Leben CS300 + ProAc D1 = OMG

[joeling]

Just fired up the above combo a few days ago. Oh dear, I'm in sugar heaven.

Unfortunately, the Leben has developed a couple of problems. Maybe have to send back to Lion Country for repairs

This is a nice match.

[tycham]

Unfortunately, the Leben has developed a couple of problems. Maybe have to send back to Lion Country for repairs

Quick! Send it over.......to my house first!

I am contemplating this amp!

[adrian4454]

Hi Joeling,
Finally you have taken the plunge. Congras. Anyway, didnt you mentioned before you wanted the CS300X?

Hmm. New stuff shouldnt be having any problem... Could it be the tube socket running loose after the long journey from Lion city to your house?
Care to share apa problem tu?

[joeling]

Well, the amp has 2 problems.

1) intermittent loss of SPL on right channel. I suspect a loose connection or somewhere something touching but upon closer inspection of the innards, I still cannot figure out.

2) static, scratching sound on left channel

Aside from that, it really matches the D1 nicely. Can play quite loud.

I am using it in my craftroom as computer speakers. PC running foobar with RME sound card ASIO out to amp then speakers. I'm mightily impressed. Can fight the main system also ProAc based which is breaking in at the moment.

I also tried it with Rogers LS3/5A 15ohm but this one not a match. Very shrill sound in the big listening room.

Regards,
Joe Ling

PS : Took it out of the chain replaced by AR LS17 + Bel Canto ICE 1000W monos. Leben better.

[adrian4454]

Haha, would have guess that you did open it up to have a look. Such a quality product... cant resist to open it up and harass it.

Anyway, sorry to hear about all these problems. Shouldnt be happening to a handcrafted equipment like this. But it is an Oxymoron; handcraft also mean inconsistency~~

There is so much manual soldering inside... wonder, has it got to do with some broken solder joints.

[joeling]

I was moving & left the amp to its devices for a couple of months before I got to it. D1 arrived just recently. I got the CS300Xs (sovtek tubes) but had the sovteks replaced with reissue Genalex Gold Lions.

Regards,
Joe Ling

[tweakman]

Hi joeling, did you find out what was wrong with your leben?

[joeling]

Nope, Sent it back to the dealer in Singapore to have him sort it out for me. Haven't heard from him. So, replaced with a Wyred4sound 1KW integrated but magic not there. I want my Leben back

Hi joeling, did you find out what was wrong with your leben?

[ryder]

There is a certain synergy between the Leben and Proac. The Proacs favour tubes, and the D1's being a good speaker have certainly benefited with the quality of the Leben. There are quite a few Proac owners(bookshelves) who use Leben amps on them.

As good as the W4S amps are, they are not tubes. The tube magic of the CS300 is beguiling isn't it?

Enjoy~

[joeling]

Yes u are totally right. I have not actually heard the combo prior to commiting to them but it was impressed the hell out of me at first listen.

The parts complement of the Leben are not that high end either. Volume pot is only an Alps blue velvet & rectifier are of ss variety (not even sure if they are soft recovery type). I think the magic is in the design. Incidentally, also tried it with a pair of Rogers LS3/5A but sounded very shrill & harsh - unlistenable. Cannot understand.

Last weekend, also spent a few hours at a friend's house. ProAc D38 + Cary 805 50W SET. Gobs of low end & airy highs & everything else in between. Truly magic.

The D80R + AR 210 also breaking in nicely. Bass is starting to make its presence felt. Gonna be a Happy listening to stereo CNY.

Regards,
Joe Ling

There is a certain synergy between the Leben and Proac. The Proacs favour tubes, and the D1's being a good speaker have certainly benefited with the quality of the Leben. There are quite a few Proac owners(bookshelves) who use Leben amps on them.

As good as the W4S amps are, they are not tubes. The tube magic of the CS300 is beguiling isn't it?

Enjoy~

[ryder]

It's not only you who use the CS300 on Proac speakers. There are several, and here is one owner who used CS600 to drive a pair of D Two's.





The owner seems to be over the moon with the performance of his system. I have listened to the CS600 driving some Harbeth speakers and the sound is equally superb. The Leben amps are more suited to smaller bookshelves though and can be a gem in the right systems.

ps. why uploaded pictures are always cropped at the ends? Any future intentions to rectify this?

[joeling]

I read somewhere that apparently, D2 + CS600 was recognised as best sound of show in one of the big American hifi exhibitions just a couple of years back. Cannot remember the specifics though. CS600 has more power & uses a tube rectifier.

BTW, this site has some limitation to size of images. I think anything less than 500 pixels across is ok. Anything beyond that gets cropped. Reduce the burden of data storage I suppose. So, the trick is to resize before posting.

Regards,
Joe Ling

It's not only you who use the CS300 on Proac speakers. There are several, and here is one owner who used CS600 to drive a pair of D Two's.





The owner seems to be over the moon with the performance of his system. I have listened to the CS600 driving some Harbeth speakers and the sound is equally superb. The Leben amps are more suited to smaller bookshelves though and can be a gem in the right systems.

ps. why uploaded pictures are always cropped at the ends? Any future intentions to rectify this?

[wabun]

if u familiar with 6BQ5 sound, any good vintage (properly restored)6BQ5 amp will make u utter "OMG" if matched properly with the speaker..

[joeling]

My current system consists of a pair of ProAc D80R driven by an Audio Research ref210 monoblocks & Ref 5 linestage. DAC is an AR DAC 8. The ref 210s have about 300hrs on them. They are now plugged direct to the wall. Sounded too shrill for my liking. My Bel Canto ref1000 sounds much better.

I am looking for something that is a better match for the ProAcs. Any suggestions ?

Regards,
Joe Ling

[hifikrazy]

Considering how much moolahs you would lose disposing of expensive amps like those, I would suggest that replacing them is premature until your boatload of Realtraps have been installed.

[elhefe]

Joe Ling,

My D18s are nothing compared to your D80Rs but I do humbly would recommend you try Musical Fidelity M6i as well. I am just about to close the deal on that and trying to get the M6 PRX power amp as well.

[ryder]

The D80Rs are quite top in the range. The ARC/Proac combination may prove to be too much of a good thing as both are ruthlessly revealing. Assuming your room is sorted and room acoustics taken out of the context, as good as the ARC amps are I feel they are a little clinical. What did CMY or your local dealer got to say about your system? I presume you've bought the D80Rs from the dealer. Have you listened to them on some top-flight Naim amps?

[Wikin]

My current system consists of a pair of ProAc D80R driven by an Audio Research ref210 monoblocks & Ref 5 linestage. DAC is an AR DAC 8. The ref 210s have about 300hrs on them. They are now plugged direct to the wall. Sounded too shrill for my liking. My Bel Canto ref1000 sounds much better.

I am looking for something that is a better match for the ProAcs. Any suggestions ?

Regards,
Joe Ling

I've played with 2 types of ribbon tweeter and believe me, nothing is better than having a dedicated low power single ended triode amp just to power it. The ribbons are too bloody revealing; sand amp or high powered tube push pull are just too coarse for it.

cheers.

[joeling]

Hmm, I had a chance to listen to my local sifu's setup consisting of a pair of D38 & Cary 805 SET. Sounds hair raising good.

My current system consists of a pair of ProAc D80R driven by an Audio Research ref210 monoblocks & Ref 5 linestage. DAC is an AR DAC 8. The ref 210s have about 300hrs on them. They are now plugged direct to the wall. Sounded too shrill for my liking. My Bel Canto ref1000 sounds much better.

I am looking for something that is a better match for the ProAcs. Any suggestions ?

Regards,
Joe Ling

I've played with 2 types of ribbon tweeter and believe me, nothing is better than having a dedicated low power single ended triode amp just to power it. The ribbons are too bloody revealing; sand amp or high powered tube push pull are just too coarse for it.

cheers.

[Wikin]

Yeah I've always been amused by the SET sound quality. OTOH they don't rock or slam well, so you'd have to pick your poison.

I would think you have several combination/options depending on your musical taste.

If appetite is a wide range of music from powerful classicals to vocals, bi/tri-amping with SS for the woofs, low powered SET (300B or KT88 SE etc) for mids and SET (300B or KT88 SE etc) for tweets would be logical. I'm doing just that but using active crossover so it's a slightly different setup.

If mostly vocals, then go for that Cary or similarly powerful SETS like 211/ 845 etc. Think 300B is totally out of the question for this.

cheers.

[WongKN]

Joeling,

Before you go the route of changing amps, have you considered other options like system fine-tuning (essentially tuning for your personal preference) and things like power supply treatment (purepower, power trans, and those sort of things). Also things like different type of equipment racks, etc. At the level of your system, I believe fine-tuning is critical.

[elhefe]

The D80Rs are quite top in the range. The ARC/Proac combination may prove to be too much of a good thing as both are ruthlessly revealing. Assuming your room is sorted and room acoustics taken out of the context, as good as the ARC amps are I feel they are a little clinical. What did CMY or your local dealer got to say about your system? I presume you've bought the D80Rs from the dealer. Have you listened to them on some top-flight Naim amps?

This would be a sensible try out as well. I fell in love with the ProAc while demoing with Naim amps. However, my ears fell doubly in love when using it MF amps.

[ryder]

Elhefe, yes, it is a matter of preference in matching the appropriate amp to the speakers since everybody hears things differently and has a certain preference to how his/her music should sound like. I am glad the Musical Fidelity amps fit your listening criterias. They may not only sound good but look good as well.

WongKN brought up a good point about fine-tuning. I haven't really gone into power supply treatment but my experience with proper equipment support is very positive. It is crucial to keep the equipment resonance-free for optimum sound reproduction, and different products will yield a different sound. At the level of joeling's gear I suppose his system needs all these fine-tuning to get the best out of the system. Certainly worth venturing into this area if not done yet.

SET amps certainly have their place and unbeatable in vocals and some other genres of music with their sweet and beguiling presentation. However, I am not too sure if they will play large scale music or rock at high SPLs convincingly due to the modest power capabilities of SET/tube amps. the D80Rs are big speakers capable of playing dynamically, and my impression is high-powered solid-state amps are more appropriate. Having said that if musical choice is more toward vocals then this shouldn't be an issue.

[kp93300]

My 2 sens,
At this level of equipment, I believe one is entitled to get some views from the designer of the amp and speaker about compatibility issue .
cheers

kp93300

[ryder]

My 2 sens,
At this level of equipment, I believe one is entitled to get some views from the designer of the amp and speaker about compatibility issue .
cheers

kp93300

It depends on which manufacturer, if one ever gets a solicited reply. Most manufacturers either amp or speakers do not participate in this sort of discussion ie. matching specific brands to theirs. Speaker designers such as Harbeth won't be of much help since he believes all amplifiers sound similar.

[hifikrazy]

Joe Ling,

My D18s are nothing compared to your D80Rs but I do humbly would recommend you try Musical Fidelity M6i as well. I am just about to close the deal on that and trying to get the M6 PRX power amp as well.

You can't be serious. Good as the M6i may be at that level, you are suggesting that he replace Audio Research reference series pre and power amps with an integrated amp that is near the bottom end of the Musical Fidelity range?

[elhefe]

Joe Ling,

My D18s are nothing compared to your D80Rs but I do humbly would recommend you try Musical Fidelity M6i as well. I am just about to close the deal on that and trying to get the M6 PRX power amp as well.

You can't be serious. Good as the M6i may be at that level, you are suggesting that he replace Audio Research reference series pre and power amps with an integrated amp that is near the bottom end of the Musical Fidelity range?

Bro,

Dont shoot me . Just extending what sounds good to my ear for ProAc speakers. Ahhhh you will be surprise what M6 Pre/M6i paired with the M6 PRX power amp can do. Joe Ling can also try the MF Titan and AMS range if we are talking better SQ= bigger $$$.

I do believe there is something mysterious behind matching the amplification with the speakers. Heck, even matching the sources are tricky as well. And with MF amps, there is something that just matches the ProAc. But I dont know what is that element. Well at least to my ears.

[soonthas]

[quote="joeling"]Hmm, I had a chance to listen to my local sifu's setup consisting of a pair of D38 & Cary 805 SET. Sounds hair raising good.

Hi Joeling,

I believe I listened to the same D38 + Cary mono+ Sonic frontier source setup you mentioned last year ,honestly, it is the best sound I've ever listened from ProAc speakers. The owner is a real hifi master too, his setup sound tells everything.

[joeling]

Guys,

Thanks for your thoughts. One lesson I have learnt from this exercise is that nothing is as one what would think it should be. I had a chance to listen to my dealer's system consisting of a ref110 stereo amp & it sounded nice with his ProAc carbon 6. In fact, before I took delivery of the D80R, also had them hooked up & I did not detect any HF glare. The ref210, being in the same series should be the same no ? Alas, very different. I will get my dealer to drop by to have a listen for himself before I make any move.

Prior to plugging to the wall, the amps were plugged into a Torus AVR highest amp model (not sure of model name).

The kicker is that my Bel Canto, at 1/3 the price, sounds 10X better. So, for the time being, I am using the Bel Canto but left thinking perhaps there is something better.

As for SET, you will be surprised. I am really impressed.

Regards,
Joe Ling

[joeling]

Yep, u got that right. Quite impressive.

[quote="soonthas"]

Hmm, I had a chance to listen to my local sifu's setup consisting of a pair of D38 & Cary 805 SET. Sounds hair raising good.

Hi Joeling,

I believe I listened to the same D38 + Cary mono+ Sonic frontier source setup you mentioned last year ,honestly, it is the best sound I've ever listened from ProAc speakers. The owner is a real hifi master too, his setup sound tells everything.

[ryder]

Can probably stick to the Bel Cantos and buy more music instead? Yes, more expensive does not necessarily mean better sound.

[elhefe]

Can probably stick to the Bel Cantos and buy more music instead? Yes, more expensive does not necessarily mean better sound.

Thats very true. In Joe Ling's case, it will be interesting to see what would be the outcome after the dealer comes and have a listen to his set up. Sometimes the matching does not go side by side with the pricing. My previous amp X-A1 was a much cheaper amp than the Naim set up in the show room, but somehow, I preferred the X-A1. Maybe my ears already have an MF stamp in them

Joe Ling,

Good luck in pin pointing the HF source issue. Maybe some tweaks from the dealer could save you some money from changing your amps.

[ryder]

Sometimes the matching does not go side by side with the pricing. My previous amp X-A1 was a much cheaper amp than the Naim set up in the show room, but somehow, I preferred the X-A1. Maybe my ears already have an MF stamp in them

Good to hear the MF amps are working in your system and sounded better than the Naims in the showroom. Without the pretense of defending the Naims, sometimes there are factors other than listening tastes that need to be taken into consideration. One of the key factors is in the setup of the system and the listening environment of the demo session. Some systems at dealers' showrooms do not paint an accurate picture of the component's capabilities due to poor setup. At one point I was at a CMY's branch with an intention to listen to a particular amp and compare it with the Naim separates. Somehow the music sounded very mediocre bordering disappointing with both the integrated amp and Naim separates. The sales person then revealed the speakers were new, less than 10 hours and not run-in yet. To add to the injury the amps were all fired up from cold. A failed demo.

Anyway I have no qualms the MF amps sounded better than the Naims in your system and to your ears. Enjoy~

[WongKN]

Joeling,

Just my opinions/comments. If it is high-frequency glare you are complaining about, then it is more likely due to some other fundamental problems rather than system matching. However, one thing that I am wondering is how difficult your ProAcs are to drive. You complained about HF Glare. What about the bass ? Is it missing, or is it slow and boomy ? Is the sound lifeless without dynamics ? I do not have that much exposure to the ARC Reference series so I am not sure if there might be some issues with amps driving the speakers properly (in which case, I suppose it can be called system matching). That you say the Bel Canto which is 1/3 the price is 10X better is another important thing to consider. I am not advocating that a more expensive equipment -must- sound better. But your amps are ARC Reference monoblocs and I for one, do not think ARC amps can be that bad.

[soonthas]

Guys,



Prior to plugging to the wall, the amps were plugged into a Torus AVR highest amp model (not sure of model name).



Regards,
Joe Ling

Hi Joe Ling,

I'm interested in getting the latest Torus with AVR feature but haven't have chance to audition it ( auditioned non-AVR Torus before, not impressed ), can you kindly describe its improvement on sound, thanks.
Any particular reason you decide to plug the amps directly to wall instead of plugging into the Torus?

Tan

[joeling]

I am not really good with hifi adjectives but as I said, comparing the Bel Canto & ref210, the ref just sounded bright & harsh. Bass is comparable.

I have 2 other ARC components in the chain which was brought over from the old system when I moved - ARC ref 5 pre & DAC8.

Had the amps plugged into a small Richard Grey earlier. Sounded really constipated. Bass sounded like not wanting to manifest itself. Removed the Richard Grey & there was improvement. Removed the Torus & there was a little bit more improvement. My dealer says 700hrs for break-in & I am at 300hrs. Not sure another 400hrs will make a huge difference though...

I was really hoping things will work out as the amps not cheap. At least the speakers aren't that bad.

I was worried about fundamental problems too but luckily the Bel Canto assured me that the system can sound wonderful. But I think for the price i paid for the ref210, I deserve something better.

The Cary 805 50W SET that I had the chance to listen to at the sifu's place sounded wonderful & not shy to go deep & strong too. I am tempted....But i worry how is the matching between the ARC ref 5 & the amp.

Not entirely happy but at least the system is listenable. So, now just listen & work on relaxing after a hard day's work while trawling the forum on how to improve.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Joeling,

Just my opinions/comments. If it is high-frequency glare you are complaining about, then it is more likely due to some other fundamental problems rather than system matching. However, one thing that I am wondering is how difficult your ProAcs are to drive. You complained about HF Glare. What about the bass ? Is it missing, or is it slow and boomy ? Is the sound lifeless without dynamics ? I do not have that much exposure to the ARC Reference series so I am not sure if there might be some issues with amps driving the speakers properly (in which case, I suppose it can be called system matching). That you say the Bel Canto which is 1/3 the price is 10X better is another important thing to consider. I am not advocating that a more expensive equipment -must- sound better. But your amps are ARC Reference monoblocs and I for one, do not think ARC amps can be that bad.

[adrian4454]

Hi Joe,
Sad to hear that your high end system isnt matching so well. I totally agree with WongKN that u you work on fine tuning and tweaking your equipment/system before u start chancing equipment.

Here is what I have in mind:
- unplug the power conditioner and direct connect equipment to wall/unfiltered.
- take away the front carpet like acoustic mat.
- The very "coupled" racking may have bought out too much airiness that bring attnetion to high frequency. Instead, try some damping.
- ARC reference equipment should have few tweakable adjustment within or outside the equipment.. should give it a try.
- I have a feeling, room treatment might have taken away much of the body of the music that lead to the shrill sound you describe. Reduce some of the acoustic trap and see what you get.

Reference equipment should work together well, when the impedance matching is correct and within standard. As high end often has lesser character of their own and more musically direct.

Again, this is just my opinion... you may end up having the system sounding worse after doing that, but no harm giving it a try. As the step is easily reversible.

[hifikrazy]

Joeling, are your Realtraps installed yet? You mentioned before that you had ordered many pieces, which is likely to significantly change the acoustics in your room. After installation, maybe the ARC will be 10 times better than the Bel Canto.

I also cannot believe that your ARC reference series amps can be that bad, and losing the synergy of the preamp and power amp by switching to some other brand power amps would be the last resort if I were in your shoes. And I also don't believe that those ARC amps can be so far skewed away from neutrality that they would cause such severe matching issues with your Proac. Something else must be the problem.

[WongKN]

Joeling,

I am afraid my lack of exposure to the ARC Ref series really leaves me without anything solid to recommend. But:

"But I think for the price i paid for the ref210, I deserve something better."

Your statement really struck the core of the issue. Yes, those are ARC Ref monoblocs. You surely deserve something better than to be this unsatisfied with your sound. A lot better.

One cavert is that now only I know your ARCs are brand new and supposedly still running in. Actually I am shocked at the need for 700hours run-in. Usually it is 100 hours or less. But to be sure, a lot of my friends tells me high end equipment can take a long time to run in. A few of them says they can still hear the equipment improve after more than 3 months of regular usage.

Grasping at straws, I can only think of one basic question to ask and then one comment.

Firstly, has the system always sounded like this ? With the shrill high-frequencies ? Were the sound better before this ?

Secondly, and related to the question above, I know of equipments which can sound good initially and then during run-in can really sound bad, no bass, very brash highs, and so forth. Then after a certain threshold of running in, pop ! they sound wonderful again. However the main concern is you already clocked 300 hours. Surely that is enough ? But if the 700hrs is really true, then 300hrs is less than HALF the time required for run-in. In such a situation, it can be that the ARC Refs are right at their worse possible condition/sound during run in.

At one time I remember people used to get specialized run-in CDs. I remember TAS and Stereophile had them. I am sure they, or alternatives are still available. Perhaps you might want to try putting one of them and play the system the whole day to try to expediate the run-in process ? However if you really do this, I would strongly advice for you to be at home, not necessarily in the listening room (the run in track sounds wierd and unlistenable anyway) but nearby. Just in case la.

[tweakman]

Those AR amps and Proac speakers are indeed extremely revealing components. What source and cables are you using? I heard a pair of D80 in an all AR system last year with Chord cables, it was very sharp sounding.

[soonthas]

Hi Joeling,

Normally insufficient run-in time for speakers cables, rca cables, ac cords, equipments and frequent plugging in and unplugging equipments contribute bright and harsh sound. I believe all of your equipments and cables are brand new, so get some time for proper break in, the ARC equipments normally take a minimum 1000hours run in time to shine.
Do check whether the ARC pre has gain selections, look for the most suitable gain setting for your sound preference.
If the sound still remains bright and harsh after run in, try tilting your speakers in such a way that the tweeters are "firing" above ears level. And you may try the Enacom speaker noise eliminator to smoothen and soften the highs.
After the problem solved, then put back the Richard Gray 400Pro and the Torus AVR, they will still improve the overall sound , I'm sure they are not the culprit of your current bright, harsh and constipated sound.

Hi Adrian4454,

From my experience, removing the front carpet and the acoustic traps in JoeLing room will make the sound even brighter and more harsh, causing the overall sound thin and dry. Putting more absorbing panels or carpet however will reduce the brightness.
The airiness will suffer if too many absorbing panels used, making the sound dead. Regards.

[adrian4454]

Hi Soonthas,
Good day, I do understand the front carpet purpose that possibly helps attenuate high frequency.. but it also undeniably rob the music of it body.. Maybe the high frequency is not meant to be attenuated, it meant to be there.. the system just need to inject a bit more warm/body to compliment it~~

[Bite]

Hi Joeling,

I had the ref210 and the ref110 in my system for a month and a bit. They are good amps. The sonic characteristics of the 210 and 110 are quite similar. I had them paired with several speakers and shrillness and constipated arent adjectives which comes to mind. What you describe doesnt sound quite right, coming from the 210.

They say AR reference equipment takes about 500 hours to break in but I didnt hear much change after 250 hours so I wouldnt expect a hugh change.

If the Ref3, is anything to go by, found it hard to match with other equipment (impedance matching) and produced a hum with some other equipment. A similar observation by a friend who bought them from me. You need to be careful if you intend to match the Ref 5 with other equipment.

Best advice I could give you is to give Audio Research a call and ask them. You have spent a fair amount on the amps and the cost of a call to them may be worth it.

You may like to post on Audiogon as well if youre trawling for an answer.

[ryder]

Second Bite's suggestion on seeking advice from forummers on Audiogon or the manufacturer themselves. There are a lot of folks in the United States who use ARC amps in their systems. You can do a random check using the search function if you wish to.

[kp93300]

Hi Joeling,
i am interested to know the outcome of the dealers visit ?
What was the problem with the amp ?
Have you considered grounding issues ?
regards
kp93300

[joeling]

Well, I am getting my dealer to bring his ref 110 X 2 for a bi amp test comparison troubleshooting this Saturday.

[joeling]

My friendly dealer came. He heard, apologised & took the 210s away for trouble shooting. In addition, he offered to leave behind both his personal ref 110s until the problem is sorted. I took 1 unit because I don't have enough pairs of long (5m) XLR cable to connect to the second amp.

During the test yesterday, the ref 110 sounded nothing like my ref 210. It sounded authorative & mellow & nice & everything is alright exactly the opposite of my ref 210s. Why did I not just one of these in the first place ? Above all, the ref 210s exhibited very bad sibilance. The girl in front of us was hissing all the time !

Anyway, it's back to listening to the stereo while my dealer sorts out the issue for me.

BTW, the traps have arrived. I did not install all of them. Only installed the rear diffusors & the first reflection point ones & the corner traps. I felt that these gave me a better imaging. I have not checked out the reverb time & response with the software yet.

The Bryston digital streamer is starting to sound quite nice too. Only major thing for me is that it does not read Chinese.

Regards,
Joe Ling

[WongKN]

Joeling,

So it seems our suspicion might be correct, that the Ref210 units you had could have some 'issues' with them. Hope your dealer get them resolved soon.

[elhefe]

Joeling,

I hope the dealer can troubleshoot the 210s. If the 110 sounds nice, I am sure 210s will make your set up sings much better once the 210s are fixed. Good luck.

[joeling]

Well, I won't return his ref 110 if mine is not fixed. In the meantime, just enjoy the music.

So, anyone have any experience with the strain gauge cartridge from sound smith ? Care to comment ? This seems to be quite interesting complete with blue LED.

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