Amp selection help required

Hi All Sifus,

I need your help to identify basic requirements and specs or type for an amp; in order to drive my 2 way DIY bookshelf (vented box) efficiently.
Below is the specs of my drivers:

Midbass:
Size: 5.5 inch,
Power handling: 50 watts (RMS),
Impedance: 4 ohms,
Sensivity: 87dB.
Manufacturer: Scanspeak.

Tweeter:
Size: 1 inch (voice coil),
Power handling: 50 watts (RMS),
Impedance: 4 ohms,
Sensivity: 89.2 dB.
Manufacturer: Scanspeak.

I like to listen to dynamic & loud music, but NOT disco or techno type la.

I need to know shall I go for intergrated amp? pre/power amp? what is the minimum watts/rms shall i look for? Class A amp? Match Brand? etc...

Sincerely, your inputs will be very much appreciated. THANKS.

Btw, feel free to PM me, if you have the suitable and matching amp for sale.

Dear Allen

Welcome to HIFI world. You have make good entry by DIY ur speaker.. Dont fall under the same journey of buying expansive amp. It is only circuit but the manufacturer make it expansive on its casework....get the good DIY amp and good CD transport...

Dear Allen,

Start reading stereophile, TAS, Hi FI plus and visit Hifi Shops and read their reviews. I suggested read the review on integrated amp that suited for you(i think).There are many...check this website http://www.vocativeaudio.com/eng_solidstateamp.html...

Allen

I auditioned Trends Audio TA-10.1 with Marten yesterday. for that much.it is a joy compared to even 1000USD amp...key word>>> use a good CD transport...

bmw23 wrote:Dear Allen

Welcome to HIFI world. You have make good entry by DIY ur speaker.. Dont fall under the same journey of buying expansive amp. It is only circuit but the manufacturer make it expansive on its casework....get the good DIY amp and good CD transport...

So what's a "good DIY Amp" you would recommend?

NOt use any but the want i auditioned: Trend Audio is good...price wise is cheap...good for starter...

Perhaps you have better experience building up DIY amp... problem is we are too comfortable with on shelf amp with trade mark that come with high price tag.....

Care to enlighten us......on diy amp...

Look for NAD amp as well. It can drive difficult load with ease..and dont cost you an arm or leg.

adrian4454 wrote:Look for NAD amp as well. It can drive difficult load with ease..and dont cost you an arm or leg.

hmm.. the NAD 3020i comes to mind...

bmw23 wrote:Perhaps you have better experience building up DIY amp... problem is we are too comfortable with on shelf amp with trade mark that come with high price tag.....

Care to enlighten us......on diy amp...

DIY amps can be a very good performance especially at the entry level price range.

But for really high performance grade, i have not come across any DIY amp that can really come close to the real "high price tag" amps because in reality, if you were to really try and build your own equvalent of the "high price tag" amp, you probably will end up spending even more $$$ because you don't have economic scale to buy high grade components in bulk, and u don't have access to custom high grade components to really match the performance of those "high price tag" amps.

Example, unless u are a big name manufacturer, you won't be able to go and talk to a device manufacturer like Motorola to build you a custom power transistor to your specs, unless u can commit quantities in the millions.

Even when local DIY king Frankie was doing his Pipit phono stages, he had to buy alot of components such as resistors,caps, transistors in large quantities, then painstakingly try and find matched-pairs to use in his designs.

For the amateur hobbyist.... good luck.


Here's an interesting article, the sneak-peak into the philosophy behind high-end brands:

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/1203dagostino/index.html

tyr this http://electronics-diy.com/electronic_schematic.php?id=690

Consider First Watt F5 DIY. I build mine on the cheap below RM 900 - and you can spend your time upgrading the diy to your taste - larger caps, dual mono power supply, exitoc resistors, etc. The part counts are low and would not cost a bundle.

The sound is good and should be able to drive difficult load speakers.

Allen......

Well you can travel the many paths thats available right infront of your goodself, there's the DIY path or Off the shelf products.

You can choose to go the Tube or Solid state path.

I would suggest that you read up , go around to audition some of the off the shelf products to get the feel of the various sound effects before you decide you direction. ( as some would have adviced you earlier )

Basically, what i am saying is to get the foundation right from day one and you work your way up from there... whether its a DIY product or an off the shelf product.

cheers

THANKS for so many sifus replies & suggestions,

But I think I am not ready yet to DIY an amplifier la.., if not too difficult & complicated, maybe I can try one day..

For time being, still prefer to get an amp on shelf or underneath someone's bed...

?1. Looking at the specs of my drivers, are they fussy & difficult to drive?
?2. How many minimum watts/rms integrated amp shall I look for? 50 watts rms/channel or 100 watts rms/channel into 8 ohms?

adrian4454, may I know which model of NAD is suitable for my speakers? 315 BEE? 326 BEE? 355 BEE?

mugenfoo, do you suggest I try or go for NAD 3020i?

In fact, I tested Pioneer A-400, but the sound re-produced was not as dynamic as I wish..., or is it limitation of my speakers?

More inputs please, sifus...

if u find the Pioneer A400 a bit underpowered, then would suggest that u can try an Audiolab 8000A, Cyrus (II, III or newer), or some Exposure Integrated amps.

No, the NAD 3020 would be even more underpowered than the Pioneer A400 already. But its just an example of a well built entry-level amp to start with. But since you're probably needing something better than an A400, then the above models might be of interest to you.

I can see you have a good common sense and a good sense of perspective. Worth my while to give you my opinions. Firstly, be aware that different people have different opinions. So treat all recommendations with a pinch of salt (including mine) as they are, in the end, just personal opinions.

Just by looking at the superficial specs (by superficial, I mean what you listed are the standard specifications for a speaker. There are more elaborate/detailed specifications : input impedance graph across the frequence spectrum for e.g.), your DIY speaker seems like a standard load and should be compatible with a very broad range of amplifiers.

You have also very smartly listed down your musical preference, an extremely important aspect when shopping for an amplifier, especially to match and existing speaker. It is not very detailed but is enough to say that you need some good level of power. This unfortunately is only available via more expensive specialist amps. It is important to look at things in the proper perspective. Often there is a reason for why some hifi equipment are expensive, especially if you have some level of training in electronics and understands the demands of finding tight tolerance components, etc, just like there is a reason why a Merc is so expensive relative to say, a Proton Perdana. Already you have found a very highly regarded 'value for money' amp (i.e. the Pioneer A400) not totally meeting your requirement.

My personal opinion is you need a well designed solid state amp. You did not list down your budget which is something very critical. But given that you have auditioned Pioneer A400, I think you will need to check out its alternatives like Audiolab 8000A and so forth. If none of them meets your need, then you will need to consider if you might want to 'downgrade' your requirement (with regards to dynamic range) or increase your budget.

KLAVS is coming very soon. Perhaps if you can wait, then visit KLAVS and listen to as many systems as you can, paying special attention to the higher more expensive equipment to see if you can hear the difference they make. I am not implying anything but the honest truth is that for everyone (including me), we are all at a certain level, let's say discerning ability (a rather 'famous' friend of mine likes to call it 'listening intelligence) which gives us the ability to hear the difference between different hifi equipment but up to a certain level. This is limited by our listening acquity but more by our exposure and listening experience. Beyond that, the truth is we can't hear any difference but they are there, just that we are not good enough to hear them. Later IF we are lucky, we are more experienced, then we will be able to hear the difference. In my experience, it is useful to visit a show like KLAVS to test the limit of our current listening ability which then allows us to derive the max of the budget of which we will have to consider, for any hifi upgrade.

Thanks mugenfoo for the amp listing.

And BIG THANKS to MOD-Mr.WongKN for your lenghty reply and advices.

So I guess my next target amp should be Audiolab 8000A, but I still worry it will not give me enough "kick" ler... ( some reviews said 8000A has less "punchy bass" than A-400, if i remembered correctly..??)

Hopefully there are some Kind Souls out there to let me try the Audiolab..

actually an 8000A will have better dynamics and "kick" than a A400.

Or u can go for a more modern 8000S or SE series but these are the modern "made in china" ones... These new units are available around town.

But suggest that if your speakers are not too big or cumbersome, it might we worthwhile for u to take it to the shops and try out with diff amps.

Who knows, you might just like the combo with a Cambridge Audio Azur series amp .... (for example lah).


but personal recommendations would be the Exposure 2010S2, about RM3K+ ... I am personally using an older model Exposure and its been a joy owning it.

WongKN has extensive experience with the 8000A as he also used one for many years....

You never did state how much your budget is. Maybe there are some nice used amps you can consider as well.

I would personally take the Exposure 2010S2 over the Audiolab. Would be an improvement to the Pioneer amp with more involvement factor.

Lots of THANKS to Sifu replies..

mugenfoo, may I know where & which hifi shop carry Audiolab, Exposure, Rotel? Is Cambridge Azur worth trying? Will NAD 315 or 326 BEE fit me? My speakers not too big, I can carry them around for testing in hifi shops, if they allowed me to do so la..

WongKN, I was thinking to put my budget in my first post, but I just like to get wider choices, by stating budget may narrow it down, but of course I can't afford those sky-high priced items la.., maybe not now..., but I can look for used unit, if any. In fact I prefer to buy good used amp, my budget is from RM500 ~ RM 2500.

ryder, do you know where I can try Exposure 2010S2?

regards.

Allen6226,
Audio Image carries Exposure. The recently reviewed integrated which is a higher model is as below.

http://sites.thestar.com.my/audio/story.asp?file=/2010/3/1/afreviews/5724918&sec=afreviews

It would be better if you can find a used unit as it would be more vfm compared to buying new. The Exposure 2010S2 should be well below your budget in the used market.

Other cheaper alternatives include NAD 325BEE. One of my friends uses it to drive his B&W floorstanders. Around RM1k-1.5k used.

I have owned a Classe CAP-100 integrated. Different kind of sound, more lush and liquid compared to the Exposure. I sold it off at RM2.2k about 5 years ago. A great little integrated as well.

You can probably pop into Asia Sound and have a listen to the Rega Brio3 integrated and see whether you like it. Below RM2k brand new. Personally I don't like the Rega sound but some may like it.

Naim Nait 5i used around RM2k.

I forgot to add in that you can listen to most of the amps that are in your budget at the KLAV show all under one roof instead of going round to respective dealers to have a listen to the shortlisted amps. Although the amps may be hooked up to different speakers and electronics(you will not get similar results if hooked up to your speakers at home), at least you would have a rough idea on how the amps would sound like.

allen6266 wrote:Lots of THANKS to Sifu replies..

mugenfoo, may I know where & which hifi shop carry Audiolab, Exposure, Rotel? Is Cambridge Azur worth trying? Will NAD 315 or 326 BEE fit me? My speakers not too big, I can carry them around for testing in hifi shops, if they allowed me to do so la..

WongKN, I was thinking to put my budget in my first post, but I just like to get wider choices, by stating budget may narrow it down, but of course I can't afford those sky-high priced items la.., maybe not now..., but I can look for used unit, if any. In fact I prefer to buy good used amp, my budget is from RM500 ~ RM 2500.

ryder, do you know where I can try Exposure 2010S2?

regards.

U can try Exposure 2010S2 at Audio Image, PJ.
Doubt if you can find any s/hand ones so far because it was only released a few months ago.


Audiolab is quite common, I've seen it on display at Music-by-Design at Jaya-ONE.

Cambridge Audio, most CMY branches have it.

Rotel , not sure who's carrying it these days.

NAD, one of the Amcorp Mall shop has it (could be A&L, not sure).

As before, good to call up the shop to arrange for an audition session with your speakers. (you bring your speakers to the shop).
That way, they know you're a serious buyer as well. So its well worth your time and effort to make appointments with these shops.

adrian4454 wrote:Hi Allen,
Personally, I would not want to go for those old faithful classic amp.. Like Pioneer A400, Audiolab 8000A, NAD 3020i; reason is, whatever life left on it, doesnt serve the 2nd hand price being offer currently. You have to understand; performance of sound degrade slowly through the years. Although it is properly maintained.
I use to be 1 of those that think all the old quality stuffs are better than nowadays products. Well, mostly true in the built quality; sonically; like I said, components degrade over time.. dont be surprise when you are in need for a fun loud play for a moment with this stuff, it ended with you unable to power up your amp the next time around.

Do look for latest Technology in amp, like class D, which maybe the ticket to bring quality sound without breaking budget.

I would recommend you to look around for new amp, Cambridge, NAD, Creek, Pioneer, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz... I cant really say which one suite you best; or best match ur speaker; you need to bring them along for audition, could be hard, but if you want to be sure of the right one. Dont under-estimate the Japanese amp... most of them are bang for buck stuffs.

Whats the big deal about Class-D amps (or any other particular type of Class-_ ) ? Its best not to get drowned and confused with all these classification of amps. People used to say Class-X amps always sound better than class-Y or class-Z. But those people who generalise only do so on a superficial level.

In fact, s/hand value is perhaps the best indicator of how well a piece of equipment really is. If the equipment is well built, and performs throughouti its useful lifetime, that's when people are willing to pay the market value for it.

Perhaps one of the reasons why most budget Jap amps don't hold their value well... They make too many of them with mediocre performance, and they change models too quickly without any real fundamental improvements over its model changes. The term rapid-consumerism comes to mind for these amps. Of course, there are a exceptions, and one of those few gems would be the Pioneer A-400.


Case in point, if u got RM3~4K to spare, you could be better off buying a s/hand Krell Integrated Amp as compared to a brand new Audio Analogue Stettanta amp. Not to say that the AA Stettanta is not good, but for the same amount of money, you're buying a piece of gear thats in a whole different league altogether. But of course if you're feeling the urge to splurge, go ahead and buy one brand new Krell Integrated at RM11K+ .

mugenfoo wrote:U can try Exposure 2010S2 at Audio Image, PJ.
Doubt if you can find any s/hand ones so far because it was only released a few months ago.

Difficult to predict. I bought my Rega Elicit when it was newly launched and sold it off 8 months later. I noticed quite a few folks, 2 to be exact who sold their Naim Nait XS after less than 1 year of use.

Exposure 2010s2 price 3.8 to 4.2k... maybe too steep for your budget.
Maybe NAD 355BEE and Marantz PM8003 could be within your budget..

Finally your budget and your desire preside....start enjoying your music.

Allen,

I recommend you take a few weekends of enjoyable and relaxing visits to as many hifi shops as you can. No need to drag along your speakers for the moment. Just 'window shop', a kind of recce, to see the choices and for superficial listen. Many a times you can make a choice (i.e. whether you would like or not like a certain amp) after a careful listen at the showroom. It's a bit like competition, first you do the heats. That eliminates many of the alternatives outright. Then its the finals and that's when you need to bring the speakers for auditioning. Also the window shopping and the treatment you get from the shop keeper or assistant during the window shopping will quickly tell you if it's worth your time to give your business to the shop or not. Sometimes SERVICE especially AFTER SALES SERVICE can be the top overriding factor in choosing the final amp that you want to spend your hard earned money on.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU All Sifus, namely in posts order: bmw23, mugenfoo, adrian4454, wabun, mthoi, wingman, WongKN, ryder.

All of you have helped to make my seacrh of amp journey clearer.., and I still need to read this thread few more times in order to digest them completely..

Really very much appreciated for your efforts in postings and advices/suggestions given. Good luck to me!

Please feel free to add more...hehe .

Allen....

Key point is to enjoy you escapades and be aware of shops who are not consumer oriented .

Shops that you can look see would be at Amcorp Mall :

1.Audio Synthesis - emerging market products and mostly tubes Amps
2. Acoustique Systems
3. Asia Sound - Rega, Xindax (Tube Amp ) and Rotel - ( Five Star for Customer Service )
4. Joe MAc's - mostly second Hand Hifi gear.
5. A&L Audio - NADHifi gear.
6. The weekend Flee Market - if you are scouting around for used gear.

Out of Amcorp Mall :

1. Desa Home Theatre - Kompleks Desa, Kepong.

Don't rule out the WEB as well. Some of the forummers have succesfully purchased Amp ( especially tube Amps ) ,various hifi accessories, CD's/LP's from the WEB at a lower cost then what's available in MY. There are detailed discussions on the "Non Equipment Discussion thread "

Also wait it out for the KLAV Audio Fest, it would give you a better idea as most distributors / resellers are under one roof and possibility of you getting some good gear for a bargain.

Happy Hunting.

cheers

THANKS wingman, great info for me there..

I was thinking to try Cambridge Audio Azur 640v2 or 650, what do you guys think of this amp? good built & good sound quality?

And what do you guys think of my 4 ohm midbass?
Shall I changed the midbass to 8 ohms version?
Which one is easier to drive?
Generally, amp to drive 4 ohms speakers is more expensive than 8 ohms? or no difference?

Again, this is just me; you can have different way of finding out the partner for your speaker.

I check the internet instead of visiting the dealer, folk like me that doesnt stay in KL has very little option. But then again, you do get a lot of intricate details of your product through the net better than the dealer.
I dont look so much in aftersale service, I look for best price. As I rely on website like this to get the best out of it, if anything goes wrong. Buy a reliable brand and keep your finger cross. It will be very hard for u to get a lemon on brand new product. But shit do happen sometimes

Feature you may want to look for in an amp:
- Power output. Suggest not to look for anything below 40watt. Some ppl will tell u it is sufficient power to drive 4 ohm load, well it does, if u intend to use ur system for casual background music play only.
- Tone control - (bass, treble) want or dont want?
- Headphone jack(sound stupid to some purists, but compromise do happen if u live with ur parents)
- Bi-wirable? (Wont be a problem even if there is single wire only, but at least u wont need to force 2 wires into 1 terminal when the need arise)
- IEC plug power source (Option for u to tweak with power cord later if u need to)
- Phono input (when the LP addict get the better of you)
- Pre amp-out (another feature for future tweak)

Again, I do agree on Mugenfoo view on consumerism Jap amp, again; if u search for good sound limit at 2.5k, you cant avoid having them into your shortlist of amp.

If u have a pre amp out from ur CD(provided volume is not digitally amplified) or whatever the source, I do suggest u got a power amp... u can get more from ur money that way. NAD 272? dont know still available or not.

I can very assure you if u spent 4K to buy a used Krell KAV300i is far more better than buy a 6K brand new Exposure.
Same concept if you spent RM500 bucks for a Creek or NAD 3020i
is more worthy than spent RM2K for a Marantz intergrated.. but buy old stuff got tricks and you need to do homework before made the purchase.
same like buying a secondhand car, is always good if you can bring along a mechanic for a test drive.. gud luck !

Hi Allen, I would agree with some of them who said to buy a used Krell instead of a brand new amp for the same amount of $$$$! It's beside the quality built, it's the ability to deliver the music when u needed to listen and I mean really listen, loud that is. Nevermind if u think u are not going to listen loud at all, there will come a time when u want to listen loud, well at least maybe once in a while even if u think u won't be pushing the amp to do the impossible.

Btw the current cambridge amps are not in the same kind of built as the much older ones. Then again u need to refurbish an older model if u can find one. The older ones come with the facility to defeat the tone control and work as a straight line amp and comes with very big toroidal (twin rail as well). Not so like the smaller ones i see in the current models. If u want to listen to how older cambridge amp sounds like do pm me. Not great like krell, but it do play loud enuf when i want it to.

hey uncle vic, i use to have a Cambridge Audio A75 power + Cambridge Audio C75 preamp. walaoeh, it sounds gud to me last time. It betters my previous own Audiolab 8000 leh. New Cambridge Audio i never listen liaw..

hi Wabun, i have a cambridge integer. very old. one of the early ones. don't know if it's in the vintage category. maybe to some audiophiles 'beh tahan' the sound. reckon could be different poison to different people la.

Uncle vic, your old cambridge integer is totally different characteristic compare with the new one. I prefer the old one which sound more musical.

Hi KK, yes, it's totally different. Old ones made in England ma. New one made in China leh.

Allen,

I have a Krell integrated amp, bought not too long ago. The made in China krell S-300i. If you are located in KL/PJ area, drop me a PM, I can probably bring my amp to hook up to your speakers for some listening and testing.

I am not selling the amp but just to see if you like the modern Krell sound or not..

Thanks wabun for the advice.

uncle_vic, Thanks for your offer to listen to your cambridge amp. I will pm you if I need that, so kind of you!

Hi Allen, it's just for the listen experience.

Anyway u should take up Happett's offer of a listen. I listened to a friend's setup when another friend brought his krell pre and power to try out. Again it's just for the listen experience.

happett wrote:Allen,

I have a Krell integrated amp, bought not too long ago. The made in China krell S-300i. If you are located in KL/PJ area, drop me a PM, I can probably bring my amp to hook up to your speakers for some listening and testing.

I am not selling the amp but just to see if you like the modern Krell sound or not..

this is poisonous. Hook it up with a good source and it will dance the floor

Allen,

I have a Krell integrated amp, bought not too long ago. The made in China krell S-300i. If you are located in KL/PJ area, drop me a PM, I can probably bring my amp to hook up to your speakers for some listening and testing.

I am not selling the amp but just to see if you like the modern Krell sound or not..

Hi happett, sorry, i missed your post, oh yes, I am interested to try it. Will PM you soon.

is that original krell but manufactured in China? Is it very expensive or over my budget? Thanks.

allen6266 wrote:

is that original krell but manufactured in China? Is it very expensive or over my budget? Thanks.

Has anyone come across any "fake" Krells in the Market before?

mugenfoo wrote:

allen6266 wrote:

is that original krell but manufactured in China? Is it very expensive or over my budget? Thanks.

Has anyone come across any "fake" Krells in the Market before?

Probably a re-badged "KLELLS" would surface at the shop in AmCorp Mall.

Everything same one, but half the price of ori Krells. Cheapy Cheapy Cheap Cheap.

I won't be suprised if that happens ..... but it may not be anytime soon.....ssshhhhhhhh.....

cheers

You might want to consider the Exposure 2010S and Roksan Caspian integrateds. IChewy is selling them here at reasonable prices. Both are good amps at their price points.

ryder,

Thanks for informing me, but the items are in Singapore, no chance for me to try it out with my speakers. Remember I prefer punchy , dynamic sound, will this amp give me that effect?
The Exposure is rated at 75 watts pc, and Roksan is 85 watts pc.

Thanks for the info & advices.

Last week I visited CMY & A&L in Sg.Wang. Both shops have friendly peoples there, especially A&L > Mr.Ting.

At A&L, I listened to NAD 326 with Dali (not sure which model), didn't like the sound. Due to times contraints, i didn't try the bigger brother - NAD375.

And at CMY, I like the set they display outside at the coridor, its is powered by Naim pre/power driving Usher bookshelf. I just worry that my expectations is not cheap, whereby my pocket is not that deep..sigh..

About my DIY bookshelf, it sound good to me, and if not mistaken, it manage to reproduce freq from 45 hz onwards.., i like to hear low & punchy bass, do I need an amp with big big power?