Re: Krell - discussion thread

[azri]

i want to krell but it seems that krell doesnt want me oucchhh

[car o scope]

i want to krell but it seems that krell doesnt want me oucchhh

Huh? Ya ker?
You are very humble..

[carz]

Can someone tell me where is a good website that lists all the older KRELL amps and their specifications ? KAV-250A, KAV300IL and other models.

The current website site don't show info on non-current products.

Thanks

[mugenfoo]

i got the KAV-300iL manuals in PDF, but not for KAV-250A .....
if u want the 300iL files, drop me your email.

[car o scope]

Here is one link that I just discovered.
http://www.manualnguide.com/brand/krell/

I guess there isn't any website which has a complete archieve of all previous Krell models with the specs.

[carz]

Many thanks to you guys.
I am considering a Krell setup. May go for :-
1) Integrated KAV-300iL or KAV-400ix. OR
2) Preamp/Power Amp.. KAV-250A Power. What preamps do you suggest to go with this ?

Are there a lot of difference between Integrateds and Pre/Power setup in terms of sonic quality ? Is it worth the price difference ?

Do you guys have other suggestions ?

[carz]

Hi all the gurus out there, is it advisable to Use one of the 3 channels of Krell KAV-200a/3 to drive passive subwoofer ? The amp pumps out 250watt (8ohms), 500watts (4 ohms).

What kinds of crossovers are available to fine tune the crossover points.
What about phase control ?

Are there any reasons why this should not be done ? What would be the pros and cons ?

[happett]

I have found this to be a punchy amp to drive practically any speakers.

Any feedback from anyone who has used this amp before? Will be considering this to drive either ATC or Harbeth spks.

[mugenfoo]

If u can get to try the exposure 3010-S2, it could be even punchier.

Recently, some Krell Integrated owners were trying to compare the KAV-300i, KAV-400xi, and the S-300i side-by-side-by-side ...

Its 2/3's done. Still waiting for an owner of a S-300i to join the fun. Maybe you could be the one ?

[azri]

thats a hideous looking knob btw

[bassraptor]

I agree with Mugen ... listen to the Exposure also. The Krell does have more features, a cool menu/display and balanced input, though.

[carz]

I was told by someone in-the-know that the KAV-300iL and KAV-400Xi are practically the same inside. Has someone compared these two - do they sound the same ?

[mugenfoo]

I was told by someone in-the-know that the KAV-300iL and KAV-400Xi are practically the same inside. Has someone compared these two - do they sound the same ?

Quoting a reliable source around town, the 300iL does not sound the same as the 400xi. Among the Krell Integrateds (excluding the China-made s300i and the FBI monster), the 300iL has the best balance of punch ability and the polished refinements of the new-era silver smooth-edged Krells.

For best Grunt and brute force, its the KAV-300i

For best "new era refined", its the KAV-400xi.

300iL would sit in between.

Not sure about the s300i though, haven't had a chance to have a proper audition of it, more better yet, to run it side by side with the KAV-300i/iL/400xi.

But then again, quoting another reliable Krell insider guy (means some people who are part of the Krell distribution network), the 300iL and the 400xi is completely identical except for the volume controls (buttons vs. knob).

Which is which ? ... still a mystery. haven't quite had the chance to had a 300iL A/B with a 400xi so far. Any KAV-300iL owners out there ?

[bimmerman]

But, what happens when one combines the brute Godzilla factor of the KAV300i with a super refined source like Mark Levinson DAC for instance? The result is simply astounding as I have discovered.

[carz]

But then again, quoting another reliable Krell insider guy (means some people who are part of the Krell distribution network), the 300iL and the 400xi is completely identical except for the volume controls (buttons vs. knob).

Which is which ? ... still a mystery. haven't quite had the chance to had a 300iL A/B with a 400xi so far. Any KAV-300iL owners out there ?

I was told by the same source as you the same thing.....but if that is the case why would it sound different ? Maybe the person who reported the difference have used different speakers, cables, cdp...etc to compare??

If the extra volume control knob on the 400Xi is just an optical encorder, then it should not affect the sonic qualities, if the volume control electronics inside both the amps are the same right ?

Or maybe there are some "refinements" on the 400Xi in terms of some slight component tweaks like types of components used that are not immediately visible to the eye.

[happett]

Not much feedback on this amp, so far. So anyhow, I went ahead and got a Krell S-300i.

First 2 hours of running it: The amp is quite bright with quite a bit of details and sound stage, but not much bass though. Will let it break-in some more, perhaps run it a few hundred hours and we'll see how goes it.

Before this, I had tried my brother's 8 year old JVC 100-watt AVR and the bass was thumping compared to the Krell, but then the AVR will not give out as much details as the Krell. Could be the fault of my cables though as I heard the demo set being played with sufficient bass. And yes, I know, you can't compare a hifi stereo with an AVR. They are different animals.... one to accurately re-produce sound and the other to change sound to suit your taste...

[carz]

When you say "Bright", do you mean too bright or detailed ?
What speakers and CD players and cables are you using?

[happett]

Bright as in quite a lot of treble. But this is ok for me as I like it.

The mid-range sound is quite good though, clear and detailed, nice..

My setup:
Speakers: ATC SCM 11
Integrated Amp: Krell S-300i
CD player: Synthesis Magnus CDP
Interconnects: Audioquest G Snake
Speaker cable: Chord Carnival Silver Plus bi-wire

[azri]

it seems that ATc scm 11 has sealed cabinet, thats hard to drive mate

[car o scope]

Assume that you tried the AVR with your ATC.

I feel that changing cables with not give huge bass improvement.
They might be able to give max 10-15% improvement overall but not by huge margin.
Newer Krell integrateds are more on the refinement side as compared to brutal bass.

Just my dua sen.. enjoy your new amp.

[happett]

Yes, I had used the AVR with the ATC speakers.
And I think you are right about the cables too. Hiway laser touts the Krell as an audiophile grade amp: => http://www.hiwaylaser.com/krell

So refinement is the word with the amp being able to generate really good details for pin point sound staging... not for pounding bass...


And got more feedback: Manual recommends leaving the Krell amp in standby mode, which will reduce the amp switching on and off process. If you don't leave it in standby mode, you will have to switch it on/off which in effect will give the electronics a surge everytime you do that and will over time reduce the lifespan of the amp's internals.

So I left it in standby mode in the morning, but when I came back from work today, and touched the amp, it was WARM to the touch.. huh, how to keep the mother earth green when it continues to burn so much energy even in standby mode?

And I found the problem of not enough bass!
The amp was starved of power. What happened was, I have the Synthesis hybrid tube solid state CD player connected to a power voltage regulator and I thought that I could just plug the Krell power cable into another of the regulator's 3 power sockets.

In the office, was googling for a solution and found it here:
http://www.pliniusaudio.nzld.com/questions/index.asp



Now I have got a power extension and when I switch the Krell on, the lights in the house flickers a bit!

Talk about being power hungry, this Krell sucks power like crazy. With its power connected direct instead of going through a power regulator I can hear the bass a bit better, but still lacking from what I heard compared to the JVC AVR amp as that one has a button called BASS BOOST ! Ha ha. so can't really compare, isn't it.


I did use the JVC AVR directly connected to the wall socket during the test period with my ATC speakers so the next thing to do would be to test the JVC AVR connected to the power regulator and see if the bass can come out thumping again or not... we'll see.


Will get more feedback out as the amp continues to break in..... for the next hundred hours..

[mugenfoo]

happett, what speaker cables r u using now ?

And yes, plugging hifi equipment into computer-type voltage regulators tend to kill off all dynamics. This is true even for source equipments like DAC and CD players as well. If amplifier, the effect is even more detrimental.

[L C L Y]

Krell is a hospital amp. you can always see them in repair shop. compare with lower-end amp they are match better and last longer. why spend so much with this trouble amp. i not talking bad with this amp but is true. check around in klang valley see how many of them are in the hospital......

[bimmerman]

Can't paint them all with one brush dude. Mine has never been sick.

[mugenfoo]

Krell is a hospital amp. you can always see them in repair shop. compare with lower-end amp they are match better and last longer. why spend so much with this trouble amp. i not talking bad with this amp but is true. check around in klang valley see how many of them are in the hospital......

OK if u can show it, which shop or shops got the broken Krells?

And if they can't fix it .. i'll offer to buy them up at junk value...

[azri]

maybe he's referring to china made krell

[happett]

I took a few photos of the Krell and ATC. but don't really want to put them up here.

So I thought that I would put the photos in a blog which you can then all view. Take a look, ya?

==> http://happett.blogspot.com/2010/05/my-hi-fi-journey.html

[car o scope]

Are your ATCs on footers so that they are not directly contacting the cabinet?

[mugenfoo]

I took a few photos of the Krell and ATC. but don't really want to put them up here.

So I thought that I would put the photos in a blog which you can then all view. Take a look, ya?

==> http://happett.blogspot.com/2010/05/my-hi-fi-journey.html

Nice picts, but if you're really serious about getting the best sonic performance from your lovely investment, it is highly recommended that you explore speaker stands for those ATC speakers.

The importance of solid rigid stands cannot be over-emphasized for bookshelves. They need not cost an arm/leg, but the sonic improvements are nothing short of a revelation. Alot of us have started our hifi journeys with bookshelves and will tell you from experience that the worse possible thing u could do would be to place such speakers on flabby or ringing (ie glass) table tops.

Not to mention the speaker vibrations with would also affect the other electronic components such as the CD player & Amp if they're on the same cabinet or shelf.

What makes a good stand? Usually it would be the matched stands that came with the same manufacturer. Sonus Faber is one such example. In the absence of purpose built stands, u could also find very good generics from local shops. There's one at Amcorp mall that specialises in racks and stands.

Choose a pair thats beefy, solid and rigid, an the proper height for your listening position as well. The whole idea of a speaker stand is to properly hold the speaker cabinet from resonating, so the woofer drivers can do their job better.

After that than u can go on exploring other vibration control devices like footers and spikes for the CD player , Amp, etc. They all will change the sound, and you might be surprised on the differences u can hear.


If you're really go go to the "next level", you'll find that purpose built hifi racks & resonance vibration control accessories would eventually be another part of the whole hifi eco-system.

http://www.finite-elemente.de/etc_en/index_en

http://www.brightstaraudio.com/isonode.htm

http://www.vibrapod.com/

http://www.combak.net/

But be careful ... one can easily go overboard on these accessories and neglecting the bigger picture instead.
For example, some people get really funny ideas that a soup'ed up Satria GTI with whatever level of mods can take on a thoroughbreed BMW M6 or MB SL63 AMG.

[carz]

>>>>OK if u can show it, which shop or shops got the broken Krells?
And if they can't fix it .. i'll offer to buy them up at junk value...

Me too ...want junk Krells they cannot fix

[wsyam]

Krell is a hospital amp. you can always see them in repair shop. compare with lower-end amp they are match better and last longer. why spend so much with this trouble amp. i not talking bad with this amp but is true. check around in klang valley see how many of them are in the hospital......

r u sure about that?....better check again..maybe they were not krells that u saw...
the thing is..u'll only know one if u own one..n i have no problem with mine...

[WongKN]

A warning to all forumers, IF you put up posts suggesting certain brands of hifi equipment are unreliable, please have the facts and data to back-up your post and be prepared to support your post. This includes ALL brands, Krells, Harbeth, SET amps, Mark Levinsons, speakers, Rega TTs, anything that is implied to be unreliable, be prepared to have facts and data to support it.

We want to be a reputable and respected forum which dealers and manufacturers are eager to recognize and support. We -ARE- getting a lot of interest from many dealers and a few manufacturers that we are the premium hifi enthusiast forum and community here in Malaysia. Therefore any unsubstantiated accusations will only serve to destroy our reputation and respect from the hifi community (enthusiasts, forums, dealers and manufacturers all included).

This means all the hard work of all the honest forumers here will be destroyed by the action of any irresponsible individual. We are not targetting anyone in particular at this moment but this is a heads-up to everyone. You can help us police this forum and enforce it so that it becomes the highest quality and earn respect from everyone.

Thank you for your attention and we look forward to your cooperation on this matter.

[bassraptor]

I agree with Wong. Some of the motoring forums have the same issue.

So stick to the facts and back them up.

[Rector]

Krell is a hospital amp. you can always see them in repair shop. compare with lower-end amp they are match better and last longer. why spend so much with this trouble amp. i not talking bad with this amp but is true. check around in klang valley see how many of them are in the hospital......

Wow. So basically u registered to take a pot shot at a brand that I can guarantee you don't even own.

Tell you what, you point out to me where this shops are with all the "krells in hospital". If I don't find another brand with as many casualties in these said shops, I'll gladly pay you a bonus let's say RM200 for pointing to me where this things are. U can hit me up on PMs.

What say you? You were trying to bait for flames, I'm trying to bait for trolls.


PS: I don't own any KRELL either, but what is upsetting is the prejudice to the brand because of certain "users" of the brand. U know what i mean.

[wabun]

Hi, anyone have the schematics or bias instruction for
Krell KSA150 ?

[chua55]

they are available at the diyaudio. why not go for Krill

[wabun]

thanks....sending back to factory will cost a bomb. dissembled the monster oredi, good built. if unable figure out where the faulty parts
will plan to retire it.

[chchyong89]

how about send to MR. OH ?

[azri]

http://www.mudah.my/KRELL+KAV300i+integrated+amplifier-6682016.htm

a bit above average price but i guess the power cord balance the figure.

[wabun]

a bit above average price but i guess the power cord balance the figure.

I can sell you 4.3K ( without ori remote but with Marantz remote )
if you interested. It has the box, and overall tip top condition. PM me if interested..

[azri]

mr wabun, good luck with the sale!

[azri]

out of curiosity, does the kav-150a ever made its way to bolehland? it looks the same but off course minus the pre amp etc

[azri]

wow, out of all those hard cores, nobody knows the answer.. good on you!!

[mugenfoo]

Found these article gems of the Krell KAV-300i and KAV-400xi compliments of Stereophile:

http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/205krell/index4.html

http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/809/index5.html

Test results from the lab measurements section seem consistent with the observed sonic characteristics of both amps:

The KAV-300i is more a brutish and hardily designed industrial mini monster.
Lower output impedance of 0.3ohm, much higher input impedance of 210Kohm.
Smaller transformer but still capable of supplying 700+W into the circuitry albeit at poorer regulation when its output stages are pumping out 250Wpc into 4ohm loads.
Hence giving this model a more authoritative sound, with a slight hint of darker shade in overall presentation.


The KAV-400xi is more well mannered and refined, like a well toned athlete.
Slightly higher output impedance of 0.35ohm, means it wont thump any earth shattering bass but still ample to drive most real world speakers.
Typical 47Kohm input impedance, means more responsibility rests on the sources to deliver good sound.
Overall larger transformer and lower THD distortion figures throughout. It is also a more linear & wideband amp extending into the KHz regions.
A more refined and airy sonic presentation.

No wonder bimmerman is still loving his KAV-300i, and some other forummer who is even more fortunate to own BOTH these wonderful amps.

There many lesser pre/power combos that do not come close to these Krell Integrateds in terms of total package performance.

[bassraptor]

Yes, the KAV-300i, I loved .... the 400xi, not so much, but still awesome ... wonder how the S300i compares technically ...

you're right in your closing assessment ... i was allowed to use the KAV-300i for an extended period in the 90s ... couldn't quite afford it then ....

[htkaki]

I knew someone who owned both of these models. However, our Poison Master Wong is luring him with venomous Odyssey Kismet. LOL...

FPB-400 for me, anytime. Errr... on second thought, need light years to save enough and buy one (only IF there is a used unit for sale)

[bimmerman]

Yes Mugen, loving it totally. It's the best integrated ever. I mean best integrated I can 'ever' afford. I can't think of anything better for the same amount of money.

My Mark Levinson DAC is also another best ever component for me especially after being fed de-jittered digital from the Audio Alchemy DTI 2.0. From my limited experience I can't say the Krell amp and Levinson DAC has the best synergy ever but they surely make good good lovin! And the music they produce help me make sense of the stuff they write about in Hifi magazines. Never understood most of what Sujesh Pavitran and the crew wrote about until I owned this dynamic duo. Dan D'agostino and Mark Levinson should collaborate and come out with something mindblowing.

Hey, Dan is making this superduper expensive amp called "momentum" or something like that. Wonder what that as all about. Krell killa maybe???

[carz]

This means the the KAV300i only has a damping factor of 26 at 8 ohms, and the KAV400ix, 22.8. At 4 ohms it will be 13 and 11 respectively.

Pretty low damping factor don't you think ? Are bass control good for these amps ?

I see on krell website that the damping factor is higher for each successively more expensive amp and more powerful amp.

Does it mean that krell could actually make the lower power amps sound as good as the higher power ones if they lower the damping factor ? Maybe they won't do it as that would mean that they can't sell the larger amps.

Look at d'agostino's new Momentom amp.....only 300W and cost a bomb, and it is very slim, apparently due to copper heatsink technology. But whatever happened to big transformer/power supply requirement? At that price point it has got to beat krell's most power amps to compete and i think d'ogostino knows what he is doing.

[mugenfoo]

actually the real world damping factor would be even lower, once u factor in the resistance of the speaker cables. Thats why the shortest is always best for speaker leads.

20+ damping might seem low. But contrast it with typical entry level Jap amp or tube amps output of 0.5 or 1ohm outputs, then you'll know why some people get this "bass boom" problem or flabby and muddy diarrhea bass sound with totally no slam nor dynamics from such amps when partnered with low impedance-dipping speakers.

Krell (of the older generations) do have lower power amps which still have extremely low output impedances. The KSA-Series are such amps.
50, 100 Wpc for their entry level KSA series.

But this is oversimplifying the capabilities of amps based only on damping factor. An amp's capability is not solely on damping factor calculations only. It is just one of the few factors that gives a sneak preview of how an amp would perform in real world. There are a million other factors so lets not forget the rest also.

Another telltale sign of an amp's drive capability is to see if the power rating doubles up for each half-drop of the load impedance.
Eg. 100W into 8ohm, 170W into 4ohm.


The old Monstrous Krells of the '80s and early '90s have their power ratings doubling up down to 1ohm loads. At the expense some distortion figures of course. As speaker loads became more civilised over the years, Krell amps no longer reached the subterranean 1ohm load criteria, and hence focused into making their amps less brutish sounding, more "polite" or "refined" as one could say.

[bimmerman]

Sorry to be a little off topic here guys but since Dan D'agostino is a little busy with his new Momentum project, I was curious to know if Mark Levinson was working on the next big thing and guess what came up. Mark Levinson and his wife wrote a book on how to get your mojo going.

Yup, I kid you not, Mark Levinson and wife Kim Cattrall published a sex manual!!! It's called Satisfaction, the art of female orgasm. And from the picture on the cover, i'm pretty sure it's our Mark Levinson in question here.

Come on Mr. Levinson, leave it to the ancient Indians and their Karma Sutra already, you dirty old dog!

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