speakers placement

hi. would like to go back to the basic. already having my harbeth for 1.5 years, i still cant find the best placement for them (in term of soundstage, bass response and tonal balance). getting more and more frustrated!

need sifu help here regarding speakers placement. how u all actually start off with placement? any equipment or test disc to aid the process?

Got! Use the emperor throne CD la! Narration is in cantonese!!! Surprised eh? Because is produced by the fame Leo Fung, our very own eastern sifu la!

i have the cd. not really that helpful. i spend 3 hours last night listening to track 9 and 13 and shifting my speakers. u may get the imaging correct using the test disc but when listening to other tracks and songs i doesnt sound right.

3 hours only? i thought many guys took months yet not done eh!!!



have fun/regards

not 3 hours. i have been shifting my speakers up down left right since i bought them 1.5 years ago. sometimes up to 3 hours per night but still cant get it right. help!!

Super 5 need to place 8 feet a part to get the best sound staging, and for the bass super 5 will be a bit boxy sound, you can use the sponge from Sam to reduce the boxy sound, minimum distance from wall is 2 feet. After this you can use the CD to get the best placement for your speakers

wah... u only owned super5 for few mths eh

hey..i owned it one year man, shh......

Hi Lam, I think the throne cd will get the imaging right (like us said)........the replaying part of various CDs and with acceptable results will come down to the tonal balance of the sound......which will be affected by many factors including the least factor we think about...which is the room, how the resultant sound reaches our ears.....hence some may like the sound and others may not. Complicated by other factors such as our personal preferences...like whether we like more syrupy vocals from the midrange, or more slam from the bass contents......or more high extensions.....becos we no longer hear so well!

I am just as curious. I have Harbeths as well. Not so concerned over the imaging etc but I cant seem to get the bass to integrate well with the rest of the frequency range. It kinda sticks out....begging for attention. Bass is not boomy.

Some will say its the room but know of another Harbeth owner with this problem. Inspite of what Alan Shaw has to say that his speakers measure well under test conditions etc and tested under domestic conditions.... they arent exactly sympathetic with all rooms. Maybe british homes different from ours.

Higher output amps seem to reduce this problem somewhat which seems to dispell Alans notion that any amp will do with a Harbeth. Maybe we are rquired to play Harbeth in an anechoic chamber.

Real frustrating and sometimes feel like posting on harbeth site, to tell Alan he is talking thru his butt. They now discouraging discussions on the site about use of other equipment with harbeth speakers. Seems like turf protection to me.

annshu88 wrote:Super 5 need to place 8 feet a part to get the best sound staging, and for the bass super 5 will be a bit boxy sound, you can use the sponge from Sam to reduce the boxy sound, minimum distance from wall is 2 feet. After this you can use the CD to get the best placement for your speakers

Hi, could you please share your room dimension? I place them abt 5ft apart in a 12.5 x 14.5 room. I never knew you need 8 feet apart for best soundstaging. Please let us know more.Thank you.

Hi, i put the speakers at hall with measurement 13.5 x 26 ft but is place at long wall side, i tried 6 ft but 8 ft gives the best soundstaging and openness of sound, Super 5 will not give lousy sound even with low end equipment as long as the boomy and boxy sound solved. You may try 8 ft apart since your room is still enough to take this placement.
Cheers

sanguine wrote:I am just as curious. I have Harbeths as well. Not so concerned over the imaging etc but I cant seem to get the bass to integrate well with the rest of the frequency range. It kinda sticks out....begging for attention. Bass is not boomy.

Some will say its the room but know of another Harbeth owner with this problem. Inspite of what Alan Shaw has to say that his speakers measure well under test conditions etc and tested under domestic conditions.... they arent exactly sympathetic with all rooms. Maybe british homes different from ours.

Higher output amps seem to reduce this problem somewhat which seems to dispell Alans notion that any amp will do with a Harbeth. Maybe we are rquired to play Harbeth in an anechoic chamber.

Real frustrating and sometimes feel like posting on harbeth site, to tell Alan he is talking thru his butt. They now discouraging discussions on the site about use of other equipment with harbeth speakers. Seems like turf protection to me.

Some say it is the speakers fault, some say it is the room. In my opinion I feel it is a combination of both the room and speaker placement. Since Lamkochai has had the speakers for 1 1/2 years and issues are still not resolved, I suspect the room is at fault. Well, to be sure of this one can plonk a different speaker into the same space and see the results. Some speakers will show better results in terms of bass balance and soundstaging. Maybe it is time for a change in speaker -- the Revel floorstanders, Wilson Sashas and Eggleston speakers are looking good. :-)

The SHL5s do not go low down the frequency spectrum. Not too sure about your description in the bass but that may be one reason why it is sticking out in your case. When placed out of wall boundaries especially in a huge living hall the bass impact will reduce, and the bass will sound like what you have described in "crying for attention" as part of the low bass goes missing and the higher bass becomes more prominent. Yes the Harbeths are not boomy. In fact I am using a subwoofer to reinforce the lower bass of the SHL5s. Since the speakers are placed considerably out from wall boundaries in my room, I find the sub to bring a significant improvement in the bass department, much more impact in the low end registers.

As for the recent developments in the Harbeth User Group, I am hesitant to add anymore of my thoughts over there as I figured out it is pointless. Alan's mindset is already fixed and he will disregard every opinion from other users. Despite what we contribute to the table of discussion he will not be able to accept them. The level of moderation has gone beyond the boundaries of what most sites practice as a norm. I have never come across a site where posts need to be moderated and in fact editted before they appear in the forum. It is clear that the site is degenerating as most people can't post freely now and can't talk about certain things that are not inline with Harbeth's thoughts(especially Alan's) and philosophies. Imagine when a Harbeth owner just bought an amp, tube or solid-state and wanted to share his findings in the superb sound he has got on the forum, just to find out his post got filtered or altered for some reasons. In fact, a lot of folks especially those from the US have shy away from the HUG and do not post there anymore. I reckon most of them are just watching the drama and not posting anything. It is just pointless and a waste of time to carry on with worthless debate and Alan's perception that all amps will sound the same under controlled conditions and ABX test. In fact he is twisting his own words with contradictory statements as in between lines he mentioned he is not denying that some other amps *may* sound better than some others.

Everybody will have his/her own opinion as all thoughts posted on the forums are diversified. Something would be very wrong if everybody agrees on the same point in the forum. That is what makes the forum a wonderful place to share ideas and opinions. Just take what is useful and disregard what we think is not. For example, Harbeth has recommended absorption in the listening room in one of their "Guideline" pages. It was mentioned that the more damping the better the sound will become. It is the opposite of what I practice as I don't use any absorption on the side and rear walls now and have taken them off completely as they will render music to be dead and shut-in. The two pieces of 3'x6' absorption panels are now lying on the carpet floor in my room, diffusion at both sides near speakers, bare on side walls and diffusion at the rear wall.

The HUG appears to want to take full control by filtering out what they think are inappropriate. As aptly pointed out by a few forummers, we are all adults and can decide for ourselves what is right or wrong. Harbeth is now taking things in their own hands and regards some of our opinions(especially in the topic of amplifiers) as a sin, citing more profit for equipment manufacturers. I am just puzzled on the stance that Harbeth has taken lately, and I am pretty sure most people including myself will contribute less frequently(or not at all) on HUG due to the level of moderation practiced. One of my friends has associated Alan with Hitler with his obstinacy.

It appears I have gone out of track. Sorry for the long-winded post.

Distance between speakers is dependent on the width of the room in getting the best sound and balance in bass and soundstaging etc. In my room the SHL5s are placed at 6 feet apart after numerous trial and errors, and the position has not changed for couple of months now. When you get the speakers dialled in you would know you have got it right as we spend countless of hours listening to our favourite collection of music.

Just to add on: Its very easy to talk about how to place speakers based on guidelines and other forummers' postings etc etc etc. But when it all comes down to really placing the speakers' position in each individual unique room, this is where the proof is in the pudding. Some forummers would have experienced this in real life recently.

The only real advice anyone can give is for the listener to keep doing trial and error until the magical spot is found, and then try summore as its a never ending game. Some computer software simulation might help, but its never close to 100% accurate. Then keep trying again until one's satisfied, or burnt-out from all these sonic and hearing analytics, then its just time to kick back , be less fussy, accept some compromises, don't chase perfection and just enjoy the music instead.

mugenfoo wrote:Just to add on: Its very easy to talk about how to place speakers based on guidelines and other forummers' postings etc etc etc. But when it all comes down to really placing the speakers' position in each individual unique room, this is where the proof is in the pudding. Some forummers would have experienced this in real life recently.

The only real advice anyone can give is for the listener to keep doing trial and error until the magical spot is found, and then try summore as its a never ending game. Some computer software simulation might help, but its never close to 100% accurate. Then keep trying again until one's satisfied, or burnt-out from all these sonic and hearing analytics, then its just time to kick back , be less fussy, accept some compromises, don't chase perfection and just enjoy the music instead.

with this i can agree!!!

i always think that when it comes to speaker placements, we are working with 2 unknowns i.e. listening position and speaker placements

which unknown is to be fixed first? place the speakers first or sit down first? i have mine "almost" done, but never ever done that said, music has to play lah...


have fun!

tlkoo wrote:

which unknown is to be fixed first? place the speakers first or sit down first?

It can be done simultaneously. Place one speaker, say right, at listening position. Stand at right speaker "position' and move right-left, and front-back while listening to some music to ascertain the best location and mark it for the right speaker location. Repeat for left speaker. Toe-in can be adjusted by playing in mono mode to zero in on the sweet spot.

Place one speaker, say right, at listening position. Stand at right speaker "position' and move right-left, and front-back while listening to some music to ascertain the best location and mark it for the right speaker location.

I am afraid this wouldn't work well in an uneven room. Like Live end Dead end room. Your sitting position maybe in the Live End and the sound perceived at the dead end will be different. But that is an excellent way to setup subwoofer.

My 2cents,
STC

Could be your room or your ears or a combination of both.
The best sound I had was living in a large attic in England in the 80s and had perfect acoustics by default I guess. The room had is a perfect rectangle and I fire the speakers widthwise. The ceiling slopes in front of me and the back. Floors were fully carpeted of course and the walls were plasterboard lined. System was Linn Sondek, Crimson amps and Dean Alto speakers on solid stands 2 feet from wall toed in. Nothing came close today. I don't get the superb bass reverb on 'The Goodbye Look' on Donald Fagen's 'Nightfly' anymore no matter how I look for it. Magic then. Or is it my aging ears?

Come to think of it I may recreate the shape and materials of that Attic since I'm building a new house now. Will report outcome.

Lamkochai wrote:not 3 hours. i have been shifting my speakers up down left right since i bought them 1.5 years ago. sometimes up to 3 hours per night but still cant get it right. help!!

Dear Lamkochai, may I know what is the dimensions (L,W & H)of your sound room? Perhaps some descriptions of finishes would be better especially like whether you have any plaster ceiling? What are your equipments?

Thanks,
Jo Ki

If Lamkochai's system is still in the same space at the ground floor of the living room, the pictures of his system can be viewed in page 1 of the thread below.

https://www.hifi4sale.net/general-non-equipment-discussions-f11/overwhelming-bass-t6219.htm

Hi Mr Lam K,
This is what I can offer as an suggestion
The last 3 years I been quite active listening to various systems, for simplification, this is what I would do:
* Pre- set up of speaker placement : I do not know how to explain this scientifically - but you need to place your equipment neat , symmetrically, no glass tables in front- refection of sound, no glass TVs/panel if possible, amp behind the speakers, etc- this is probably psycho acoustic
1. Get the vocal/singer position right- this is done by testing with a familiar well recorder track. Still concentrating on the vocal, after you got it right center, look for solidness of the singer image and focus. toe in and toe out also depends on the speaker design on the on and off axis response. In my opinion it is not necessary for both the length of the speakers to be of same length apart - one can go off 10-20 degree off depends on the room! The 1.5 ratio from listening position and width is a good guide.
2. Voicing of the singer and instruments- ie, if you find a lot "siblance' in the vocal, reduce to toe in. Also other instruments, the strumming/stricke of the guitar , the blowing of the saxophone- the air around the sound, etc
3. Depth and Width of the entire musical presentation- check if the presentation has depth - behind the speakers and width beyond the speakers boundaries.
4. GOOGLE the Absolute Sound (USA MAG) reviewers set up - They have Harley, Garcia, etc - sharing their set- up with photos and also about their realism triggers and inhibitors trigger.http://www.avguide.com/forums/high-end-audio/reviewer-background-information . Study them in details and carefully although they may have different systems and music.
5. Highly recommended Frank Tchang resonators to try them out .... for less than MYR 5K for a start, Resonators theory "sound is actually of vibration of the air around us" especially if you have limitation i terms of room size, placement , etc.... The biggest improvement is at the most challenging part; the bass, focus and the tonality and timbre.
6. Best of luck as it can take you several months and years to get this "right"
On the music tracks, listen to a good vocal presentation, classical and a modern JAZZ piece with a heavy bass presentation.
Of course not forgetting the limitation of your other components- preamp, amp and source, cables, current supply, etc
Hope this help!

thank you for all the feedback. yes my system still remain the same except that i have change to more powerful 40w unison research amp.

room dimension about 20ft x 20ft x 15ft. no plaster ceiling just brick (double storey house) with marble floor. i dont put carpet as they collect dust easily. room slightly treated with 6 pieces of Auralex LERNDS foam (put at corner to treat the bass but this doesnt seems to work), 2 pieces of absorption panel at the back of my seating position, some RPG diffuser(the highway laser type) and ebony pieces of wood at the back of the speakers.

no proper hifi rack but the equipment are all put on entertainment rack made by Lorenzo. I have tried multiple tweak beneath my cd player and amp such as finite element ceraball and the magnetic type (forgot the name, its imported by mr chang's sound precision the dealer for manger) but all have overall impact taht i dont like. havent tried the more expensive Harmonix foot though but they are out of my league. Have recently add on a purepower 2000 and this improve the sound abit but still overall sound is dissapointed for waht i have paid.

my system main prob:
1) BASS!! like what sanguine experienced. the bass from my harbeth sound like disintegrated with other spectrum of music. it is a beat slower, fat and fairly boom esp when i listen to electronic music and bass coming out from electronic bass guitar. i have put my speaker in alot of position and different toe in angle but still not helping. the auralex foam is like uselss at all. may try the frank resonator as the demo done by cmy is fairly impressive

2) imaging and position. my english is not that good so its quite hard to describe this. it seems like every musical instrument and the singer grow in size. some time i can feel that the cai qin mouth is so big that it can swallow a whole buffalo. the piano is so big that u need a chair with wheels to play from lower octave to the high one. this situation can be rectify by different toe in angle but i lose a bit on the tonality so quite hard to balance it. need tips from sifu in doing this. shall i remove all my foam and diffusal and putting them back 1 by 1 again?

some of my friends say the matching of my equipment is not that good. harbeht, unison research valve amp and musical fidelity a5 cd player and Transparent cables all are warm in nature so adding up too much of a thing. this i agree as my system sound less transparent (despite the transparent cable i use) and the high is not that good and airy.

some people say controlling resonance for the equipment is very important. will a dedicated hifi rack (like those made by finite element) improve the sound by day and night esp the bass? or adding some Frank Tsang resonator will be the better idea and has more noticeable changes?

Hi Lamkochai,
I think I may be repeating this for a 2nd time since the last time we spoke.

Is there any chance you can place your SHL5 in your bedroom for a few days? I have experienced listening to the SHL5 in my living hall and can more or less understand your situation. Although the SHL5s in my living room do not sound as bad as you have described, there is a BIG difference in presentation when the speakers are placed in a smaller dedicated room compared to the huge living hall. I actually intend to place the SHL5s in the living hall as the dedicated room is meant for Home Theater, but after listening to the SHL5s in the dedicated room the speakers are not going back to the living. The SHL5s sound better *to my ears and preference* in a smaller dedicated room with improved imaging, coherence and control.

If you have no other choice then to stick with the current configuration, I would advise listening to the SHL5s in nearfield configuration to ameliorate the ill-effects in the bass, imaging, sound of Cai Qin being as wide as a buffalo, whatever. Try pulling your speakers out from wall boundaries and listen at a distance of not more than 6' from the speakers. I don't think you can improve the sound drastically with a change in equipment as the problem lies predominantly in the room.

Frank's resonator's are worth a try though, and I would be curious to know if they can manage to bring an appreciable difference to your system and resolve your misery once and for all.

Lamkochai,

Remember the conversation we had some time ago ? For what it may be worth, I still think there are two big potential issues with your system:

1. Room dimension is simply extremely unfavourable. You wrote 20fit by 20ft. That is a perfect square !! I have experience with a friend's room which is also near squarish in shape and I can tell you we had an extremely tough time trying to control the bass boom. Eventually he (rich guy lar) got professional recording studio wall panels to cover part of his wall. Remember we were talking about the Helmholtz resonator ? I still strongly believe you need to investigate into that direction. Also, I remember you have already tried the 1/3 speaker placement rule to not much effect. But have you tried to listen for resonance focal points in the room and then placing your room treatment stuff there to try to interfere and prevent the resonance focal points from building up too much power ?

2. I remember you did explain to me how you are somewhere stuck with the Unison Research but again for whatever it might be worth, I still feel your amp might have some issues trying to drive and control the Harbeths. Being studio monitor in pedigree, it is really quite unreasonable for them to have slow boomy bass. I still remember trying to drive a pair of Centaur Majors with my Audio Research Classic 60 and I can tell you, the sound is very bass flabby, slow, lots of bass overhang, etc. Personally I was disgusted at the sound. I wonder if this might be similar to your problem.

It's been some months since we discussed and it is sad to hear that you are still struggling with the same problem, even after you spent lots of money upgrading the Unison Research. With apologies to fans of this amp, perhaps you might just want to take a hit and pain now and just change the amp ? Of course you really need to test any replacement properly.

But first you MUST try the room treatment approach first, especially the building of some Helmholtz resonators and also to try to locate the boom focal points in your room and to try to break up those resonance points. Did you get that test CD and try to play various pure tones in the room to identify those frequencies which causes the bass boom ? Finally, I think your Harbeths are ported speakers right ? Have you tried to use foam or something to plug up the port (hole) ? Did it have any effect ?

I have heard this amp too and I seem to echo what wong said. I hope I have not disturbed the community. If u are disturbed, pls look for Wong, I am the smaller evil.

An add-on, try to borrow a Naim Nait XS or Supernait if possible and see if it can help alleviate the flaws you are experiencing in your system. Although the room remains the biggest problem, the Unison Research may contribute a small part to the problem.

Mr. KNWong,

Can you tell me a bit more about the Helmholtz resonators. I understand their function but have always understood them to be big boxes unlike some of the panel resonators I have seen on a local hifi site.

Are the resonators you have in mind of the panel type and who produces them locally? What frequency range can these resonators cater to? Interested as may like to experiment with a few.

Thanks.

Bite wrote:Mr. KNWong,

Can you tell me a bit more about the Helmholtz resonators. I understand their function but have always understood them to be big boxes unlike some of the panel resonators I have seen on a local hifi site.

Are the resonators you have in mind of the panel type and who produces them locally? What frequency range can these resonators cater to? Interested as may like to experiment with a few.

Thanks.

http://www.lautsprechershop.de/tools/index_en.htm?/tools/t_helmholtz_en.htm

Thanks tlkoo. Useful information.

Ok, so I fashion panel/s to size according to the problematic frequency but how do i determine how many panels are required to address the problem? Matter of trial and error?

How thick does the panel casing have to be?

Sorry, my last question refers to the thickness of the material required to construct the panel. I am thinking plywood. Thanks.

Lam,

Before you spend anymore money on corrective measures suggest you borrow a SS amp 150 watts or more. See if the buffalo is now downsized. My guess it could be your amp. If problem persist then its confirmed your room. Also listen nearfield. Good luck

Helmholtz resonators are really boxes - they MUST have an internal volume. Then there is a port, much like the port of a box speaker, through which a tube is inserted. Actually in construction it is pretty much like a speaker cabinet without the drivers/woofers. In fact, a box speaker is in some way a Helmholtz resonator.

What happens is as bass gets into the box, the resonance inside serves to cancel out the sound, effectively absorbing those bass that gets into the box. What is the frequency that the box will absorb ? From what I remember, it is determined by the internal volume of the box, the diameter of the port/hole, plus the length of the tube. To increase or decrease the amount of absorption, you can put foam or absorbant materials inside. Obviously a small box, eventhough properly sized will only be able to absorb so much sound so for very bad boom, more than 1 box might be needed. I remember reading on the internet for DIY recording studio fans of plans for a recording studio where an entire wall is made up of multiple helmholtz resonators.

I used to have the formula to calculate the frequency of absoprtion for a box of given volume, port diameter and tube length but I am afraid I have lost it (the formula). I have tried to google on the net but could not find the formula. I originally got the formula from a mailing list for hifi fans based in the U.S.A., more than 20 years ago (which indicates how long I have been 'playing' hifi and how old I am ).

With due respect Lam I've seen pics of your set up and the room they're in.

Here's the thing. Most British, American and European homes are fully carpeted wooden floors and the walls and ceilings are plasterboard lined for heat insulation. I know that for sure, I'm an architect and British trained and have travelled most of Europe and some parts of the States.

Without being too technical about room acoustics and reverberation and absorption measurements, Alan Shaw and most speaker designers from the West optimize their sound for the average western homes bro. Hard marbled floors, cement plastered brick and concrete walls and ceilings will not work, you cant stuff enough absorbent furniture and gadgets to simulate the typical Western(read cold climate) living room without turning it into some strange looking living space. That is typical Malaysian living room you have. Period. Your best bet is a proper listening room and simulate the the finishes as above. Many of us spend tons on equipment but do not do them or ourselves justice by sticking them in our 'hard' living room. It's a fundamental problem.

That's the reason I moved my system into my (admittedly largish) bedroom long ago. Lots of rugs on the parquet therefore timber floor and the ceiling is already plasterboard lined. I listen to my music on my bed set squarely in front of my speakers and I read as a habit while listening to music which suits me.

I'm building a house next month and for the first time I will have a proper acoustically designed music room with a help from an acoustic engineer.

Sorry if this doesn't help your situation but I hope you will find a way. Cheers.

sorry for making u all boring. may be its time to change my amp or speaker...... pain pain pain.

Hi Lamkochai,

Yes it is frustrating. I went through the same problem for years and like you moved my speakers countless times. I am still moving them. Changed speakers and amps.....many times. While change in speakers and amps help to some degree, it doesnt eliminate the problem. The problem still exists in my listening area.

What Wan Azami and others have said are correct, it has to do with construction materials, size and shape of our rooms, more specifically the simple law of physics, played out in our rooms. Afraid room treatment is the best cure and way to go. Not always possible for several reasons, WAF and many a time we just dont know how to address the problem.

I am of the view that changing equipment isnt the solution. By all means try to borrow other amps but I am guessing it isnt going to solve the problem. For your sake, I hope I am wrong.

Thats the reason for my interest in the Helmholtz resonator. From what I gather, it may be possible to fabricate a few (not too many I hope) to integrate with the room making it more acceptable to SHE who must be obeyed.

Mr. Wong, thanks for your response. Tlkoo's link gives me some idea of the size of the resonators and looking at the calculations looks like they can be fabricated to blend in with the decor, at least the walls (I hope the problem isnt tangential involving the ceiling/floor). If indeed the solution then a matter of how many. Based upon information gleaned from the internet my problem frequencies are in multiples of 28hz. Since my speakers cant deliver below 40hz, will have to concentrate from 56hz up.

If that is the way to go, perhaps some one can give me some idea how thick the plywood. Should I start with 1/2"?

Thanks.

Hi Bite, how are things getting on.............look at this blog..........

http://h1f1.blogspot.com/search/label/Acoustic

the owner/writer has relocated to K.Lumpur and he is staying near my place......perhaps u like to meet him for teh tarik and talk about this topic....u get 1st hand reporting la.


My views on Lam's problem are different............i find lots/loads of bass energy wasted away..........with the absorption of this energy.........as i said my views are different...........i believe in utilising it (if not used it's wasted away)...........nevermind let lam come visit me next week i will show him some solutions i had used successfully for years(my own proprietary designs) since the idea was mooted some 20 years ago(that goes to show how long i've being in hifi ) Just for u laugh this morning.....hah, hah, hah!!!!

Dear Lam,

Please hold your horses, changing equipment and speakers will not make the problem go away entirely. From my limited understanding of your system, and seeing the picture of it (TX Ryder for the pointer) you need to work on the followings:-
1. Speaker positioning fundamentally.
2. System set-up

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the SHL5 speakers of yours. Monitors are such that it behaves like a scientific tool and readily shows you the wrong measurement when you feed wrong signal to it. You should welcome an accurate and honest speakers than one that pleases you no matter what you do; such speakers are less susceptible to set-up but it has far lower threshold in fidelity.

Your speakers sits in position which excites too much of the room boundary acoustically. Eventhough it is 20' x 20', I presume that it opens into your dining and form the shape of lateral L-shape? So it will not be a square? Even if it is a square, the size is relatively large that the "square space" sound syndrome would be relatively low. You have tried 1/3 theory, width or speaker spacing?

I hope your 40W UR is not the power amp based on 845 output tubes? If it is, it would compound the problem as it will lifts the mid-base bloom of SHL5 overly. For what I know, there isn't many well designed 845 amp particularly from UR which I am very familiar with. Aplogise, no intention to discredict the good names.

Resonance control of a system very much depends of correct understanding of the science behind it. If cones do not make any improvement on your system, it is because the sub-bearing surface where the equipment sits failed to work. There is also issues of resolution of your system which could also curtailed the effects prematurely.

Avoid dumping more money into acoustics gadgets for the time being, they would not be able to correct problems lies in the structure of sound. Always bearing in mind that all acoustics resonators works and triggered by sound from your speakers, the sound from your speakers are most dynamic, there is no way resonance of resonator of any kind could overcome the energy of the inducer(source). Common sense. If the sound from speakers sound wrong, it will be wrong.

Tackle the basic fundamentals. Stop buying equipment. Spend more times in your set-up, and trouble shoot the problem head-on. Do not seek helps from your wallet whenever you hit the wall.

I wish you Good Luck.

Jo Ki

Sound advice from Jo on speaker placement and system setup. I reckon Lamkochai may have tried that throughout the 1 1/2 years of ownership of his SHL5 speakers?

Tackling room issues in Lamkochai's living room may not be as straightforward as it seems to be due to the awkward shape with a lot of hard surfaces and openings. Although large Helmholtz resonators or some other forms of acoustic products may help, these are more like large furnitures, and several of them may be required for optimum results. Not too sure if WAF is an issue with the other half as brought up by Bite especially when the system is in a living room. I have also read that the resonators can be DIY'd with description and tips available on the net. Also, there is lack of wall support on the right across to the dining table. No matter what is done to the room, the sound will escape to the far end of the room and the delay in reflections will cause the sound to blow up in proportion as the presentation sound bigger as it should.

For some easy listening and background music I reckon the system would do just fine in the current space in the living. If one's requirement is higher, an ideal listening environment coupled with good system setup and speaker positioning are mandatory. With a less than ideal listening environment as with Lamkochai's system, one is limited to what he can achieve in setup and speaker placement IMO.

I suppose Lamkochai can look into any of the following:-
1) Serious effort goes to the room(treatment stuff and WAF considerations)
2) Move the SHL5s to another room or space. If not possible, sell them and get a smaller speaker that can fit into a smaller space ie. the bedroom.
3) Lower down your expectations.

Similarly to everyone, I wish him luck as well. Tough luck after 1 1/2 years.

Lam, you are quite the joker. That Cai Qin swallowing buffalo and pianist on rolling chair description really cracked me up.

I know most of this is fundamental stuff that you probably know already, but if you want to tighten up the imaging, you still need to do one or all of the following:
- Toe in the speakers more
- Treat the first reflection points
- Try the Frank Tchang products. Suggest starting with the cheaper products first before going to the more expensive Resonators only if necessary - 1 Diffusor to be placed on the wall directly ahead of the listening position (helps to focus) and 1 Phase Inverter (looks like a Resonator without the metal cup on top) to be placed on the floor directly below the Diffusor

If still not satisfactory, you could borrow a few Resonators to try. For flabby and boomy bass problem which I also faced in my square room, I found that 3 Resonators placed low in the front corners and the low center position helped a lot.

Looking at the pics of your listening area, I would guess that your main problem would be what i call the "living hall sound" ie. echoey hollow sound that results from all the hard surfaces. I have never been able to do much about that problem without adding more soft furnishings like rugs etc. Those few Auralex diffusors/absorbers that you have placed around won't make any difference as you have observed yourself - The ratio of untreated to treated surfaces is still too high. In a living room, I understand you can't be sticking too many conspicuous room treatment around which is why I was recommending you explore the Frank Tchang stuff, but try before you buy.

Hi uncle_vic,

I am well thanks. Looks like bass absorbers to me but I think the resonators are going to be more effective and acceptable.

I will be back over the weekend and after I settle in, will give you a buzz for that cup of tea. Interested in how you have addressed the matter as well.

Before trying anything, I would advice to read Jo Ki's post thoroughly first. He is trying to advice on the most important fundamental of all - that the system itself must be proper set-up, including speaker placement. This I would assume Lamkochai has done already given that I last spoke to him many months ago and we were talking about roughly the same problem at that time. So I would assume he has tried those 1/3 speaker placement, some degree of wall treatment especially at the reflection points, ensure system is set-up properly, equipment properly seated and supported, etc.

Jo, it was Long's room I was referring to that was the problematic square-ish room. We had a lot of problem trying to tame the bass boom and he was using a smallish (but very high quality lar) speaker some-more. Eventually I built a simple helmholtz resonator using a cardbox box, tuned to the frequency I calculated using a program for computing room resonance frequency according to dimension of room (and which once again I have lost it !! ) It was mildly effective. So eventually we had a carpenter made several similar ones using thick MDF board. That helped to tame the boom to the extend that we could progress using standard room treatment and speaker placement, etc techniques to further improve the sound. Then we met Ley who helped us get those studio wall panels which is now being used in the room.

Bite & Ryder and everyone else who is interested in the helmholtz resonator, the original author who posted in that mailing list made a joke which to me turned out to be quite a good advice. He said if one is willing to sacrifice, to turn that expensive antique wooden coffee table into a helmholtz resonator by drilling a hole into it. But it then occured to me that WAF can be tackled very well if the resonators can be integrated into a shape that can serve as a coffee table ! Or as part of a cupboard (maybe the bottom section is a resonator and the top section is for displaying items) and so forth.

Like some, I do not agree for Lamkochai to spend money at this stage. If he indeed has exhausted all avenues for speaker placement and system tuning and WAF is preventing him from putting more wall treatment, then IMHO he needs to take a close look at the helmholtz resonator as a last resort. Only as a last resort.

When a system is placed in a typical irregular shaped living/dining area adjoining an open stairwell area like Lam's, are those 1/3 or 1/5 speaker placement ratios even relevant? Furthermore, if you then consider his whole living/dining area as one room, his system is not even placed in the center of that room so how do you begin to use ratios to determine speaker positioning? My thinking is that those ratios are more relevant if you have a reasonably symmetrical and enclosed room with four walls.

And what if he finds the ideal position for his speakers, but that means they're placed slap bang in the middle of his living room? No matter what, that would not be acceptable unless he drags his speaker out to that position everytime he wants to listen.

My point is, in a living room environment, you have only a small area that the speakers can acceptably be positioned. So place them there, experiment with toe-in, and then try to fix the acoustics with room treatments.

Many valve amps have low output impedence which results in low "damping factor" which results in boomy and flabby bass.

borrow a solid-state amp and check if the bass of the Harbeths is still problematic.

sflam wrote:Many valve amps have low output impedence which results in low "damping factor" which results in boomy and flabby bass.

borrow a solid-state amp and check if the bass of the Harbeths is still problematic.

I agree that this is an experiment worth doing to identify/eliminate another potential culprit of his bass boom.

Just to share an anecdote which hopefully isn't that pointless. I used to have a system sitting in a room about 18ft x 10.5ft and no matter what I did in terms of speaker positioning or listener positioning, there was absolutely no bass. Then that exact system was moved into an irregular shaped living/dining area about 23ft x 15ft x 20ft high ceiling and the bass miraculously (well, actually not that miraculous) appeared.

I guess certain rooms are either bass heavy or bass light depending on whether it has bass reinforcement or bass cancellation issues and in my example above, it does not always equate to smaller room = more bass and vice versa. Should all attempts at fixing the problem fail, then I guess in Lam's case, it may leave him no choice but to switch to a smaller speaker with less bass.