To "Pre" Or Not To "Pre"?

Hi Sifus,

What are the pros and cons of using a pre? If more pros than cons, should we then use passive or active? And, whether TVC or Resistive passives?

Thank you in advance.

No one can recommend whats best for you. A rule of the thumb is if a power amplifier is of low sentitivity, better off with an active pre-amp with better gain which will result in better sonic quality. Less components or stages will have better transparenty and coloration, perhaps truer to the source material sonics. For example, there are always some people who are quite happy with simply a cd player (with its own digital volume control) to power amp (or power amp with own gain control) until such time they feel they need or can afford some change or additional preamp. Ultimately is all up to you which and what you'll prefer. You're the one listening to it for sometime, not others. One man's meat is another man's poison.

Pre or not pre? So easy, just loan a gud preamp back n u will know the answer.
For me, tube preamp is a must, without it got no omp...
Tvc will isolate the noise up stream but resistor don't . So try to get a pair of sowter tvc n built them in your active pre...

it really depends on yr system and needs.

for e.g. if u hv a wadia cd player or dac with built-in volume control, u don't need a pre. it actually sounds better without a pre.

many higher-end dacs come with built-in volume controls. if u hv these, u don't need a pre.

i use a benchmark dac1 pre which has a built-in pre and it can match standalone preamps costing RM8,000 plus. it'll lose out to top-end purpose-built pres which cost a fortune.

i wld not recommend passive pres despite what other people say abt less circuitry in the signal path is better. this is becos passive pres tend to sound thin and undynamic.


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You still need an analogue Preamp.

By the way, I hv access to a friend's High End Wadia Studio Master Dac with volume control, still better going thru an analogue pre.

It all boils down to person shopping around, perhaps borrow and test out, bring rig to hifishop and see what he prefers. Everyone have own view or opinion whats best. Yah!..try recommending something specific as to brand or type and you may see daggers waiting to stab you.

Thank you guys.

I actually have ss, tube and hybrid pres and have tried changing "partners" around and found that my tube pre cant match with my ss power amp. The gain was simply too much and I cant even play at 7 o' clock. And my ss pre has low gain......

Am a bit hesitant to use the hybrid as it "rewarded" me with a big lound bang for wrong switching off sequence. Fortunately, my speakers didnt explode.

The only pre I didnt try was passive and feed back from those who have used them are mixed, some like it, some dont.

A friend is using TVC with Steven and Billington tranny and is happy with it.

I guess it boils down to getting the right match

passive pres with transformer volume control like the TVC with Steven and Billington tend to sound richer than a simple passive pre.

a local company called promitheus also makes TVC-based passive pres.

sflam wrote:passive pres with transformer volume control like the TVC with Steven and Billington tend to sound richer than a simple passive pre.

a local company called promitheus also makes TVC-based passive pres.

Yes, I am aware of the local manufacturer. Thanks.

VS126 wrote: By the way, I hv access to a friend's High End Wadia Studio Master Dac with volume control, still better going thru an analogue pre.

Thanks.

Think I play around with pre first.

Get lah something like Kondo topline Preamp.

You just need to sell one of yr cars.

Rocketman, look like u got gain mismatch. To play with your hi gain tube preamp, u may want a lower output dac to match.

If money is not a problem, why not going for top line kondo's line stage...

I am sure money is not a problem for you, Mr Rocketman.

Kondo's pre is magical.

Get the KSL M7 or KSL m77

Hi Rocketman, you ought to be careful in choosing preamp, this is by virtue of requirement and not by choice; when signal is fed from DAc or phono amp, the signal is weak, hence valnerable and susceptible to distortion. Distortion in music signal, if added, when it is amplified, distortion will be amplified together with the music signal; on the other hand, if the music signal is capped or jumbled up, when amplied, you lost its dynamic capacity, its contrast, etc.

I was using passive preamp for many years, before I changed to valve pre, I was very happy with the tonal purity and never questioned the 'subtractive' nature of it. My first valve pre that I fell in love was using ECC33 tube in single stage driving design, very smiple circuitry. I also own another tube pre based on 2 x ECC83 design. Eventhough I am using ss pre now, I like all of them. This is the reason why I still keep them.

I have tried several dac too, which I could run without my pre, and I could hear the common signature of the sound on such. I like system with pre.

What power amp you have?

Jo Ki

VS126 wrote:Get lah something like Kondo topline Preamp.

You just need to sell one of yr cars.

And walk to work? Bad idea.

[quote="VS126"]I am sure money is not a problem for you, Mr Rocketman.

/quote]

How I wish.

jokiarch wrote:

What power amp you have?

Jo Ki

Got a few old junks like Quad 306/606, Quad II monoblocks and Eico HF12 monoblocks.

jokiarch wrote:Hi Rocketman, you ought to be careful in choosing preamp, this is by virtue of requirement and not by choice; when signal is fed from DAc or phono amp, the signal is weak, hence valnerable and susceptible to distortion. Distortion in music signal, if added, when it is amplified, distortion will be amplified together with the music signal; on the other hand, if the music signal is capped or jumbled up, when amplied, you lost its dynamic capacity, its contrast, etc.

Thanks Joki.

I subscribe to that and believe that I might have a mismatched problem. It gives me the urge to want to wipe the slate clean and start all over again roll:

123_rocketman wrote:

jokiarch wrote:

What power amp you have?

Jo Ki

Got a few old junks like Quad 306/606, Quad II monoblocks and Eico HF12 monoblocks.

How about selling me the old junks?

Hi rocketman,
What speaker r u using? How's sensitivity?

Got a few old junks like Quad 306/606, Quad II monoblocks and Eico HF12 monoblocks.[/quote]
Rocketman,

I can take over yr junk, bro. Ease you of all the misery.

noodle88 wrote:Hi rocketman,
What speaker r u using? How's sensitivity?

I have various; from vintage to full range, 8" to 15". Sensitivities vary from 85 to 96 db.

VS126 wrote:Got a few old junks like Quad 306/606, Quad II monoblocks and Eico HF12 monoblocks.

Rocketman,

I can take over yr junk, bro. Ease you of all the misery.[/quote]

In exchange for your friend's MBL (Pre, CDP and Power amp)? What are friends for.

Then I will have a well matched system.

123_rocketman wrote:

jokiarch wrote:

What power amp you have?

Jo Ki

Got a few old junks like Quad 306/606, Quad II monoblocks and Eico HF12 monoblocks.

Hi Rocketman, I was using Quad 22 with my Quad II mono, and my English friend dropped in Sam Lim Tower in Singapore while enroute to KL; he spent S$11.60 buying the parts (all the cheapest - 2 mono volume pots, 1M long cable and 4 rca connectors) and soldered in my house for a naked passive pre which completely knock-out my Quad 22 and reducing it into "nothingness"!

Since then, I looked for a descent passive. The one made by my friend is just to prove a point he was making, not meant to be used for prolong period of time. My Cello Etude comes after this conundrum.

I still keep my Quad II mono and subsequently bought 3 additional pairs, and one unit for the spare parts. So I know what goes well with it if you are keen to know.

Jo Ki

123_rocketman wrote:

noodle88 wrote:Hi rocketman,
What speaker r u using? How's sensitivity?

I have various; from vintage to full range, 8" to 15". Sensitivities vary from 85 to 96 db.

Hmm.. I think I know what kind of audiophile you are Rocketman. If my guess is correct, you would know my fellow good friend KY in Seremban? He is a forum member too. May be he could give you some advice, which is from different angle to mine, sort of giving you alternatives for you to consider before you take the plunge.

Tannoy?

Jo Ki

jokiarch wrote:

123_rocketman wrote:

noodle88 wrote:Hi rocketman,
What speaker r u using? How's sensitivity?

I have various; from vintage to full range, 8" to 15". Sensitivities vary from 85 to 96 db.

Hmm.. I think I know what kind of audiophile you are Rocketman. If my guess is correct, you would know my fellow good friend KY in Seremban? He is a forum member too. May be he could give you some advice, which is from different angle to mine, sort of giving you alternatives for you to consider before you take the plunge.

Tannoy?

Jo Ki

Sorry. I have no idea who KY is but dont mind to meet and learn from him. Would appreciate all advice from all sifus out there.

Not using Tannoy but drooling over vintage Altec Lansing A5, A7 or Khorns. But got to get rid of some speakers to clear space.

I really admire how you managed to keep so many pairs of LS3/5A in your place

every drop of my 0.75wpc should not be wasted, i am in dire need to have my signal appropriately managed!!! without a preamp, my setup sounded lifeless without dynamics, power not unfolded and music re-presented without any sense of seriousness many fools advised me to get bigger power amplifier without knowing the need to "salvage" from my inappropriate starting point ie flea power amplification ha... i do admit mistakes as i am one who doesn't believe in regrets but appropriate corrections, adjustments etc!

at this juncture, i have learnt that it is not meaningful to use bigger power to compensate my then lackadaisical signal, otherwise it could be as bad as to "brighten up" a photo which was in the first place underexposed!!! as bad as sex without drive?


that said, preamps could do much detriments too!!! i have learnt from audition of 3 setups with classic power amplifiers, alas everything was "led to hell"

you want to know these classics




be careful!!!

Rocketman, I think u have to sell your speaker n go buy the pair of K Horn in Singapore . Last week I been to Singapore, wanted to have a look at K Horn but don't have the time. Might try to go next month...

Hmmmm.... for me, the only 'KY' that comes to mind are those displayed at Guardian, Watsons, etc... Sorry, sorry, didn't mean to make fun of a name, but couldn't resist. As they say HOMs.....

I am one who feels that a good passive pre-amp, transformer based like the TVC can sound good and I have heard them sound good in a high-end system before. But I have also heard plenty of 'active' pre-amp sound very good as well. In the end, I believe that what matters most is matching. The pre-power is a combo and they should work as a combo. This means not only the sonic character but also the electrical characteristics. So if they match and work well as a pair, it really doesn't matter if the pre is passive or active, tube or s/s, and so forth.

Some of the things that comes to mind, of my experiences over the years is how Mark Levinson amps seems to work best with each other but not always with Krell. I have heard a CAT SL-1 Signature with Mark Levinson No. 23.5 power and the combo didn't gel at all, despite both being quite 'at the top' of their class at that time. They sound so lack-lustre, no energy to the music. Neither did a Krell KRC with the same ML 23.5. I remember some old but very experiences audiophiles once advised me that the safest bet is to 'get a whole suit', meaning get the pre and power from the same brand - phono pre is OK to be different. And I tend to believe in that. The only thing so far that I have not heard really work that well is a source directly into a power amp, even those CD players for e.g. which has built in volume control. Somehow they don't seem to able to drive the power amp that well, though there are a few exceptions here and there.

My suggestion is to try a Quad-Quad pre-power combo. They should work well and is probably the safest bet and value for money. Of course if you are rich like this guy I know, you can always buy an FM Acoustics pre to match with the Quad monobloc. That works very well too, I can attest to it.

WongKN wrote:Hmmmm....

...

My suggestion is to try a Quad-Quad pre-power combo. They should work well and is probably the safest bet and value for money. Of course if you are rich like this guy I know, you can always buy an FM Acoustics pre to match with the Quad monobloc. That works very well too, I can attest to it.

Wa! Low Blow referee! Ha.. I was reading so deeply and .. comes this. Be careful, your platforms may be ended up in Klang River.

Rocketman is intouch, I am willing to loan him those preamps for him to try out. I think he will not be disappointed.

Jo Ki

123_rocketman wrote:.. snipe...
Sorry. I have no idea who KY is but dont mind to meet and learn from him. Would appreciate all advice from all sifus out there.

Not using Tannoy but drooling over vintage Altec Lansing A5, A7 or Khorns. But got to get rid of some speakers to clear space.

I really admire how you managed to keep so many pairs of LS3/5A in your place

Well, please do not admire me having so many of the same speakers, it was (and still is) plain silly to own more than one pair of the same speakers; this is especially true during those days when the past owners decided to dump their unwanted speakers at my place, which is in fact, a dumping ground.

Anyway, you should be getting my PM reply, I am confident that you will not be disappointed with my preamp.

Jo Ki

jokiarch wrote:

123_rocketman wrote:.. snipe...
Sorry. I have no idea who KY is but dont mind to meet and learn from him. Would appreciate all advice from all sifus out there.

Not using Tannoy but drooling over vintage Altec Lansing A5, A7 or Khorns. But got to get rid of some speakers to clear space.

I really admire how you managed to keep so many pairs of LS3/5A in your place

Well, please do not admire me having so many of the same speakers, it was (and still is) plain silly to own more than one pair of the same speakers; this is especially true during those days when the past owners decided to dump their unwanted speakers at my place, which is in fact, a dumping ground.

Anyway, you should be getting my PM reply, I am confident that you will not be disappointed with my preamp.

Jo Ki

Hi JoKi,

Thanks for the offer.

Have replied your PM.

Will try that before contacting you.

Thanks again.

noodle88 wrote:Rocketman, I think u have to sell your speaker n go buy the pair of K Horn in Singapore . Last week I been to Singapore, wanted to have a look at K Horn but don't have the time. Might try to go next month...

Ya. Good suggestion. Will try to off-load some of my speakers to clear space before I even dare thinking of Khones. They are hugh and heavy man.

Having said that, I might open up the Pandora's box and start hunting for the electronics to match. Although I have heard of my friend's set up, I might not be able to afford the same SET which cost an arm and a leg

WongKN gave the right answer - the most important consideration for a preamp is whether it matches with the power amp electrically. Or put more formally, the impedance ratio (output impedance of preamp to input impedance of power amp) should be at least 1:10. If it is any less than this, you will lose dynamics, and lose the lower frequencies which will "thin out" the sound.

If you use any passive preamp (TVC, Lightspeed Attenuator, stepped volume control, etc etc) then the impedance ratio between the source (DAC, CDP, Phono stage, etc) and power amp is critical. This is because the passive preamps ADDS to the impedance and WORSENS the impedance ratio. This is not to say that passive preamps won't work - you could have a power amp with a very, very high input impedance which will be more forgiving for your passive preamp. Or you could have a source with a very, very low output impedance.

The other factor is the input sensitivity of your power amp. If your source outputs less than the full voltage required my your power amp to produce full output, you may find that you do not have enough volume if you use a passive preamp.

ALL preamps are system dependent, but passive preamps are even more so. There are trade-offs whichever way you decide to go - if you go for the purer and cleaner sound of a passive preamp, be aware that you MIGHT lose bass and you may not have enough volume. If you go for an active preamp, you get the dynamics and full frequency but you might lose some purity of sound.

I also have something to say about digital volume control - don't use it, it's crap. Digital volume control works by throwing away bits, thereby bringing the signal closer to the digital noise floor. Ideally, for a digital system, you want the output to be as high as possible to get away from the noise floor, but not so high that you start to compress dynamics. There are only two companies that have non-lossy digital attenuators - Wadia and DCS.

I also have something to say about digital volume control - don't use it, it's crap. Digital volume control works by throwing away bits, thereby bringing the signal closer to the digital noise floor. Ideally, for a digital system, you want the output to be as high as possible to get away from the noise floor, but not so high that you start to compress dynamics. There are only two companies that have non-lossy digital attenuators - Wadia and DCS. .

If not mistaken, Krell, Mark Levinson,Sonic Frontier..also using digital volume control

From my experience if the power amp is loud and dynamic enough to drive the speaker then using pasive volume pot without preamp may give you a more natural sound. This more applicable to those who use high power amp like solid state amp or push pull tube amp.

For those who use low power SET, preamp will help on the dynamic and better drive, unless your are using very high sensitity /very easy drived speaker.

For those who use SET and the DAC is bypassing the OPA (means no gain/reduce gain), the signal is too small that a preamp become a MUST in order to obtain proper volume level and to drive the speaker properly.

of cause the impedance matching is another consideration.
e.g my pasive voloume pot will have noise when place immediately after the DAC, and no noise when place after the tube buffer/pre amp.