Re: Sonus Faber - discussion thread

[Bite]

Hi Opera,

my 5 sen worth. I have not had the opportunity to listen to the Concerto but lived with a SF floorstander for a while & had the C7es for a spell.

In my case i found the sound of the SF more coloured, better outlined and it made voices rich and a pleasure to listen to. However I found it wasnt as "honest" as the 7es. Vocals thru the Harbeth were more natural and more transparent. It was easier to capture the inflections/nuances of human voice.

Which is better? well that depends on how you prefer to listen to vocals and also will depend upon your upstream electronics. As you well know, "warm electronics " will just accentuate the richness and perhaps to the extent where you can hold out your toast in the mornings with vocals playing and not need to put the jam on :-)

afraid you'll have to trust your ears.

rgs

[tycham]

Hi Opera,


However I found it wasnt as "honest" as the 7es.
afraid you'll have to trust your ears.

rgs

Geez! What a way to describe a speaker!

[hifikaki]

Wah Lawken, how you manage to find many pair of rare SF, very nice Extrema..Just bought a pair Cremona, no yet set up, still looking for an integrated Amp and CD player, any suggestion?

[lawken]

Wah Lawken, how you manage to find many pair of rare SF, very nice Extrema..Just bought a pair Cremona, no yet set up, still looking for an integrated Amp and CD player, any suggestion?

Hi Hifikaki,


Thks for an applause. Due to my experience, SF Musica int is good enough for Cremona.....look for the used one price under RM8k. If hv u no budget limit, can go for Jeff Rowland int amp. such as concerto. sound airy & sweet. Jeff Rw 8Ti martching with Guarneri is My best sounding ever been. but cant drive Extrema. Dun try for krell int becos it's too fast & dynamic.( depend wht music u like to, jazz or vocal is not siutable)

All the while i only admiring Meridian CDp....from 208, 507, 508 and now 588. such a pioneer digital manufacturer in England....very clean & an accurate tonal. (very good piano sound extension) U shud try.But my dream cdp was NAGRA CDC. bracing when met it in Adrian's hifi shop. widest soundstage & analog like Vinyl. Non fatigue palyer.

[lawken]

i think i will faint......paiseh wanna post up my low end rig....i tot mine was ok
now hv term my one low end liao....respect!

Hi hushymushy,


We should happy because we're SF owner here. We jz sharing our good & bad one, no such comparison r here. As i said, i juz wana to share to all here and never thought of SF low-end or hi-end. HI FI is juz our hobby. We're all music lover right?

We hope to see ur set-up here.

[lawken]

Wah Lawken, how you manage to find many pair of rare SF, very nice Extrema..Just bought a pair Cremona, no yet set up, still looking for an integrated Amp and CD player, any suggestion?

hifikaki,

Forgot to ask u. Did ur Cremona bought it from Loyhifi feller? if yes, i did know where is from. U shud keep it untill u die. Look at her body shape & sound,,,beautiful man!!

[ryder]

As usual it depends on listening preferences as to which speaker will suit one's taste better. Most lower to mid-range Sonus Faber speakers which include the Cremona line are coloured with a distinctive warm and glowing sound which some may find pleasant. The only neutral speaker in the Sonus Faber line that has incredibly low-level coloration is the Guarneri Homage apart from the Amati. Due to the truly balanced characteristic of the Guarneri that is extremely truthful to its source, it was said to be superior to the bigger Extrema and Electa Amator.

On the other hand, all current Harbeth speakers from the smallest to biggest model share a strikingly strong resemblance in sonic signature. This owes to the fact that there is only one designer for the current line of Harbeth speakers which is Alan Shaw. All speakers are voiced similarly except for the Monitor line which slightly deviates from the other speakers that are designed for home environment since they are developed more towards studio use. Harbeth speakers will sound more natural than the lower range in the SF line of speakers.

For folks who prefer a more exciting and dynamic sound with fast pace and attack, Harbeth and Sonus Fabers will not be too suitable. There are other speakers that can do better. However, these speakers would be perfect for those looking for a smooth and easy-going sound without any listening fatigue.

[ed]

Hi,

Through Harbeths, I find that the human voice more natural. it is easy to drive and sounds good with most amps, even budget ones. Have been a user for many years and never felt the urge to switch to others. Have owned P3, HL5, C7 and at present M30. If you love vocals this is the gold standard. Give it a try... you won't regret it!

Cheers.

[Opera]

Actually, I'm owning a pair of SF Concerto Home. Just happened that my friend bring his Compact 7 to my place for a comparison and felt that the human voice is much acceptable by my ears. Maybe as you all mentioned "natural".

Possible my system doesn't match with my spk.

[ryder]

Hi Opera,

Since you own the SF Concerto Home and have listened to the Compact 7ES in your own system, I think that is the best evaluation you can have by experiencing both speakers yourself. I guess you want to have a second opinion coming up with this thread in believing that human voice sounds more realistic with the Compact 7ES compared to your Concerto Home. I have owned the Grand Piano Concerto for 3 years and have experience with the Extrema. I can tell you it has got little to do with system matching. The fact is the Harbeth is a more neutral speaker and sounds more natural than the Concerto Home and the Cremona line.

The reason why human voice sounds more realistic with the Harbeth is because Harbeth loudspeakers are designed based on BBC tradition whereby broadcasting is primarily about speech and vocal reproduction. Natural tone, timbre and harmonics of real instruments and human voice will be reproduced in a wholly natural manner with Harbeth speakers. This is made possible with the use of the Radial driver which is manufactured in-house in the Harbeth factory apart from the complex crossover design. The cabinet with removable front and back panels(sometimes called a "lossy" cabinet) also helps in creating a low coloration cabinet which further contributes to the natural sound of Harbeth speakers.

I don't know what model is your friend's Compact 7, but if you have a chance to audition the Compact 7ES-3, you might be even more surprised. The 7ES-3 was an improvement to the 7ES-2 especially with the incorporation of the new Radial2 driver.

[Bite]

Mornin Ryder and Opera,

Read both your posts and well said Ryder.

I agree with your assessment that the Harbeths are more neutral and with voices. I enjoyed my time with the SF on classicals and jazz quartets. However my diet of music moved on to a wider genre and I found the need to move on to a slightly more neutral speaker.

Both the SF and Harbeths come from good lineage though originating from different countries and cultural backdrop. However they do share some common ground in that they were both developed by men of strong personalities Mr. Seblin and Mr. Shaw. I understand the recent Elipsa and Cremona M however were developed by a different team.

Both men shared a similar goal to develop speakers that one could ideally keep for many years to come.

The line of SF and Harbeth speakers follow the design philosophy of their respective designers and therefore will exhibit a distinct signature sound by and large.

In that regard, the Guarneri Homage is the least coloured and most balanced in the SF range albeit still exhibiting the mid-range characteristics of the SF lineage. I believe the Guarneri tracks more faithfully the design philosophy of Mr. Serblin who in his early days believed that there was no need for a big sound in the home. This was tempered by the difficulties he encountered in developing "good bass".

Well we all know that he moved on from there and his fears with bass were actually IMO well founded. This is reflected in what I have found to be problematic with the Cremona and Amati.

Mr. Serblins goal when he designed the Amati was to design a full range, modern speaker, fast but still full bodied. This translates to a tonal balance that i would describe as warm, lush in the mids although more resolving and tight. It therefore still exhibits the SF mid range characteristic and its rear ported design made placement in a less than well designed room problematic with effects on the tonal balance in the lower register.

Sorry got carried away. Anyway Opera do listen to the ES3 and preferably with your equipment. I found different equipment made a big difference when listening to the ES3.

I leave you with a quote from Mr. Serblin " nothing sounds better than thing that arent." I have a long journey ahead of me and will catch up on goings on through this site upon my return.


Good luck in your respective endeavours.

Bite

[hifikaki]

Lawken,
Yes, i got the cremona from Loyhifi, and the SF look fabulous, that is the main reason i buy it hehe.. I place my hifi at my living hall, so the look is important

My init budget for hifi is 20k and the SF already took more that half so have to settle for intergrated amp first.
You have experience with musica b4? I own a Gryphon intergrated amp Callista 2200, very transparent sound, but sold it lio..
For CD palyer, i still missed my previous Marantz player, warm and sweet sound..

[lawken]

hifikaki,

Ur Cremona spks is well kept by the last owner.No wori!! (Driven by full range of Audio Research cdp & amp. Reference line series)

I seen ur Gryphon advertisement b4 in old HIFI4sale site, u shud keep it. Much power can feed to Cremona. But only thing is Callisto 2200 easy to encounter problem if used for few yr after. Ya, been audited many times with Musica.....emm leading u to soft tendency, if for impact bass wanted by u, i think this amp unsuitable.Gryphon is more rich in these field.

For cdp, ya i agree wht u'd said. Marantz cd given more warm sound.....in recently i been visited one fren of mine, owned a Marantz cd94, but it's modded full of 'tonic" in. (jz for the parts cost it over 10K, in this cdp each section supplied by a stand alone power-supply, total 3 in & 2 external,all seperately. Result good in soundstage (wide & deep enough), transparency , image so shimmer & can touchable.Most musical Marantz cdp i ever been listened. (but not an original oredi) sssso impress. Even the Marantz cd7 is still cannot defeat it.

Be frankly talking, i'm jz a hifi superficial one, & still need more advise frm many of M'sia's hifi veterans.But i must declare, we're listener & long period listen to ours system sound, like no other, if compared more we only spend more money.TRY to Maximum exerting our current owned system, No one brand is bad only how u change or improve it. After, u will know ur effort is there.

[ryder]

Hi Bite,

Good observation from you as well. I guess we have struck a common understanding in our thoughts on both speakers that are being discussed.


Hi Opera,

Before I forget, although a system can be improved by matching the amp to the speaker, the speaker will determine how a system would sound like as the component that contributes most to the overall character of the sound is the speaker. That is the reason folks always choose the speaker that they prefer and then maximise the system by finding the right amp to drive it.

Another point to note is the Harbeth Compact 7ES has been compared to higher-calibre speakers in Audiogon which include the Dynaudio C1 and Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor to name a few. The Concerto Home is not exactly the equivalent of the Compact 7ES. An audio enthusiast has compared the Compact 7ES-3 to the Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage but in the end chose the SHL-5. The link is as below.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1238116030&openfrom&1&4#1

This is a testament to the quality of Harbeth speakers although I have to admit the price of Harbeth speakers is higher in the US that has made comparison to speakers in the higher-priced bracket possible.

Whatever your decision, let your ears be the judge as people have different taste and listening preferences. The sound you like may not appeal to another person and as they say, one man's meat is another man's poison.

Good luck.

[tycham]

hifikaki,



For cdp, ya i agree wht u'd said. Marantz cd given more warm sound.....in recently i been visited one fren of mine, owned a Marantz cd94, but it's modded full of 'tonic" in. (jz for the parts cost it over 10K, in this cdp each section supplied by a stand alone power-supply, total 3 in & 2 external,all seperately. Result good in soundstage (wide & deep enough), transparency , image so shimmer & can touchable.Most musical Marantz cdp i ever been listened. (but not an original oredi) sssso impress. Even the Marantz cd7 is still cannot defeat it.

Awesome modification! Where did your friend do it? Is the DAC still the Philips TDA1541A S1? Without modification this machine is already an excellent one.

How is the holographic image?

thanks in advance and hope you can share these info.

[lawken]

hifikaki,



For cdp, ya i agree wht u'd said. Marantz cd given more warm sound.....in recently i been visited one fren of mine, owned a Marantz cd94, but it's modded full of 'tonic" in. (jz for the parts cost it over 10K, in this cdp each section supplied by a stand alone power-supply, total 3 in & 2 external,all seperately. Result good in soundstage (wide & deep enough), transparency , image so shimmer & can touchable.Most musical Marantz cdp i ever been listened. (but not an original oredi) sssso impress. Even the Marantz cd7 is still cannot defeat it.

Awesome modification! Where did your friend do it? Is the DAC still the Philips TDA1541A S1? Without modification this machine is already an excellent one.

How is the holographic image?

thanks in advance and hope you can share these info.

Hi tycham,

Yes, this cdp is still remain its double DAC chips.but he did supplied each power supply for each dac.( iF I'M NOT MISTAKEN). He did ask someone very good in mod technic in M'sia KL. And this player in-out for mod more than 10 over times.but much vary after mod in every time back. Ofcos it will get more improvement after 2 weeks run-in.

I noticed in Singapore hv one famous mod SIFU also.named TS Lim right? Are u using Marantz cdp as well?

[tycham]

Hi lawken

Thanks for the info. I think TS Lim usually mod the CD63SE. I am using the Quad CD66 whih utilise the same DAC as the CD94.

The only deviation in my machine after servicing is the change of the 6800uF 16V capacitor to a 10000uF one for the circuit supplying power to the laser unit. Maybe the old laser need a bigger push to function correctly, and probably if push too much would just die.

[hifikaki]

hifikaki,

For cdp, ya i agree wht u'd said. Marantz cd given more warm sound.....in recently i been visited one fren of mine, owned a Marantz cd94, but it's modded full of 'tonic" in. (jz for the parts cost it over 10K, in this cdp each section supplied by a stand alone power-supply, total 3 in & 2 external,all seperately. Result good in soundstage (wide & deep enough), transparency , image so shimmer & can touchable.Most musical Marantz cdp i ever been listened. (but not an original oredi) sssso impress. Even the Marantz cd7 is still cannot defeat it.

Be frankly talking, i'm jz a hifi superficial one, & still need more advise frm many of M'sia's hifi veterans.But i must declare, we're listener & long period listen to ours system sound, like no other, if compared more we only spend more money.TRY to Maximum exerting our current owned system, No one brand is bad only how u change or improve it. After, u will know ur effort is there.

wow, for 10k upgrade alone it cost more than my previous Marantz CD7 new from Sing.

[lawken]

Hi tycham,

OIC, i think Quad 66 is more warmer than normal cd94, as my previous experience audition in fren's house. In M'sia not much hifi fellow own this Quad66 CDP.But quad has its own trend. I also heard sm of news related to TS Lim....he had modded many of cd63s in S'pore.

[yew_jeff]

Hi Opera,

Go for SF,
Why? Because it sound & look good. Furthermore, the 2nd hand value are good enough for you to keep for long long time.
I tell my story, when i first saw SF in Audio Image (SS2) in 1993 (Electa Amator), i wonder why this speaker are so dam heavy and sound so good. Adrian Wong of Audio Image like to toe in the SF speaker so deep (>30 degree) and drive with either Audible Illusion or Krell. That moment we are still student ($ talak cukup), his face really tak boleh pakai. But his set up skill is professional.

After that we went to the opposite street of Tropical Audio for Harbeth, I can say this speaker are very very good in vocal, that moment match with Quad. Sad to say that bass still not up to my expectation (May be younger time like to rock a bit).

Therefore, i would like to propose, go for SF.

[auronthas]

Update from first thread after minor room acoustic, i.e. adding in diffusors, bass trap/absorption panels, oil painting. I can feel a much better, lively, musical soundstage. Just to share.

Cheers,

Auronthas

[Opera]

Hi lawken

Thanks for the info. I think TS Lim usually mod the CD63SE. I am using the Quad CD66 whih utilise the same DAC as the CD94.

The only deviation in my machine after servicing is the change of the 6800uF 16V capacitor to a 10000uF one for the circuit supplying power to the laser unit. Maybe the old laser need a bigger push to function correctly, and probably if push too much would just die.

tycham,

since you from singapore, any comments on TS LIM modded cd63 ?

[ryder]

Hi Auronthas,

Your room looks a lot better and classier with the canvas oil painting, not to mention the system now sounds better with the additional treatments. Good that you are able to fabricate bass traps yourself. I noticed you've got diffusors on both sides of your speakers and further down along the walls you've got bookracks. Did you try any absorption in place of the bookshelves, and if you have, how does it compare to all diffusion along side walls that you have right now?

Cheers.

[kkthen]

Update from first thread after minor room acoustic, i.e. adding in diffusors, bass trap/absorption panels, oil painting. I can feel a much better, lively, musical soundstage. Just to share.

Cheers,

Auronthas

Wah, very nice &　ｂｅａｕｔｉｆｕｌ　audio room. Ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　ｆｅｅｌ　ｃｏｍｆｏｒｔａｂｌｅ　ｗｈｅｎ　ｅｎｊｏｙ　ｍｕｓｉｃ　ｉｎ　ｙｏｕｒ　ｒｏｏｍ．


　

[auronthas]

Hi Auronthas,

Did you try any absorption in place of the bookshelves, and if you have, how does it compare to all diffusion along side walls that you have right now?

Hi Ryder,

I did not try absorption panels as it's too heavy to move the bookshelves (lazy... lol). I am very satisfy with the soundstage now. Now my next target is to get a external DAC, i.e. Cambridge Audio DacMagic - FYI, there is a follow-up review ('Affordable Digital Excellence') by John Atkinson in the June 2009 Stereophile magazine which i received two days ago.

OT, I enjoy reading your posts on Harbeth SHL-5 speaker matching with right amplifier, i hope you will get the matching amplifier. Btw, have you heard about Magico Mini (bookshelf speaker)? It's expensive and highly promoted by TAS in their review few years back.

Enjoy the music and have a nice weekend ahead.

Cheers,

Auronthas

[auronthas]

Wah, very nice &　ｂｅａｕｔｉｆｕｌ　audio room. Ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　ｆｅｅｌ　ｃｏｍｆｏｒｔａｂｌｅ　ｗｈｅｎ　ｅｎｊｏｙ　ｍｕｓｉｃ　ｉｎ　ｙｏｕｒ　ｒｏｏｍ．

　

Hi kkthen,

Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately, only myself listening to music. LOL

Cheers,

Auronthas

[car o scope]

Bro Auronthas,

If I remember correctly, you have been sourcing for the DAC for quite a while already.. Hope you can get one soon..

Oh ya.. did you put anything on the wall behind your listening position?

[auronthas]

Hi car o scope,

Yes, i am anxiously looking at Cambridge Audio DacMagic, hope to get it from UK from a friend of mine by early next year, but currently pound sterling is going up *sigh*.

Behind my listening chair is a row of CD cabinets around 4' height, i think i have posted photos on the first page of this thread.

Cheers,

Auronthas

[tycham]

Hi Opera

Sorry never have the opportunity to listen to a TS Lim modded Marantz. If I have the opportunity would let you know how it sound.

Warmest Regards

[tycham]

Update from first thread after minor room acoustic, i.e. adding in diffusors, bass trap/absorption panels, oil painting. I can feel a much better, lively, musical soundstage. Just to share.

Cheers,

Auronthas

Nicely done. Is there any treatment on the top corners of the back wall?

[auronthas]

Hi tycham,

No treatment at top corners as high ceiling ~ 4 m.

Auronthas

[ryder]

Hi Auronthas,

Do you know the type of material that is used to construct the 2 pieces of diffusors on your side walls? Thanks.

[auronthas]

Hi Ryder,

It's RPG room diffusor made by Texchem, material is some sort of polystyrene.

The link is as below:

https://www.hifi4sale.net/audio-video-equipment-for-sale-f1/rpg-room-diffuser-panels-new-t551.htm

Auronthas

[ryder]

Hi Auronthas,
Thanks for the link. I guess the clone Skylines made a noticeable if not substantial difference? A renowned member in Audiogon uses the Skylines on his front wall, 3 pieces stacked in vertical. I reckon this thing must be good stuff.

[auronthas]

Hi Ryder,

I have previously fixed egg/fruit crates ( 6 pieces (2 x 3)) with blue taks on front wall, but no substantial sound difference was observed. Not sure if RPG diffusor will make the difference, anyway, i have had oil painting fixed on the front wall.

To all, if you have experience fixing diffusor on front wall, please share with us.

Cheers,

Auronthas

[ryder]

Hi Auronthas,

The egg crates are too shallow in depth to make a significant difference. The minimum effective depth for diffusors is 4". I have tried placing the omnifussors on all front, side and rear walls, and at all these positions there is a perceptible difference. Since I only have limited numbers of these diffusors, I can only place them along one wall at a time. For my room the biggest difference was when they were placed on the rear wall. I do not doubt that they will bring a difference when placed on the front wall behind the speakers. If your Skyline diffusors are removable you can always try placing them on the front wall at your oil painting location vs. bare wall and find out for yourself.

I may be getting some of these Skylines for my ceiling in future since they are light in weight and easy to handle and most important, they won't send the whole ceiling crashing down.

[auronthas]

Hi Ryder,

Since the diffusors are permanently fixed to side walls, i would try to get diffusors to place them behind my listening chair, i.e. above CD cabinets. Just wonder if the light weight diffusors can be fixed well (using blue taks) above the cabinets.

[kkthen]

Yesterday my friend bring one pair old Sonus faber concertino ( double binding post) to poison me. after that I become sonus faber user. But this little monster is difficult be drive . I need to increse volume more than 10 o'clock to make it sing. But I need to find one pair good speaker stand for this small bookshelf speaker. If i don't want use original stand, any good price alternative stand can be found in malaysia market?

[car o scope]

I think there are good speaker stands available in AmCorp or you can also get a pair at KLIAV. Just my suggestion.
Maybe some SF members here can provide better info on exactly which type of stands to look for.
I saw on The Star that there are Marble Stands too..

[fizi]

Yesterday my friend bring one pair old Sonus faber concertino ( double binding post) to poison me. after that I become sonus faber user. But this little monster is difficult be drive . I need to increse volume more than 10 o'clock to make it sing. But I need to find one pair good speaker stand for this small bookshelf speaker. If i don't want use original stand, any good price alternative stand can be found in malaysia market?

Hi..If u dont mind sharing how much u bought the concertino ?

tq

[kkthen]

hello fizi

RM2300

[car o scope]

RM2300

You will never regret getting a pair of Sonus faber eh?
I am gathering 'bullets' now..

[PcWork]

RM 2.3K is seriously good price.
really really good price.

[car o scope]

RM 2.3K is seriously good price.
really really good price.

Yes. That's a good price.
At this price, I would say that it is better than grabbing those new generation of "Designed in UK, Made in China" speakers.

Now, he should have a nice budget for a good pair of stands.

[tycham]

RM 2.3K is seriously good price.
really really good price.

"Designed in UK, Made in China" speakers.

Ha ha ha....


Ha....h!

[hifikaki]

both r very good speaker but i'd go for SF for it resale. still remember 6 year ago i got a chance to buy SF Guarneri Homage for RM12k. These pair of speaker still selling for 12-18k now. no rugi may get profit after year of fun. The same goes for SF amatour mk1, my friend bought these 8 year ago for 6k, now it can sell for 8k...

[car o scope]

Yes.. Agree on the resale value of the older generations of SF.

To me, SF is breathtakingly good in terms of sound stage presentation and the midrange. They just suit my taste so well and I would not give a thought of the resale value if I were to buy a pair.

Why? Because when I like them so much, I would not even think of parting ways with them.

[sfcwlim]

Hi all,

I am looking for Concertino Domus and original speaker stand, should i buy both of them in one go? Is the original speaker stand make sound improvement compared to generic speaker stand?

[kkthen]

hello sfcwlim

you should take both to get best performance. The Concertino Domus and original speaker stand is discontinue now. I heard the distributor in malaysia is out of stock. SO grab it as soon as possible. IF you see someone let them go.

[sfcwlim]

hello kkthen,

Thank you for the information and advice.

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