Solid State or Tube preamp?

by teleman51 Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:18 pm

To all the sifus & hifi bro ,

Just wanted to get a general opinion from all as to whether a s/state or tube preamp is better.
You see my problem is that I have a vintage leak stereo 20 power amp (in working condition.)and have been looking around for the matching preamp, but when I heard it , found it to be noisy.
I have been looking to pair it with a proper preamp for a while now.
Now I'm using all s/state gear but would love to get that Leak going though Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_cheers

Since I love vintage tube gear, obviously it would be natural to lean towards a tube preamp but have been told that a good s/state would serve better, not to mention cost much less to buy and maintain as well.

Any opinions on this. Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_eek

Cheers & Shalom
teleman51

by tlkoo Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:34 pm

i reckon it depends on what you expect your preamp to do
in my case, i just want my preamp to manage signal drive thus i have found a preamp which sounds neutral Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

any coloration i desire either takes place at source stage or power amplification stage... and so happened that my preamp is a solid state chip-based one Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

whilst i must say that some guys want their preamps to be like artists in coloring the sound etc etc... long stories...

so... teleman51, what you want your potential preamp to do?

regards

audiobro Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_redface

teleman51 wrote:To all the sifus & hifi bro ,

Just wanted to get a general opinion from all as to whether a s/state or tube preamp is better.
You see my problem is that I have a vintage leak stereo 20 power amp (in working condition.)and have been looking around for the matching preamp, but when I heard it , found it to be noisy.
I have been looking to pair it with a proper preamp for a while now.
Now I'm using all s/state gear but would love to get that Leak going though
Since I love vintage tube gear, obviously it would be natural to lean towards a tube preamp but have been told that a good s/state would serve better, not to mention cost much less to buy and maintain as well.

Any opinions on this.

Cheers & Shalom
teleman51

by teleman51 Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:59 pm

Thanks for the reply tlkoo,

I really would like the preamp to be able to come out with some clean & clear sound for a start.
Sadder still I'm still addicted to tone controls so you can call me old school.Others have tried to wean me off but to no avail Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_evil

Someone said that I could not live with the new types of amps with only 2 or 3 knobs.They were right though.
I got quite a fright when I bought my Pioneer A400 from a fellow forumer, and found to my horror only 3 knobs Solid State or Tube preamp? Affraid

I have lived my life happily with a Marantz receiver bought in 1977,used it till about 2005 and it was bliss until I sent it for servicing and the repairman closed shop & took off with my Marantz.Those were the days of the "colored" sound, I suppose.
Am I wishing for that kind of sound again.I think so.
Maybe our brother forumer hoyhoysum would be my kind of guy.

Cheers & shalom
teleman51

by cmboy Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:06 am

Leak ST20 have sufficient sensitivity to match a 100k impedance passive preamp and the sonics will depend purely on the merit of the Leak amp, no more color, distortion or extra dynamic juices added. A DIY with ALPS Blue 100k volume pot (of course you can choose other boutique brands) passive pre will do just fine and doesn't cost very much.

by **bassraptor** Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:33 am

Is it advisable to pair a solid-state preamp with a tube power amp?

by cmboy Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:49 am

bassraptor wrote:Is it advisable to pair a solid-state preamp with a tube power amp?

If you happen to have a vintage amp like Quad II, its highly suggested to match a pre-amp to it. Those Quad just don't have sufficient sensitivity by design. Its entirely a power amplifier by all intent. You'd be turning up the volume to 3 o'clock to get a listenable volume if its matched or fitted with a passive preamp.
OTH, a high quality, transparent, uncolored, lowest noise possible SS preamp can do justice to a tube amp. However its up to the owner's satisfaction on choice and the end result.

by teleman51 Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:52 am

Thanks cmboy & bassraptor,
I'm seriously taking all views into consideration but must admit here that most importantly the preamp must have good number of tone controls, loudness switch and all thats' unfashionable now.

Maybe I come across sounding anti establishment, but what the heck, it's all about the music anyway.
Now I'm off to play some CCR & gold old 70's music Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

cheers & shalom
teleman51

by cmboy Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:58 am

Perhaps you'd consider this option. Passive pre + graphic equalizer.
Reminds me I still have my 20 year old Technics 12 band graphic equalizer. Time for me to do something with it. Yes, I do like tone controls too.
Audiolab 8000C would be a decent and affordable match, lots of input, outputs, tape outs, can connect to subwoofer, slim and not very bulky like ARC, lots of knobs, think got bass treble knobs, quite neutral sound.. how leh?

by **bassraptor** Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:11 am

or maybe just get a promitheus TVC and sensitive speakers ... Smile

by 123_rocketman Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:08 am

You can try Eico HF 85 pre. It has knobs to control volume, bass and treble. The icing on the cake is you can control them separately, which means you can have one side sound louder with higher treble and the other with lower bass or whichever combinations you desire!! This will definitely satisfy your "lust" to the max. Smile

by 123_rocketman Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:09 am

Oh, by the way, it is a tube pre. Smile

by azri Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:47 am

one thing about valve is, it looks hideous but it sounded as sweet as can be..

by azri Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:51 am

you will hate yourself coz you can no longer play around with tone controls, at the same time you keep smiling as you cant believe the sound valve produces throughout your listening session everytime you turn on your music!!

by azri Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:56 am

go for valve pre + ss power amp, but bare in mind you may need a high output power amp, at least 100w/ch or you can experience lack of dynamics. im running on 180w/ch, next step expected to be 220w/ch rotel or settle down with krell big bad ass later on Wink

by rsbn589 Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:19 am

teleman51,

May I know what speakers you are using? Leak tube amps are with high input sensitity (~0.125mV) which is too high for active pre-amp. You may try passive pre but as you like to play with knobs, I would suggest vintage pre. EICO HF85 is good but you may explore others like Fisher, Scott, Mcintosh pres etc. And it is advisble to install shunt resistors in your Leak ST20 to match with active pres.

Regards.

by sswong3374 Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:43 am

bassraptor wrote:Is it advisable to pair a solid-state preamp with a tube power amp?

Some people prefer using ss pre + tube pwr than tube pre + ss power combination. As they said got better control and dynamic...

by noodle88 Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:30 pm

sswong3374 wrote:
bassraptor wrote:Is it advisable to pair a solid-state preamp with a tube power amp?

Some people prefer using ss pre + tube pwr than tube pre + ss power combination. As they said got better control and dynamic...

I would say full tube system sing better, from tube dac output to tube poweramp. Perferable with interstage tranfomer all the way n no cap in the signal path , is the best of the best....

Cheers,

by tlkoo Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:43 pm

sswong3374 wrote:
bassraptor wrote:Is it advisable to pair a solid-state preamp with a tube power amp?

Some people prefer using ss pre + tube pwr than tube pre + ss power combination. As they said got better control and dynamic...

it depends on the sonic characters of each equipment, though not much use to decide based on specifications, or commonly known sonic characters thereof et al as eventually the state-of-the-art measuring devices (our ears lah!) are to acknowledge delivery huh Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_razz

i don't trust that all must be tubes neither all must be solid state, nor hybrid... our ears to judge lah...

by dixchen Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:42 pm

sswong3374 wrote:
bassraptor wrote:Is it advisable to pair a solid-state preamp with a tube power amp?

Some people prefer using ss pre + tube pwr than tube pre + ss power combination. As they said got better control and dynamic...

That's an odd combination, any pre amp voices a great percentage of the sound of any system. SS over tube, defeats the purpose of a tube amp really then...thus why manufacturers come out with hybrid amps...all tube on the pre side of things..

Like noodle88 has mentioned, tube DAC output to tube pre to trans in between be it interstage trans or not, ( really nothing wrong with coupling caps too actually, the phase shifts with cc's are not audible half the time provided they are of an extremely high quality) then finally to a tube amp ( SET preferrably Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

Either all ss or tube pre to add a tube flavour to the SS equipment.

But these are my own views...not all will agree with this..

by teleman51 Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:11 pm

rsbn,
i'm using a pair of slightly modified Rogers LS4/2a.Decent enough speakers although a touch too laid back.They're British, so you can expect that of the Brits.
Fisher, Scott & Macintosh are hardly available here at decent prices, not to mention the EICO.
Zenn in S'pore has a Nelson Audio image 2000 up for sale S$550.What do you think?
To all brothers who've contributed to the thread, my heartfelt gratitude for your sharing of thoughts and knowledge.Your'e all a terrific bunch of guys.
noodle88, you're the man.
cmboy, will also check out the audiolab 8000c.

thanks all

regards & shalom
teleman51

by **bassraptor** Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 pm

have to agree with dixchen. i always was led to believe that you can pair a tube pre with a s/s power, but not advisable to use s/s pre with tube power .. in any case, it's not a combination i've tried, although i've used passive s/s pre with tube power amp with good results (but this is another territory). certainly not active s/s preamp with tube power.

in fact, i can't think of any hybrid integrated that uses s/s pre stage and tube power stage, it's the other way around ...

... feel free to correct me ...

by teleman51 Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:53 pm

bassraptor,
your post makes sense, and most all of the stuff out there bears you
out.
Errr, but I don't understand whether a passive can be considered s/state per se.
A passive as I understand it is neither here nor there.It's just well, uhhh
passive! Forgive me if I'm mistaken Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_redface

I'm just a new kid on the block.Or old timer who does'nt know better, to phrase it better.

Errrrr, know anyone whos' giving up an EICO HF85 for adoption.
Looking to give a loving home & willing to pay a decent price if I could find a good condition unit Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

.Highly recommended by Bro rsbn5869.

cheers & shalom
teleman51

by **bassraptor** Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:12 pm

ha ha ... you're right, teleman (you're a guitarist?) ... passive, i suppose, is neither ... since there's no glass, i referred to it as solid-state, but it's just transformers, i guess!

by tlkoo Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:12 pm

i am not claiming that it is good sounding though it is a commercial product i.e. amc 3030 integrated model Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_eek

is a hybrid of solid state preamp with tube power amp!

though they are not commercial products, my pre is solid state and power is tube! what is wrong? though i could not claim tube pre fairs better, my combo sounds good enough as it is (i mean in absolute sense without any comparison)

in any case, my philosophy in audio is simple i.e. comparisons never end, treasure the absolute!!! that said, my philosophy is not absolute either ha...

cheers

bassraptor wrote:have to agree with dixchen. i always was led to believe that you can pair a tube pre with a s/s power, but not advisable to use s/s pre with tube power .. in any case, it's not a combination i've tried, although i've used passive s/s pre with tube power amp with good results (but this is another territory). certainly not active s/s preamp with tube power.

in fact, i can't think of any hybrid integrated that uses s/s pre stage and tube power stage, it's the other way around ...

... feel free to correct me ...

by rsbn589 Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:27 pm

teleman51,

I have not auditioned Nelson Audio hence no comment. I have owned and listened to Rogers speakers so I guess I understand your meaning of laid back. IMO, EICO HF85 is the best buy vintage pre which offers good sound for both linestage and phonostage. Thick vocal and body, musical and one may find it too color and not as quieter background as other pres like the Fisher, Marantz etc. Nonetheless, to partner with vintage tube amps for example Leak ST20, I would prefer pres like Fisher 50C, 400CX, 400CX2 or Scott 122. They are not common in this region but quite popular for vintage fans, me included!

Regards.

by teleman51 Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:21 am

Yes bassraptor,
I'm a little bit of an aspiring guitar (own 5) player as my avatar suggests and what I know of tube amps happen to be tube guitar amps mostly.All mono, no stereo haha!
Topology wise, I suppose they are all aboutl the same,except that for hifi it's basically x2.
I'm a die hard tube fan I guess, but I've got nothing against s/state gear although I would'nt buy a solid state guitar amp in a million years.

rsbn589,
thanks for the tips, but now see what you've gone and done.
I'm already thinking of where I'm going to find one of those you mentioned.Heard the Leak Point One Stereo at a friends place a few weeks back and found it wonderfully colored with tone knobs to play with, but alas it was awfully noisy as well.
Time to pray to the good Lord to make my dream come true.

cheers & shalom to all
teleman51

by **bassraptor** Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:01 am

tlkoo, ah yes, the AMC 3030, a pretty decent little amp, i remember it now ... a bit ahead of its time, pity the company didn't last to see the tube revival! I had one for a while. A rare one indeed.

Teleman: I'm with you on the guitar gear! My last and best guitar amp was a refurbished Twin Reverb! My bass amp is an all-tube Ampeg. I keep a Mesa Baron hi-fi power amp on standby for the times I'm bored ... Smile

by teleman51 Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:41 am

bassraptor,
glad to hear that you're a tube guitar amp fan too.
However, I don't understand what you mean by last and best.You mean you don't have one anymore.
Have several of these amps, so please pm me .You can drop by to play with my toys like a blackface Showman,Bandmaster and even a '75 Twin Reverb, refurbished to blackface.Would love to meet up with a fellow musician
Can't really say that the twin is the best but to each his own.
Me, I really love the tones of the lower powered amps and am having a customised 18 watt baby Marshall being made for me.
For bass players, I'll agree that the Ampeg is the way to go though.

cheers & shalom Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

teleman51

by **bassraptor** Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:26 am

actually, i'm not much of an electric guitar player, the twin was an indulgence. i've gone thru a few amps over the past 20 years, but as far as clean tone from a tube amp is concerned, those old twin reverbs are the thing. yes, i agree, other tube amps do other things better, and i especially like the overdrive on such amps. my twin was a late-60s refurbished to blackface specs. anyway, sold it already.

you been in touch with ceriatone?

as for ampegs, mine's the last of the US made ones. for pure and dirty and loud rock tone, though, the all-tube marshall stack stokes my fire ... Smile

sorry to digress, guys ....

by sswong3374 Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:13 pm

dixchen,

I also agree that ss pre + tube power is odd/non conventional combination. Anyway never try never know. So far my friend from HK is happy with such combination (colne passlab pre + 300B), my other friend try to use audiolab to drive the 300B but he don't like the sound.

so it's really depend on individual's need and taste.

Basically those who use tube pre or tube buffer + ss pwr are people who wish to have large power to drive the speaker (more choice on speaker) but can still have some tube feeling.

then those who really like the tube feel will prefer full tube combination with suitable speaker (less choice)

then come another group of people (mostly those use 300B) who initially using full tube system to high sensitivity speaker and found their amp is not dynamic enough, some may try to use interstage then small group may try other alternative like using ss pre.

I'm a tube lover but i had to admit that it is easier to get ss preamp with good dynamic with control than a tube preamp.

by cmboy Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:46 pm

sswong3374 wrote:I also agree that ss pre + tube power is odd/non conventional combination. Anyway never try never know. So far my friend from HK is happy with such combination (colne passlab pre + 300B), my other friend try to use audiolab to drive the 300B but he don't like the sound.
so it's really depend on individual's need and taste.

Basically those who use tube pre or tube buffer + ss pwr are people who wish to have large power to drive the speaker (more choice on speaker) but can still have some tube feeling.

Excellent point as to individual need and taste. Large power to drive speaker?.. well that can only be true or usable to a certain degree and depends on the volume range one will put up during listening. We're speaking about this Leak Stereo 20 which averages about 12Watt at full peak power. Whatever preamp you match will not increase the music power but may start coloring, produce unnatural tones and may even occur distortion at peak power demands or at some heavy low level passages. You're not going to get fuller and tighter bass lines with some preamp thats reputed to be powerful, dynamic and rich sounding (or whatever the claims and reputation it may have). Vintage Leak pre-amps happen to be noisy buggers, due to its design of the day.

by noodle88 Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:50 pm

sswong3374 wrote:dixchen,

then come another group of people (mostly those use 300B) who initially using full tube system to high sensitivity speaker and found their amp is not dynamic enough, some may try to use interstage then small group may try other alternative like using ss pre.

I'm a tube lover but i had to admit that it is easier to get ss preamp with good dynamic with control than a tube preamp.

Sswong3374,

I don't agree what u mention about tube pre don't have enough dynamic. Tube pre can be hyper dynamic ie. The Vacumm State Eletronics fvp2 it's give u all that u want. Being a 300b amp not dynamic enough is nothing wrong with the preamp, is the amp's fault.

by arremie Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:55 pm

http://www.soundstage.com/noisy04.htm

by sswong3374 Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:46 pm

Noodles88,

i think u misunderstand what i mean "EASIER to get a ss preamp than tube pre amp with good dynamic" ..it doesn't mean tube pre can't be dynamic.
By the way what is the cost of a Vacumm State Eletronics fvp2?

by noodle88 Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:13 pm

I can assure u all, ones u click on a tube preamp u will not going back to Ss pre....

If I'm not wrong the vse svp2 is priced around rm 30k.

by teleman51 Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:52 pm

noodle88,
yeah, I feel like I'm leaning towards a tube pre amp anyway.
The old Leak Stereo has been lying around for a while now, and
I've only just worked up an itch to start getting her going.
Will now have to keep my ears & eyes wide open for a good condition
tube pre.
May just hop over down to Singapore to see if there's any good used unit over there.
Now that I've just turned 55, gotta be careful with my spending.
Then there's the wife acceptance factor to consider. Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_evil

Yes cmboy,
vintage Leak pre amps are really noisy buggers.Looks like I'll have to use the RCA commectors on the Stereo 20 chassis instead of the 8 pin umbilical cord which originally comes with the unit.Then have to modify to add on/off switch as the power unit does not have it's own but rather is switched on by the matching pre.

bassraptor, you've got a pm from me.

Thanks all.

cheers & shalom
teleman51

by cmboy Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:55 pm

I do have the Point One stereo preamp which I picked up from Down under years ago. Somewhat a bit less than ideal condition and now remains nothing more than a collectible. Last I listened to it, really needs a workover.

by rsbn589 Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:56 pm

cmboy, I remember that you said you have Leak 12.1 but put under bed. What happened then? Mind to tell?

by **bassraptor** Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:13 pm

wow, a Leak-ing bed ... Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_twisted

by teleman51 Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:17 pm

cmboy,
you picked it up from down under your bed or Ozzieland. Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

Is it still in a somewhat working condition or what.
After the workover, would it be less noisy or what?
Or is it it's inherent character.
Any possibility of ugrading it to modern specs.
May interest me if the unit's future prospects are good.

Please let me know.
Cheers & shalom
teleman51

by cmboy Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:47 am

Hey guys, lets not shift the focus on me or whats under my bed, closet, bathroom or the cellar.
Mr Teleman51 here needs some answers, not me.

by tlkoo Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:42 am

mr teleman51

maka kecek sokmo tak kan tahu
lagi baik coba sokmo ni tu Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_cool

wasalam
kooman

by Landy Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:51 am

Does an opinion from a girl matter???

Anyway, here goes. Yes, valves, nice but never enough driving power. A live musical performance has a kind of tension, a kind of rawness and edginess that valves just smoothens out too much. To get close to real musical reproduction you need power, speed and accuracy of tone. Valves are too coloured.

You can get closer to a live performance with SS than vith Valves with the same amount of money spent. Of course if you spend even more money on the valves then I don't deny valves can come close to the real thing.

But having said that, a good valve pre driving a SS power amp can be quite an interesting prospect.

by teleman51 Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:17 am

tlkoo,

you say what ah? Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_question

pohm mai kowchai, karp.

Landy, what you say is credible but valves do have a solid following.
At my age I've seen the slow fading away of valves and the rise of solid state starting in the 60's.
Come the 90's valves start becoming the rave again Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_lol

And s/state have taken the market, with excellent gear coming out.
Both have their strong & weak points.
Me, my ears want to hear the sounds of the 70's but have to face the reality of the new millenium with really modern gear, giving out the 'new' sound.
Even talking about cables can run into pages and pages.
There was a time I was running an 8 track cassette through a Marantz receiver with Wharfedale speakers and honestly believed I was in hifi heaven.
Time marches on sadly.sigh!

cheers & shalom.
teleman51

by wabun Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:24 am

Does an opinion from a girl matter???

Anyway, here goes. Yes, valves, nice but never enough driving power. A live musical performance has a kind of tension, a kind of rawness and edginess that valves just smoothens out too much. To get close to real musical reproduction you need power, speed and accuracy of tone. Valves are too coloured.

You can get closer to a live performance with SS than vith Valves with the same amount of money spent. Of course if you spend even more money on the valves then I don't deny valves can come close to the real thing.

But having said that, a good valve pre driving a SS power amp can be quite an interesting prospect.

Not really Landy. a good tube amp driving sensitive speaker can b dynamic. a pair of 12w pc Eico HF12 monoblock playing LP can bang the floor like crazy when driving an alnico magnet JBL 15 incher.

by wingman Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:29 pm

Anyone here have any experience with "Dared" Valve Amps ?

cheers Solid State or Tube preamp? Icon_biggrin

by arremie Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:42 pm

I would like to know also Smile

by dixchen Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:48 pm

wabun wrote:
Does an opinion from a girl matter???

Anyway, here goes. Yes, valves, nice but never enough driving power. A live musical performance has a kind of tension, a kind of rawness and edginess that valves just smoothens out too much. To get close to real musical reproduction you need power, speed and accuracy of tone. Valves are too coloured.

You can get closer to a live performance with SS than vith Valves with the same amount of money spent. Of course if you spend even more money on the valves then I don't deny valves can come close to the real thing.

But having said that, a good valve pre driving a SS power amp can be quite an interesting prospect.

I have to agree, even 4w with a over 100db/w speakers will do so much dynamics you will be startled when one hears it but unfortunately not many will get a chance to do so. Its not so common in our market here..

Not really Landy. a good tube amp driving sensitive speaker can b dynamic. a pair of 12w pc Eico HF12 monoblock playing LP can bang the floor like crazy when driving an alnico magnet JBL 15 incher.

by azri Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:03 pm

teleman.. LP idris muhammad you ade ke? fuhh.. soul jazz tu. i dgr kt 12au7 + rotel pwr amp kombo i munyik sbijik2.. slurrppp!!

by Landy Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:18 pm

wabun wrote:
Does an opinion from a girl matter???

Anyway, here goes. Yes, valves, nice but never enough driving power. A live musical performance has a kind of tension, a kind of rawness and edginess that valves just smoothens out too much. To get close to real musical reproduction you need power, speed and accuracy of tone. Valves are too coloured.

You can get closer to a live performance with SS than vith Valves with the same amount of money spent. Of course if you spend even more money on the valves then I don't deny valves can come close to the real thing.

But having said that, a good valve pre driving a SS power amp can be quite an interesting prospect.

Not really Landy. a good tube amp driving sensitive speaker can b dynamic. a pair of 12w pc Eico HF12 monoblock playing LP can bang the floor like crazy when driving an alnico magnet JBL 15 incher.

Well, there was one time I went to a friend's place for music practice and he had a pair of Tannoy Wesminsters tucked away in each corner of his livingroom. His Audionote Conquerers were out of commission because they blew a valve or something so in place of the Audionote was an inexpensive Dared VP16. 16watts maybe? I really don't know. But I must say I was impressed with the combination. Tonal accuracy aside, the combo was able to deliver realistic bass without bloom or boom and uncoloured midrange. Quite the opposite of my impression on valve gear and very modern sounding. Of course I wasn't truely satisfied with the performance but to rate it, i'd give it 4 out of 5 stars. So, coincidently this also answers the questions on Dared that some of you are asking.

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