stabilizes the power supply???

Will check out Soundstage.

Thanks.

I think maybe you're getting voltage and current mixed up.

A voltage stabiliser will keep your voltage at a limited range, no matter the input voltage. It will also shut down if there's a surge above its rating.

As far as I know, RGPC does not regulate voltage.

Current is another matter. All manufacturer of filters and stabilisers will claim their products don't limit current. Some don't in use, others do. So while the RGPC could bear out the claim and deliver the current required during certain passages of music, i doubt it will control voltage swings.

So, what do you need ...?

I am curious on how RGPC able to make the background quieter for hifi gears?

Has anyone experience after using RGPC, the casing voltage goes up instead of to ground ?

elhefe wrote:

RGPC’s patented parallel power delivery models protect valuable home entertainment equipment from potentially devastating power surges and spikes. In addition, they always deliver just the right amount of current each piece of gear needs, ensuring optimum audio and video performance. And unlike traditional series line conditioners, our parallel models present no obstacles between the power source and the A/V equipment ensuring the delivery of uncompromised dynamics allowing your products to perform as originally designed.

Don't get sucked into all these marketing puffery sugar coated statements.
There is nothing that could back up that "deliver just the right amount of yadiyadiyadda" statement.

Any device thats put in between the mains supply and the equipment WILL consume current (an d hence, power) in its own right , either via electronic regulation, parasitic losses (yes, even so-called "Parallel models"), or both (which is always the case).

Voltage and current are so intricately related that it forms the fundamentals of electricity; hence and one cannot talk of one without involving the other. (Ohm's Law).

The real science behind electrical mains conditioning will be in terms of voltage stabilisation, phase correction / compensation (Power factor stuff) and line noise filters.

As long as the mains voltage is stable, and the voltage-current phase doesnt shift too much when the hifi system suddenly consumes alot of power, then everything else will fall into place. This includes the fact that ample current (and with phase coherency, usable current) will always be delivered to the equipment at all times.

have used ps audio range / richard grey ( even their power station ) to little effect. i recommend you to use soundstage 5500 . it actually a monster power unit if you open up the inside . a monster brand sell for Rm 9500. this one half the price . i got lots of friends using it for years without failure even under thunderstorm - no kidding ! you can ask for a home audition - Jenny sure ok. theres also a little bro to 5500 and much more cheaper ( only for low power units ). the above mention ps + rg actually are more of conditioners rather than conditioners cum regulators. one thing good about the s 5500 is whether its a lightning strike or sudden power failure - it will auto on within 20 sec . after stabilizing the unit. Happy hunting

Thanks all for the pointers. Current, voltage, resistance and power is all inter related when it comes to electricity supply.

My main concern is more towards protecting my amps from becoming very hot as my recent experience of amp overheating has caused some of the internal soldering works effected. As for power surge, I am already using a belkin surge protector.

So in essence, i would need a voltage stabiliser. Will check out soundstage and also try RGPC.

please be advise - a stabilizer is diff from a regulator . i guess your amp overheating is more of a result from room or space ventilation or high voltage current supply. i feel a regulator will do you more good .

Its definitely not room or ventilation as the amps are placed on the very top of the rack. And this problem only occuring in this new house. Regulator? What is the different from a stabilizer?

Yes, what's the difference between regulator and stabiliser?

Elhefe - why don't you first monitor your incoming voltage through the day? To find out just how high it goes and how long it stays there?