200g LPs - too much bass

Guys,

Vinyl Sifus, need your help here.

I noticed that whenever I play thicker records eg. 180g or worse still, 200g LPs including audiophile records (test press 45), my system produces too much bass. Overpowering is one word that comes to my mind. No such problems with the regular, thinner ones - clean, taut bass.

Could this be the lack of speed in my AIME (entry level) phono amp setup? Tried mucking around with the capacitance and load settings but to no avail. Tried moving my speakers too!

Issue with the TT (Linn LP12) setup itself? But if I adjust this, would this make the regular records sound thin and bright?

I also noticed that a few "audiophile" grade records such as Eva Cassidy's Songbird and Linda Ronstadt's Hasten Down The Wind (reissue) were poor. It this a case of poor recording or TT setup issue?

Thanks.

try making the tracking force a little lighter when you're playing the thick stuff...

Ah, the finer workings of vinyl playback!

Raise the arm height a little (if possible with the arm you use) when you play the thicker LPs, and preferably adjust cartridge weight to the optimum because it will change with arm height. There is no getting away from this! Just try to keep arm parallel to surface, generally, although there are exceptions

Whoever said vinyl wasn't fun ...

but you know, i don't have such problems when switching back n forth between thick licorice pizza and thin licorice pizza on my ultra-high-tech state of the art Planar 3....

bassraptor wrote:Ah, the finer workings of vinyl playback!

Raise the arm height a little (if possible with the arm you use) when you play the thicker LPs, and preferably adjust cartridge weight to the optimum because it will change with arm height. There is no getting away from this! Just try to keep arm parallel to surface, generally, although there are exceptions

Whoever said vinyl wasn't fun ...

English please hehehehe .... much more to learn...

Hi Alpha...

Comparing my two TT's...RP3 and the LP12...i find that my LP12 has a slightly heavier bass and firmness...and both are using similar cartridges. ( AT95E) The comparison done on STD LP's and a 180gm Lp as well.

Maybe its the build quality difference of these two TT's.

Got to go try out the suggestions by Bass and Jedi.

cheers

Hi Wingman,

I had a Planar 3 (with a Rega Elys mm cart) before - a simple plug & play TT. Loved it, especially the bass - firm and deep. But not refined to my ears, especially the highs. The LP12 is better is many aspects but the bass is a bit "fatter" in comparison.

Will try to raise the arm and adjust the tracking force as suggested.

Thank you all.

Dog

Hi Alpha...

Agree with you....now my LP12 is the primary rig...loving the musicality of it ...my RP3 is in rest mode most of the time.

MC cart upgrade plans in the pipeline.....have not decided which to go with.....lots of reading before the deciding....


cheers

AT95E? I think the LP12 deserves much much better than that. An excellent MC cartridge will bring forward much more sonic satisfaction and richness. Having said that, it'll also deserve a better phono, something in the lines of a matching MC step up trans with, or a higher end phono stage.

In practice, the AT95E is quite a stellar performer for the Rega at its budget price. At times I've quite a soft spot and respect for this cartridge, but an MC outperforms this anytime.

Hi CM...

Couldn't agree with you more, now its down to that choice.

Mind sharing your views on the commonly available MC cart in the MY market place, Denon or Benz Micro or anyother make ?

cheers

Susah lah, and dare not because of personal preferences and the affordability. Denon, Ortofon or Benz would be among welcome choice. There's quite a choice on desirable higher end carts and I suggest you also take note and carefully research cartridge compliance and compatibility which I feel is very important, along with other critical tonearm setup measures. I'm in the middle, mulling and quite eager over a MC step up transformer as an alternative to active MC head amp kinds. I'm hoping it'll introduce another dimension of improved sonics. Thats another story.

In KL right now, there are the following cart options readily available:

Grado at Jaya One, Music by Design (or something like that)
Orotofon and Rega at Amcorp at Asia Sound
Benz at SS2 Audio Image
Dynavector at TTDI Centre Circle
Clearaudio at CMY

I've been thinking about Denon, but no one in KL seems to hold them, not even people who sell Denon products.

Research and buy Denon (or others) from internet at competitive prices lah. I think should there be any available here, the it won't be much cheaper here. For example as I seen, AT95E, the local asking price is much more than I would buy from Ebay. Everything can be gotten from this virtual world, just the $$ matter.

Then there are those who bang on about serial numbers and agenofthe cartridge etc etc etc.... But life is too short right?

What serial nos? Personally I won't buy used cartridges. Used TT yes, Used or NOS cartridge, NO! and for good reasons.

Apparently some of the online sources sell NOS... Care to share some of the online sources you're comfortable buying from? Needledoctor not so cheap from what I can gather....

I already said, Ebay. Take your pick to assess the price and shipping. Besides, those power sellers are alright, never had anything sour so far all these years buying numerous things from Ebay.

A not so funny phenomenon is that prices for these vinyl related stuff have seemed escalated upwards since 2-3 years ago. They pose a more expensive price now especially in EU, but our exchange rate have appreciated, so they increase the price. What you pay for 2-3 years ago after exchange rate at THAT point of time and currently, works out close in Ringgit before and now. You just have to do some lengthy research if price, what you pay and ultimately a prudent purchase matters much. Having said that, there are some items that for reasons the manufacturer or dealer knows best, have risen as much as 50% or more since it appeared. Something initially marketed for US$100 or less, currently at US$160. Yes, vinyl related stuff prices are rising steadily due to demand and I'm in the opinion people will have to dig deep into their pockets. Look at re-issue LP's sold here.. REDICULOUSLY EXPENSIVE! Can approach RM300! GILA KAH!

[quote=" I've been thinking about Denon, but no one in KL seems to hold them, not even people who sell Denon products.[/quote]

Jedi...saw a few boxes of DENON carts at DESA HOME at Kepong. Never took notice of the Model.

Cheers

I got some spare ORTOFON MC20 ($200) that i not in use if anybody interested...happy with shure V15 type 3 and shure 97xe for time being

Jedi - link that advertise denon cart 103

https://www.hifi4sale.net/t21064-denon-dl103-dl-103r?highlight=denon

https://www.hifi4sale.net/t18431-denon-dl-103r-mc-cartridge-new?highlight=cartridge

http://www.mudah.my/Denon+famous+DL+103+Moving+Coil+MC+cartridge+NEW-11535773.htm

wingman wrote:
Jedi...saw a few boxes of DENON carts at DESA HOME at Kepong. Never took notice of the Model.
Cheers

Haw Haw! If its sold cheaply, it'll disappear as fast as you mention the place today!.. like desiring a sexy lady, you want, there's other people oso want..hahaah!

OTH, I have a strange feeling it could be some OEM Denon cart for their current range of plug n play Denon TT, not the moving coil types. I could be mistaken here though!

jedisavant wrote:
try making the tracking force a little lighter when you're playing the thick stuff...

perhaps this is not advisable. if tracing force is too light, the stylus may mistrack and damage the grooves.
it's best to set tracking force to the middle of the recommended tracking force range for all thicknesses of vinyl. for e.g. recommended tracking force - 1.5g to 2g, use 1.75g.


alphadog467,

perhaps u shld follow bassraptor's advice and adjust the vta.
btw what tonearm r u using?
if yr tonearm does not have vta adjustment feature, u may need a spacer.

also hv u tried other cartridge alignments? linn uses - if i'm not wrong - baerwald.

Shop in Megamall carries Denon turntables, receivers etc, and they said can only get Denon 103R at RM1800 but have to pay 50% deposit.... Yikes... The 103R are supposedly the 'reserve' line, catering to high end japanese tastes and can be a bit bright sounding....

....think we're going off topic here....

One small remedy I've found for tuning bass and high end response on vinyl would be to experiment with isolating methods for the phono stage... I've been using little blocks of wood with varying interesting results....

CM...

I could not have said it better....

"CM's Quote : you also take note and carefully research cartridge compliance and compatibility which I feel is very important, along with other critical tonearm setup measures."

Thinking of geting it locally if there is not much difference in pricing but its above my set threshold then its the WEB ....

MC Step up transformer.....hmmmm .....a "whif" of TT poison.... go for it....would there be any night and day difference

cheers

cmboy wrote:

wingman wrote:
Jedi...saw a few boxes of DENON carts at DESA HOME at Kepong. Never took notice of the Model.
Cheers

Haw Haw! If its sold cheaply, it'll disappear as fast as you mention the place today!.. like desiring a sexy lady, you want, there's other people oso want..hahaah!

I am at the shop already..... ....ha ha ha but .....

everyone is looking for the Denon Carts...which ever model....and the price sky rockets....just go get a Benz or Ortofon.....lah....

cheers

Hi Sflam,

Am using Ekos arm. At present, the tracking force is set at 2g. No complaints when playing regular records at this setting. This I can easily do but adjusting the VTA, err, ... how do I go about doing this? How much to adjust? Will I need some tools to do this properly? Please excuse my newbie questions. Will need some proper "training" from you guys to "graduate" in vinyl.

Thanks.

JediSavant wrote:Shop in Megamall carries Denon turntables, receivers etc, and they said can only get Denon 103R at RM1800 but have to pay 50% deposit.... Yikes... The 103R are supposedly the 'reserve' line, catering to high end japanese tastes and can be a bit bright sounding....

....think we're going off topic here....

One small remedy I've found for tuning bass and high end response on vinyl would be to experiment with isolating methods for the phono stage... I've been using little blocks of wood with varying interesting results....

wow so damn expensive...the link i attach just know selling below 1.2k

JediSavant wrote:The 103R are supposedly the 'reserve' line, catering to high end japanese tastes and can be a bit bright sounding.

I've never found it bright sounding from past experience with 103R. 103R is actually a very very good cartridge but better suited for heavier mass tonearms along with a well tuned TT rig. Install on some light to medium mass tonearms and I don't have enough words to describe some pending disaster.

Lastly, there's always system synergy of great importance at play. I think I won't elaborate on that area.

Ok lah, I think I tok too much aledy, got to have lunch and towards a busy work matters today.

have fun!

alphadog467 wrote:
Am using Ekos arm. At present, the tracking force is set at 2g. No complaints when playing regular records at this setting. This I can easily do but adjusting the VTA, err, ... how do I go about doing this? How much to adjust? Will I need some tools to do this properly?

i am not familiar with the ekos tonearm, but i found this in stereophile:

The Ekos, previously reviewed by John Atkinson in June 1989, is a no-nonsense design: a straight aluminum pipe with a bonded, machined headshell and ultra-low-tolerance bearings. The tracking and antiskating forces are set by springs. As with many arms that favor rigidity over infinite, on-the-fly VTA adjustability, the Ekos's arm height is set by raising and lowering the base support shaft within the mounting collar, then locking it with a set-screw.

i suppose u hv to look for the set screw, unscrew it and move the base up and down a couple of mm and then screw it tight again.
don't turn power on, place a 200g lp on the platter, lower the stylus onto the lp, then gently move the base up or down till the tonearm is parallel with the record surface. u hv to use yr eyes to chk whether it's parallel. once it's parallel, turn the set screw tight.

sflam wrote:don't turn power on, place a 200g lp on the platter, lower the stylus onto the lp, then gently move the base up or down till the tonearm is parallel with the record surface. u hv to use yr eyes to do that. once it's parallel, turn the set screw tight.

DO NOT LOWER stylus to record surface whilst adjusting on LP12. You're risking stylus bend or damage if with untrained hands, because there's suspension in play. I myself don't dare this method, perhaps more suitable if arm is on fixed plinth.

Gauge the current tube horizontal line with stylus on LP. Then with the arm back in resting place, unlock the allen grub screw and carefully moving column up or down minutely by rough estimate. Slightly tighten the grub screw, gauge the tube parallel again on the lp. Repeat this a number of times till get it parallel. For Ittok, after VTA is done, the arm rest clip height have to be adusted to coincide with change in VTA.

Sigh ... be careful of taking VTA advice from Rega owners!

Method described by sflam is safer if your arm has VTA-on-the-fly but since it doesn't, take the finnicky and harder route described by cmboy .... as insurance against any accidents.

Check the round base of the arm, you'll see the screw there. Remember, we're talking about just 2-3mm ...

VTA is obviously with your preferred cartridge in use, what if it was a say some Rm10k Koetsu or nevermind that, something that still cost quite a bundle? Would you temporarily swap it for some AT-91E and do VTA adjustment? Doesn't sound right does it? All you need on LP12 is an accidental and nasty swinging the tonearm right across the record surface from staionary sitting at one point of the LP, resulting in a useless dumb cartridge that was once transmitting beautiful music.

OK. having it perfectly parallel is a general instruction ideal, but of course you can tweak it up or down a lil more to your own personal preferences. Having said all that, we can only do so much with VTA and live with some degree of compromise. We may have all sorts and types of LP's in collection and the TT cannot possibly play every single disc with utmost precision. Its just not VTA alone that can make music sound bad, numerous other reasons or faults may exist.

cmboy wrote:Its just not VTA alone that can make music sound bad, numerous other reasons or faults may exist.

Yes, like the lack of RIAA equaliser ...

If playing 200gm LPs (or generally thicker than usual LPs) is causing too much bass, its likely because its throwing off the proper VTA angle. (Yes, do Google up VTA{vertical tracing/tracking angle} or SRA{stylus rake angle} in the context of LP playback). But as mentioned previously, this may NOT be the only cause of adding too much bass problems.

- Could it also be tracking force?
- or a bad Arm & cart combo having resonance in the audible bass regions and so happen a more heavyweight recorded LP is exciting these tonearm/cart combo resonances?
- How about a problematic arm's pivot bearing thats worn or damaged at certain pivot angles ?
- in the case of an LP12 (& most 3-point suspension decks), is your platter & the whole sub-assembly chassis really bouncing in a true pistonic motion when tapped? Or does it wobble about? If there is observable wobble in the springing motion, this is one of the major causes of bass-fatness during playback.
- the list goes on and on and on....
- or it could just due to placing the damn TT on an IKEA LACK table .. which really makes the sound "LACK" !

Bassraptor is right, Rega owners do NOT generally adjust VTA on their RB-tonearms and adjusting VTA is even frowned upon by R.G. himself.

But since everyone likes to harp on this VTA issue so much, here's my turn to have some fun as well:

Unless your VTA is off by like 15 degrees (which is probably beyond the adjustabililty of any home-style shimming of VTA lifter device, it shouldn't change the sound so much but more of a different "flavour" to the sound only.

Do NOT reduce tracking forces in the hopes of getting less bass. Tracking forces are properly determined by the cart maker so that the cantilever will deflect the proper amount and get its coil-magnet relationship in the proper alignment or "zone". Just set it within the mfg's recommended specs and if u have to err(error), err on the heavy side to be safe. Too light a tracking force and the stylus would vibrate uncontrollably more and wear out the LP grooves (and stylus) sooner.



Regarding the arm-height alignment methods ... go with cmboy's recommendation.
Don't follow sflam's methods unless you wanna destroy something (sorry sflam, but you're really shooting crap here on this one. LOL).

If the tonearm's base height is adjustable either by shimming, always alter the tonearm height ONLY when the stylus is securely lifted in the air and SWUNG away from the LP or platter. Better yet, tuck it back on its armrest. This way, in case you accidentally let the whole tonearm drop too much, your dear RM10K Koetsu cartridge would not go CRASHING into something.

Shim the tonearm base when you need to add VTA.

If the tonearm base is as low as can be and the cartridge-end is still drooping down when the cartridge has landed (too much VTA), you can install spacers in-between the cartridge & headshell to bring the tonearm back to horizontal but this will mean re-doing all the zenith alignment, counterweight readjustment, and azimuth alignment, & anti-skate, as well. And do remember you're altering the effective-mass combo of the tonearm & cart which may or may not induce audible low freq resonances during playback (but adding effective mass would shift the resonance point more towards infrasonic). Do make sure the spacers are non-magnetic...


If anyone wants to adjust VTA on the fly during playback, install one of those aftermarket VTA-Lifter mountings on the tonearm base.... and then you might also realise that mucking around with it again doesn't really change the sound by a night-day effect.


Capacitance in the AIME phono is more to tailor the treble response curve for MC carts. If you're playing MM, its recommended that all Capacitative loadings be turned off. But you also really don't know whats the proper Cap loading unless you have a test-tone record, and a spectrum analyser to properly measure the flatness of your cart & phono combo. Anything else, and its just as good as fiddling with the amp's treble tone knobs.

...Or you can just pay someone to do all this if all the above seems way too much info.

Mugen is surely the greatest.

mugenfoo wrote:





Bassraptor is right, Rega owners do NOT generally adjust VTA on their RB-tonearms and adjusting VTA is even frowned upon by R.G. himself.

when i changed cartridge from rega exact to benz glider, i had to use a spacer. adjusting vta the way i described was how it was done by the sifu who changed the cartridge for me. perhaps this method is ok for a non-bouncy tt.

rega now makes spacers; so maybe roy gandy has seen the light.

Rega offer only a compromised VTA adjusment with spacers. Its only near best solution to owners insisting some VTA adjustment. Of course there's 3rd party VTA adjusters (not entirely designed for the Rega) and some of them require boring a bigger hole to accomodate the adjuster. Unless you're equipped with a drill press and a precision Forstner cutting bit, don't mess with the Rega plinth and devalue the resale price. With my Rega I use a suitable 4mm spacer and thats it, accept it as an ideal situation.

OTH, I've found VTA adjustment quite critical and a difference much more apparent on the LP12 than on a Rega. Since VTA adjustment is a provided feature on a Ittok, Ekos or other well engineered arms, might as well make full use of it and tweak the tonearm for optimum performance whenever the need for adjustment.

Um, silly Billy here, but like, it say the Rega isn't affected with this VTA issue that much if at all, doesn't it make sense to go with a system that doesnt require so much fluffing around....and go for one that takes the hassle out of playing music??

The issue in this thread seems to be not the cart, but the thickness of the Licorice Pizza being spun.....

don't fret too much over all these VTA and whatever. An LP playback system is never perfect anyways. Same thing, its not worth the time obsessing over vinyl thickness and the such.

Here's why:
If one wants to get into the maths behind the angle variance due to LP thickness .. its really only a few tenths of a degree between a RCA dynaflex and a 200gm "audiophile" LP. Lets say this is a 2mm thickness variance here.

lets say height of cartridge = 20mm, effective length (stylus point to tonearm base) = 230mm (linn geometry)
Hypoteneuse = sqrt(20^2 + 230^2) = sqrt(400+52900) = 230.87mm
angle from cartridge top to pivot mount = arcsin(20/230.87) = 4.968 degrees.

If height was changed to 22mm, eff. length still = 230mm,
Hypoteneuse = sqrt (22^2 + 230^2) = 484+52900 = 231.05mm
new angle = arcsin(22/231.05) = 5.463 degrees.

For a typical Linn mounting, if u vary the tonearm height (or LP thickness) by 2mm (which is alot!) , you only get an angle difference of (5.463-4.968) = 0.495 degrees!

So its really not worth sweating over this fraction of a degree VTA adjustment to account for various LP thickness, unless you're a real anal-retentive person...

JediSavant wrote:The issue in this thread seems to be not the cart, but the thickness of the Licorice Pizza being spun.....

So as u can see (calculate actually) from my previous example, the LP thickness is really a non-issue here.

Precisely.... But then why is that the OP is getting such a vast difference in bass quality from such minute irrelevant differences?

JediSavant wrote:Precisely.... But then why is that the OP is getting such a vast difference in bass quality from such minute irrelevant differences?

so it's probably due to something else !

And BTW, one neat trick in getting a Rega TT with a Rega cart to sound better, would be to abandon that stupid 3rd screw alignment and do a PROPER gauge job on it. Baerwald is just fine.

I would reserve my judgement on that till the OP carries out said vta adjustments or the great Mugen does a house call to get to the bottom of this curious matter..

....and raising the damn thing up on some custom Jedi wood blocks.... Tightens up the sound like a mother grooving vice.... Butnalso need a piece ofmmarble beneath the wood.....

from personal experience, improper overhang can also wreck havoc on bass reproduction, amongst other things.

in order to fully appreciate the effects of (mis)alignment, its good to play around that that tonearm alignment excel calculator (available from vinylengine.com i think) and key in a few manual numbers .. just to see how the error curves change and where the null points move towards , or in the case of extremely messed up alignment, having just 1 or no null points (means the cart will track poorly across the entire playing surface).


Back to the VTA saga ..... as long as the tonearm is horizontal and carries the cartridge squarely, one need not fuss over VTA like a neurosis. Besides, modern LPs are cut at 20deg. VTA, give or take a few degrees depending on the cutter lathe. Pre 1970s records were cut at 15deg. VTA. So does this means that in order to play slightly vintage records, one is gonna shim or drop the tonearm by a few cm just to accommodate that 5 degree difference ? ... I guess not.

And all those vintage playback cartridges set at 15deg (like a Shure M55E) would all have worn out stylii or have its rubber O-rings hardened already.
And those vintage carts with their built-tolerances at the time are no match for even today's budget entry level carts.

mugenfoo wrote:
lets say height of cartridge = 20mm, effective length (stylus point to tonearm base) = 230mm (linn geometry)
Hypoteneuse = sqrt(400+52900) = 230.87mm
angle from cartridge top to pivot mount = arcsin(20/230.87) = 4.968 degrees.

If height was changed to 22mm, eff. length still = 230mm,
Hypoteneuse = sqrt (22^2+230+2) = 484+52900 = 231.05mm
new angle = arcsin(22/231.05) = 5.463 degrees.

For a typical Linn mounting, if u vary the tonearm height (or LP thickness) by 2mm (which is alot!) , you only get an angle difference of (5.463-4.968) = 0.495 degrees!

aisay man, didn't know u were a mathematician too...

nope... simple secondary school maths doesn't quite qualify to be a mathematician yet.

Okaaaay ....

After hearing all the Vinyl sifus deliberate, I have decided to either (1) seek professional help (as in pay a pro to fix it) or (2) stick to listening regular LPs.

Many thanks guys! U guys rock!

Where do you live, alphadog?