All DAC (D/A Converter) Enthusiast Take Note!

bassraptor wrote:
Just a thought - the costliest TT setup I can think of is the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn Reference ... about US$150,000 before adding cartridge. Is there any digital player, transport or DAC close to that price? Perhaps the dcs system would get close?

dCs 3 units comprising transport, DAC, and clock unit would probably be around USD50,000

Ok OK
Now the discussion is swayed again to vinyl vs digital.

Who here can afford the Continuum if it cost USD150K or the Dcs?

What I am trying to bring forth here is not to discount the Laptop/media player as an alternative source.

99% of the forummer here owns either a laptop, pc or mac. Look, you already owns the hardware. You just need time to implement it.
(A lot of people thought that playing files thru PC/Mac is MP3 thru the 3.5mm headphone output).

Download a good free ripping software (DbPower and not window media) and rip according to the purist way and you have the source....thousands of albums(depending on yr collection) without costing a single cent.

Then download a good media center (Jr, foobar, itunes, etc) and you have almost everything to start computer audio.

Then hook it up to yr legacy DAC (using a USB to spdif interface like m2tech) costing approx RM400+) and you have a full new format playing digital files.

A good setup with proper DAC wld be able to compare or better than RM10K CD player. Blind testing will tell. Look to HiFi Unlimited for local reference.
Unless you are using reference CD player, Computer audio is the logical choice.

So what I am introducing is the most cost effective format which can only be improved with time. Probably a format of the future.

Vinyl should sound better but are you going to start now assuming you do not even have a single LP???

How much do you have to invest before you have a decent table and substantial collection of LP's. And mind you, not all LP sounds good.

It is a tedious merry go round again.

I have over the years owned many turntable ranging from Thorens, Rega, Oracle, Linn and Clearaudio. My last turntable is the Rega P9 coz I wanted to downsize and wanted a simple no fuss table. I have since sold it.

I still have around 2000 LPs. Some normal, some sounded horrible, some 180g direct cut 45rpm etc. , some audiophile,...venus..etc.

It is now safely keep untouched, for sentimental value.

So I roughly know what I am talking about.

I just wanted to introduce the joy of a new format, but to really appreciate it, one shd use proper USB/firewire DAC capable of accepting Hi Rez files and source must be properly ripped or listening to native 24/96 or 192.

No intention to compare it to vinyl.. and to right the misconception that Wong wrote.

End of story for me. Thanks for reading.

VS126: Point taken ... we each do what we enjoy most and affords us most pleasure and satisfaction.

I went through the Rega, Linn, Michell, Clearaudio route through 15 years, then sold off the last TT but kept my records, some years ago. Got back to the game again but it was CD to start with and then, gradually went through the Rega, Vyger, Nottingham Audio, Clearaudio route. Briefly, I downloaded stuff on my laptop and ran it via a DAC to my system. It was fun for a while and I even liked a good part of what I heard. Then I got bored, and with a few hundred LPs staring at me, a spirited return to vinyl was inevitable. Maybe it's the hands-on involvement as well ... plus the fact that I've found a wonderful LP cleaning formula!

VS126 wrote:Mister Wong,

You keep harping on 2L,

Do some research lah.

I already did but I couldn't find any of those music I want in high-res. The best I could find was -some- on SACD, which I guess you consider it as high-res. I already asked a specific question. Are those music I listed available in at least 24/96 or not ? Bear in mind that different people have their own taste for their own music and everyone is entitled to that right. So, can I get Dire Straits in 24/96 ? Even if I get Norah Jones, or even Tsai Chin on 24/96, I would be happy already. Are those available. I am asking since I did enough research already and I am -not- convinced.

VS126,

I totally agreed with you on this. I am in the process of ripping my 200+ cds and play back using el cheapo media player in the living room for easy listening.

Looking for Logitech Squeebox Touch for my main system. Anybody know where to buy this?

Its touching to me to hear someone who owns 2000 lps, sell off his tt and advocating computer audio. Yet there are 'expert' promoting tt to me if i am real music lover.

I have never own lp and never will. some will say never say never! cheers

I wanted to stop writing on this topic, guess this is my final on CA.
Full collection of Beatles on HiRez, Paul McCartney Band On The Run, Peter Frampton Comes Alive, Duke Ellington, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Tom Petty-Damn The Torpedos, Diana Krall Quiet Nights, From this moment, Various Sara K, Camomile various albums, Chye Ayode, Kinks, Dire Straits, Peter Frampton Latest Album-Winston Churchill, Chesky Jazz, Johnathan Livingston, Ana caram, Christy Baron, Claire Martin, Steve Vai, Ray Charles, Robert Plant, Allison Krauss, and others. I hv to chk my collection.
As for classical, most of the released are treasured and musical gems of famous composers. Chk Linn, HD tracks , Reference Records, chesky, etc etc.
It is true that it is still in it's infancy, limited release but we are expending both ways.ie new hirez and our own cd collections or friend's.

Lately, there has been a lot of release of popular rock and famous albums. But the way, no matter how fast they release, how many albums can you purchase? At 30 to 40USD per download.
The Beatles full anthology is a few hundred bucks. And let me tell you, you never realise Beatles sounded so good. The one you purchased at local Cd store, the remastered issue are actually 24 bit but downsampled to Cd format at 16 bits.

As I mentioned b4, the hirez is the icing on the cake. Look at the thousands of albums that can be ripped. And it is sounding decent too, with a proper DAC and setup, probably better than the CD player that you currently own.
Unless you own reference CD player

Chang,

Pls do not quote me that I say computer audio is better than Vinyl. It is just that I got tired of vinyl. Went off then come back into it and got tired of it again.

Think of all the dust and hard work setting it up and playing. Cannot be couch potato and be the master of command. With vinyl, you are the slave.
With computer audio, you are the master.

I hate to get up and cue whenever I want to listen to particular track again and again.

BTW, the squeezebox is not a wise buy if you want good sonics.
You will be getting just average sound. Get a good DAC, you will not look back.

chang wrote:VS126,

I totally agreed with you on this. I am in the process of ripping my 200+ cds and play back using el cheapo media player in the living room for easy listening.

Looking for Logitech Squeebox Touch for my main system. Anybody know where to buy this?

Its touching to me to hear someone who owns 2000 lps, sell off his tt and advocating computer audio. Yet there are 'expert' promoting tt to me if i am real music lover.

I have never own lp and never will. some will say never say never! cheers

A music lover should not discriminate on formats .. whether its LP, or CD, or MP3, or AAC, or 24/96, or 30ips reels, etc ....

After all, the format is just a "tool" for humans to enjoy the music.
Some higher quality than others, some more portable & convenient than others. Its always a compromise here and there.

'nuff said.

When Mugen speaks, everyone listens.

Music lover listen to any format (for convenience). Usually have hugh music collections.

Audiophiles tweaks and tweaks and never get their systems right day after day. After they got it right, they listen to only certain albums

VS126 wrote:I wanted to stop writing on this topic, guess this is my final on CA.
Full collection of Beatles on HiRez, Paul McCartney Band On The Run, Peter Frampton Comes Alive, Duke Ellington, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Tom Petty-Damn The Torpedos, Diana Krall Quiet Nights, From this moment, Various Sara K, Camomile various albums, Chye Ayode, Kinks, Dire Straits, Peter Frampton Latest Album-Winston Churchill, Chesky Jazz, Johnathan Livingston, Ana caram, Christy Baron, Claire Martin, Steve Vai, Ray Charles, Robert Plant, Allison Krauss, and others. I hv to chk my collection.
As for classical, most of the released are treasured and musical gems of famous composers. Chk Linn, HD tracks , Reference Records, chesky, etc etc.
It is true that it is still in it's infancy, limited release but we are expending both ways.ie new hirez and our own cd collections or friend's.

Lately, there has been a lot of release of popular rock and famous albums. But the way, no matter how fast they release, how many albums can you purchase? At 30 to 40USD per download.
The Beatles full anthology is a few hundred bucks. And let me tell you, you never realise Beatles sounded so good. The one you purchased at local Cd store, the remastered issue are actually 24 bit but downsampled to Cd format at 16 bits.

As I mentioned b4, the hirez is the icing on the cake. Look at the thousands of albums that can be ripped. And it is sounding decent too, with a proper DAC and setup, probably better than the CD player that you currently own.
Unless you own reference CD player

So, you are saying all those things, especially the Beatles collection are available in HD. So the final question. HD 24/96 or 24/192, i.e. what format. And, where do I find them.

Bear in mind you are the guy who started with 'your glass is full, empty and learn'. And I have always wrote that I am always learning and willing to learn. But after searching through the internet for so long, I have not found what I want - again i.e. -my- music tastes, on HD. Only available on CD. Thus my approach that if it is digital, it seems the approach for the moment has to be CD based but implemented properly.

You can find Full reissue 24 bit Beatles on HD Track. I believe it covers the whole Beatles collection.
Recent release on Paul McCartney's 'Band On The Run'(one of my favourite)
and George Harrison's 'All Thngs Must Pass'
John Lennon's 'Imagine' should be coming out soon

I might be a bit rowdy and ruffle some of yr feathers.
If it makes you feel better, I let you copy any one of the Beatles HiRez album.

Cheers
Cheers.

Wonder if they'll release the Beatles collection on LP? Or did they do it while I was sleeping.

You can enjoy good music and a good system, too. Takes up time, but if you love both enough, why not? My appreciation of good music is further heightened when I hear it on a good system. Well, depending on the recording ... if it isn't so good, I rip it to my iPod for in-car enjoyment. 320kbps MP3 files don't sound too bad at all, i tell you.

nt

nt

I know about them. If you remember I went to other extremist way for a while when I was younger - I totally ditched CD and went only with LPs and was playing only what was available. A number of labels in there were with me during those 'dark days'. Those were the days when all I had for Pictures at an Exhibition (for e.g.) was the Chesky LP. I still look back at my foolishness of those days (not meant to say anyone who did similar is to me foolish, I am only talking about my action then). But as a young guy, I was a bit over-confident of my actions at that time. Those were the days I would select music based on what is available on LPs I can buy. I.e. I limit my music to what is available on LP at that time. I did not choose based on music. It was sound first.

So as I explained, it was only Chesky's pictures at an exhibition. Later when I went overseas, I lucked on used record fair and bought some RCA Living Stereo's. The real difference came with the re-issues of Living Stereo's, Living Presence, Decca, EMI, and then later eBay. But today, I am still sad I can't satisfy my music wishes from the 1990s and early 2000s because those are only available on CDs.

So don't take me wrong but I have ALL the Reference records, Linn records, Chesky, Harmonia Mundi's etc 'audiophile' music though that time was reverse, on LP. Sadly they are all in a box now because their music performance, to be frank really can't compare to what the best musicians from EMI, Columbia, etc can do. There is only so many times I can listen to Carole Kidd sing. After a while, I yearn for Carole KING instead !!

So, if you will forgive me, it's a case of me being 'been there, done that'. And I don't cherish the idea of going back there again. So I am crossing my fingers yet keeping a cynical view on the latest developments. Just that I suppose I was too harsh with explaining my points. But I -am- still skeptical of whether high-res music will really move or not. But as you probably have seen, the most exciting development yet to me, is Jo's enthusiasm of the Bryston. Perhaps if I have a chance to experience what you have to offer, I will be as excited or more. I would be ecstatic if that is the case. But unfortunately within my own limited means, I have not yet been excited with the HD development yet. Sonically (until hopefully, the time I get to listen to the Brystons in a good system) and more importantly, the prospect of getting the music I want - i.e. music pieces performed by the musicians I want.

Sadly the list above DO NOT satisfy my music requirements. The only real big name there I can see is SONY Red Seal, Columbia (same as SONY actually) and D-G. They are 'encouraging' but not enough. I need Decca, EMI, Phillips, and a host of other labels in there as well. Or else, I really fear another repeat of Betamax, Super-VHS, HD-DVD, and so forth.

So far, in terms of puchasing so-called HD music off the internet, the best I have found is here ->
https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=staticpage&pagename=specials

I have asked before but no-one seems to have tried them or maybe did not want to answer my question. Even here, the music choice is barely acceptable. And the majority of them are on SACD, not even 24/96.

I understand from Jo that if one is to buy the Bryston, that AV Designs is able to supply quite a lot of titles in the required format. Can anyone give me an idea of what kind of music is available there ?

Well, I am sorry if you think I am upset and I felt you 'challenged' me but I am not. Just that your wordings were like mine, guilty of being dramatic, i.e. : 'empty your glass' !! So I thought 'wow, maybe I am on to something here'. I would like to get back to digital and satisfy the missing music that I would love to get. But if possible I would like it to be better than what CD can currently offer. Because those 'good implementations' of CD is at the moment, in the 'HOLY SHIT !' price range (meaning, way beyond my ability to buy).

Frankly, I am not promoting HiRez but since you ask me quite a number of time on the source.
And I do not care if you listen to yr nite table radio of whatever.

The point is you keep on harping on issues like "not even 24/96 or from SACD". That shows yr understanding on this matter.

Been there and done that......so many years ago????HiRez???If not..done what???Buy chesky CD? that is 16/44.1 lah
Music not good?? sorry you have to complain to David Chesky on that.

You throw me so many classical big names, I show you where to get it. Now you say you detest those provider. Haha, you always win. It is in one's nature.

It is true fact that myself like to listen to Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Dan Fogelberg, Neil Diamond, Carole King, James Taylor, Fleetwood Mac and all those contemp artist. And believe me, I have alot. The Highrez is the bonus.

BTW, where do you think Bryston got their source from???Haha

I think this discussion has gone senseless. We got to stop. I have to go make a living. You have a good life.
Chao.

VS126,

Don't worry i wont quote you. I appreciate your effort educating and parting knowledge on computer audio in this forum. I intend to go down this road.


Mugenfoo,

You misunderstood my message. Tt and lp are not my cup of tea.

Quoting Vs126,

Think of all the dust and hard work setting it up and playing. Cannot be couch potato and be the master of command. With vinyl, you are the slave.
With computer audio, you are the master.


When i say I will not buy tt and lps, pls don't assume i discriminate lp formats.
Thanks

Wong,
Yes i thought you did sound a bit annoyed when i suggested earlier you download a track of the same song in 16/44.1 and 24/96 and compare it yourself. My suggestion was also not meant to "challenge" you, but more of an exchange of thoughts and knowledge ...... a kind of open debate to try to get closer to the truth. An of course in any debate, we sometimes have to disagree with each other.

In your later posting, it becomes clearer that one of the bigger reason for your resistance is that you find it hard to get the music you want in hirez. At the same time, you are also very skeptical about whether there is any REAL sonic improvements (as opposed to just imagined/perceived improvements) moving up hirez.

Carz, yes you are right. And no, I wasn't annoyed or thought that you were challenging me. Far from it, I was rather enlightened by your 'challenge' if you might call that. That 'challenge' prompted me to go search the net (using google only though) for available hi-res music to purchase. I could only find that single site as the real reliable source. Then as I was trying very hard to explain, I want the performance, not only the music. Meaning if Beethoven, I would prefer Karajan or George Solti as the conductor. I.e. I have been through where I would just settle for Beethoven Symphony No. 5 on (e.g.) Telarc because it was the only Beethoven Symphon No. 5 I could buy on LP. My search led me to 2L which is a site who are trying very hard to promote hi-res music. I downloaded a few music but doesn't have the best DAC to try them, only some computer software implementation on TiVX which sounded clean but that was it (didn't really expected more of course).

Still that single 'challenge' if you want to call it that, made me think. One was the advent of hi-res music shows promise but yet I am seeing a lot of hype. This brings back nasty memories of the days of old, I have explained it : 2X oversampling, 4X, 8X, 64X bitstream, this and that.

Then after I browsed through the music download website I found, initially I was elated because there were quite a lot of music I like available. Then I found they were mainly on SACD. Fair enough, SACD is still quite good. It gave me hope because one of the biggest disadvantage of SACD I was told is lack of music available. But I realized there are still literally millions of titles available on CD that I have given up hope of getting on LP. Could they be available in high-res digital ? That is one of my primary concern now.

I think digital when properly implemented can give real improvement over CD. Heck, even CD when properly implemented can give very good sound as that Studer DAT deck taught me. Just the price and my limited financial ability (i.e. can I afford to dump tons of my on two sources ?) One intriguing question is whether a hi-res music source on a less than state of the art implementation (i.e. the DSP, op-amp, etc) can give as good sound as a CD implementation with a 'HOLY SHIT!!' price tag. My friend's experimentation with the Zodiac Antelope DAC was at one time, keenly followed by me and I even had an arrangement to visit him to experience it though sadly it didn't happen due to mitigating circumstances.

So when VS126 told me to 'empty your glass', I was elated. But my key question still remains. He says he had Dire Straits. I ask first, in what hi-res format ? SACD ? 24/96 ? 24/192 ? Or some other format ? Secondly, I ask where I can buy. That is even before I start to become annoying and ask 'WHICH album of Dire Straits are available?'.

With such a jaded view of broken promises, I am now taking the 'sneaky' approach of letting you younger 'more adventurous' guys take the plunge, then tell/teach me some of the more important things, like where to buy and what is available, before I decide to go spend time on the whole thing. But in return, I want to play the devil's advocate and tell you all the nasty things I have experienced.

Hopefully this is more clear to you and others who might still be following this.

Allow me to explain with an example.

Following VS126's 'challenges', I actually googled 'Dire Straits music high resolution digital'. The top hit was about a 180gram double LP reissue which was also available as a 24/96 rip. Hmmm.... why would I want the rip ? The 2nd hit is here ->
http://ektorasclub.blogspot.com/2009/01/dire-straits-mark-knopfler-best-of.html

I have this on LP and it was so-so. But wow, the website says 'High Fidelity', remastered, etc. So I was elated. The material says 'SHM-CD'. That is something unfamiliar to me. So I googled SHM-CD and discovered it is still regular CD but produced in a special way to allow the CD transport to read the disc better.

THIS is what I mean la. What exactly is hi-res now ? Is it SHM-CD, SACD, 24/96 and everything NOT basic CD in redbook CD format ? In my years, I have quite a fill of 'audiophile' CDs, which I am sure many are familiar with (high priced 'gold' CDs for one) so I would really love/expect something better.

WongKN, IMHO only People who love old time music will know your meaning. Of course 24bit file will better than 16 bit file. Problem is quality of old master tape is drop, I don't think even 24 /96 format can help to improve the quality as good as First press LP. But new recording is another story, the master tape still good, hi rez file can get benefit from it.

Any one want to enjoy best old recording should get first press LP. For New recording, 24 /96 format will be another good choice.

kkthen, thanks for your explanation. I fully understand this. But then again, some re-issue of older materials, like the Classic Records re-issue of Living Stereo classical music series were fantastic sound. Some reviewers claims it still loses out to the actual original RCA Living Stereo early pressing LPs but I thought those comments are just 'lebih' only because not everyone can get those. So, in absolute quality, the Classic records re-issues and the Living Presence re-issues were extremely good sound. But they were available only on LPs and regular CDs only. So there is still a lot of very good master tapes available from the big labels. Just have to force them, somehow, to release their precious loads in high-res format.

As for newer music, this is where my biggest hope lies. New releases, I really do hope ALL the labels sees fit to release in HD. But are they doing this, or at the moment, only a few and the rest all the smaller independent labels. THAT is the key question I am unable to get a firm conclusive answer to all this while. So, telling me to 'empty my glass' is something I fully accept. But I also hope after emptying it, people can help me 'fill it up' again.

At the minimum, I was actually hoping Tsai Chin or that cissy fellow 'Fei Yue Ching' might be avalable in SACD or HDCD. But are they. The Tsai Chin LPs are certainly fantastic and they are still releasing new LPs occasionally but only on CDs as an alternative. Or am I wrong here ?

bassraptor (Thu 16 Dec 2010, 12:13 pm) wrote:Wonder if they'll
release the Beatles collection on LP? Or did they do it while I was
sleeping.

You can enjoy good music and a good system, too. Takes
up time, but if you love both enough, why not? My appreciation of good
music is further heightened when I hear it on a good system. Well,
depending on the recording ... if it isn't so good, I rip it to my iPod
for in-car enjoyment. 320kbps MP3 files don't sound too bad at all, i
tell you.

i'm still waiting for The Beatles HiRez LP to be offered. The LP should be made of some space age material that is harder than diamond, yet the tracks are embedded with nanotechnology such that they are self-calibrating to ameliorate IGD no matter what the pivoting tonearm's geometry and also are compliant to whatever tracking force due to its super duper ultra high-tech material that will always "wrap around" the stylus for perfect tracking each and everytime. Oh, and don't forget the special "oleophobic" surface coating such that dirt, oil and grime and what nots will always spin off and never get caught inside the grooves.


Opps... i just remembered that I actually bought the Beatles "Stereo Box Set" recently... Darn , guess i'll have to stick to CD for now.

chang (Thu 16 Dec 2010, 1:42 pm) wrote:
Mugenfoo,

You misunderstood my message. Tt and lp are not my cup of tea.

no worries ... I'm just goofing around here only.

WongKN (Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:38 pm) wrote: ...(snip).. But I -am- still skeptical of whether high-res music will really move or not. But as you probably have seen, the most exciting development yet to me, is Jo's enthusiasm of the Bryston. ...(snipe)...

I understand from Jo that if one is to buy the Bryston, that AV Designs is able to supply quite a lot of titles in the required format. Can anyone give me an idea of what kind of music is available there ?

Hi WongKN, right before I listened to Bryston, I was like you, skeptical about this high-res music and believe it is all hype. After few chances of listening to high-res music system, I packed this and prefer to 'sit on the fence' because I was not blown away by it. The cost of this high-res music player system are not helping as they are simply too costly.

Correction Wong KN, I am not saying that buying Bryston combo would comes with all the high-res music files; we all have to buy them from the high-res music download sites. But AV Designs has quite a good range of hi-res music files which you could audition, and we can decided if the title is good for purchase. Not all hi-res music are good as it is like all CD, LP, depends on the recording, mixing and mastering art.

Jo Ki

Right Jo, I do understand that part. As you explained, AV Designs has the titles, around 2,000 if I remember correctly. Of course they will not give them away for free. So it is important to take a look at what are in those 2000 titles as we discussed the other night. One of the motivations to drop by to see Jeff.

The main thing now is that there seems to be more choices on SACD, especially the (I think) newer hybrid-SACDs. Even Tahra re-issued my much asked about Furtwangler Beethoven Symphony No. 9, the 1954 one at Lucerne, mastered mono from the Swiss radio tapes. Other than that, I couldn't find any other Furtwangler Beethoven Symphony 9 except on CD. None so far on 24/96 and above. Really, the amount of choices is huge for CD, seems to be getting better for SACD, small on 24/96 and tiny on 24/192. At least based on what I can get from the internet. This is why I was asking if people consider SACD, especially those new hybrid-SACDs as 'high-res' or not. I know of many who sits on both sides of the fence.

Why am I harping on Furtwangler Beethoven. I am sorry but a classical music fan is like that. Have a chat with your cousin about the merits of different performers of any selected classical music piece and you will understand. I could have been talking the same with Karajan or Toscanini or Solti as well. It's just that most classical music fans are damn fussy about the performance. And many are extremely polarized about them as well. Sometimes we even agonize over the year of the performance, by same conductor and same performers on same music ! So if you think digital vs analog is bad, you should see Furtwangler vs Toscanini vs Karajan arguements !

In the end, 2,000 titles is not a lot and I think you understand what I mean. I think your own musical collection (CD + LP) have probably exceeded this number. The world heritage of music is so huge. Even if we say 2,000,000, that is still not a lot. Because there are just too many types of music around, each one according to specific individual's taste and all of them right in their own way.

I think you might remember how I explained to you that my long term plan has always been to reinstate digital back in my system, AFTER I feel they have made the cut. A lot depends on the what the industry do but as I have explained, having been following the progress for so many years, over a quarter of a century since its launch, I have grown jaded and cynical of the never ending next best thing. Unfortunately for reasons I have explained to you, I am not convinced of using computers in the playback chain. But whatever it is, it has been made painfully clear to me that certain era of music, e.g. 1990s and especially 2000s and above, they are really only available in digital. As some forumers says, music comes first.

As we chatted about the other day, the only real worry is whether the music labels destroys the music with their attempts at protecting the contents from what they feel are illegal copying and distribution (that is best left for someone else to argue about). I don't know if anyone remembers the attempts at copy-protection for CDs back in the 1990s (I remember). Again, science and thus the music labels argues that that copy bits they embedded into the music are inaudible but we consumers and reviewers keep saying 'NO'. But I remember no-one really could prove it in blind tests. Still, our wallet 'changed' the music labels' minds. I don't fancy another such scenario happening again. It's not the issue of copy-protection, it's the issue of interference with the music and sound quality.

OK, enough for tonight.

While you guys sharing, debating, commenting madly on the formats war. I was blasting my hi fi to 10:30 clock position on my volume knob; through my Cantonese "Beyond" greatest hit album under HDCD..

A lot of eletro-digital keyboard shits.. and very harsh playing at that level of loudness... But again it was great fun.. it truly brought me back to my schoold day~~

Dont forget to enjoy the music la guys~ let the formats have their own war.

I think in the end, that was the whole gist of all my posts. I want to get the music that I want so that I can enjoy the music that I like. Everything else is just circumstantial, forced onto me/us by record labels, and so forth. So I/we have no choice but to work within those constraints.

You know in laymans terms here's how I see it. And I literally mean see it as in Video.

Redbook is somewhat like DVD Video. Created when television was not yet in HD.

24/96 and beyond is like Bluray video. Created for HDTV.

Vinyl? Well, does anyone remember 35mm cine film in spools? Something like that.

There are alot of junk, badly compressed DVDs out there with mediocre video quality and played on a modern HDTV, you'll see the compression artefacts immediately. But play a decent DVD9 on a HDTV and it's actually quite watcheable and to the untrained eye, almost indistinguishable from 720P HD. Sure, compared to 1080P HD, you don't get to see Nicole Kidman's moustache on close-ups and you won't get to see Megan Fox's armpit stubble. But who in the right mind watches movies to see these details??? Ain't it all about the story being told and the drama unfolding???

There are similarly alot of crap CDs out there but play a good one through a good system and it's almost high rez if you're not listening out for the faults. You'll still tap your feet and you'll still relate to the performance as if you were in a live performance. Redbook is not that bad. It's not high rez and it's not analogue but on a decent system it's not half bad.

Listening to vinyl on the other hand can be a very ear pleasing experience and not at all unlike 35mm cine film played on the silver screen through the cine film projector. Yup, it's ocassionally scratchy, it might skip a few frames and might show up a few warped frames once in a while but it's just so pleasing and nostalgic too.

So, are we listening to the music or Tsai Chin swallowing her spit while her double bassist scratches his crotch? Are we watching movies or are we looking out for upskirt wardrobe malfunctions? You decide.

"Listening to vinyl on the other hand can be a very ear pleasing experience and not at all unlike 35mm cine film played on the silver screen through the cine film projector. Yup, it's ocassionally scratchy, it might skip a few frames and might show up a few warped frames once in a while but it's just so pleasing and nostalgic too."

Dude, we must be in different universes. Drop by my place one weekend night. For a vinyl experience, that is, not 35mm cine film! Let me play you some non-audiophile LP on a RM2.5k tt.

Oh, I prefer upskirts on DVD - can pause and slo-mo the action

Sujesh, you gotta be careful of that guy. He might want to jump into the bed with you !!

I do agree he must be in a different universe. Why would anyone want a close-up of Nicole Kidman's moustache and Megan Fox's armpit !!

Vinyl is a very matured playback system already. Naturally the basic sound quality tends to be consistently good except for really badly set-up turntable. Also, because of the understanding and technology that has already been built-up since over half a century, naturally when there are advances now, it tends to yield very impressive results. Witness the latest generation of catridges with micron-sized stylus, able to really dig deep into the record grooves and able to extract out more details by getting to track the grooves better.

Digital on the other hand, as long as one understands the basic limitations involved as well as how it relates to the human listening acquity, can deliver good results as well. It doesn't always have to be high-res, even basic CD too can give good result. But a high-res source makes the job a lot easier and gives us a lot better chance to get very good sound quality and of course a lot better sound than CD.

On top of that, digital playback by necessity rides a lot on top of computer technology. BUT computer technology is by nature a very 'dirty', i.e. artifact and interference sensitive technology. There is no coincidence they prevent you from using your handphone in the banking hall. And why they ask you to switch off your laptop during take-off or landing in a plane. The kind of interference inflicted on basic electronic equipment can be quite disconcerting.

In the end, the music is to many people the most important. No matter how good the playback system is, without being able to listen to the music one loves, then it doesn't make any sense anymore. In this sense, one of the arguements for vinyl is the huge archive of LPs that has been released over the decade. While for digital, new music is available in this medium but usually not vinyl. So after some time, one really do tend to gravitate towards the situation that it seems the best compromise to have BOTH vinyl AND digital playback in the system. Now, if only the wallet agrees.....

Bassraptor, you're funny. I like your dry British sense of humour. It's old school and very charming. Always puts a smile on my face reading your comments. WongKN too. Hey no wonder lah, you guys are the same age

Now on a separate matter, I think you guys have misread what I've wrote and have misquoted me. Have you seen 35mm or 70mm scene film on the silver screen? Surely a man of your fine vintage must have been to a Rex or Odeon or Shaw Brothers cinema in the 1960s 70s and 80s before projectors became digital.

Scene film is higher resolution than DVD I tell you. And compared to BluRay it holds it's own, film has soul. I mean film has film grain instead of digital artefacts. That's why I'm equating film to vinyl. No digital nasties but occasionally a little scratchy here and there.

But i'll stop right there. Don't want to start a film vs digital topic in a audio forum.

Hey Bassraptor. I thought you'd never ask. Yup, wanna drop by your place sometime. I hear you have a killer setup!

Bimmer, yes I know what you are talking about with regards to the film.

One of these days, if we ever have a chance to meet up, and assuming you are interested to hear of course, I don't mind explaining in detail what I have been talking about with regards to analog, digital and all these stuff. In a more relaxed mode, over a teh-tarik or milo-ais la.

I do apologiize for the over-dramatic expression in my original response to you (i.e "not even in your dreams", and so forth) but beyond my tendency for dramatic words and theatrics, the basic principles behind some of the thoughts in the industry about why vinyl has an inherent advantage and the fundamental handicap digital has to suffer with at the beginning, all of these are actually based on simple, basic principles.

We shall see how yah ?!

Hey Bro, what's with the apology lah??? Not necessary bro, being a bit of a drama king myself I totally dig. I'm having fun here! Yeah, teh tarik session some time. No, better still, hifi listening session at my place when I finally get that listening room done.

Bassraptor, RM2500 turntable??? You're talking about that Amari turntable right? Guess who did the product leaflet? No free gift for guessing right though.

Bimmerman: ha ha, yes, that's the one. Do you have a high-res photo I can used for my review? so far, i've been quite pleased with its performance ...think of what a better cartridge could do with this!

Sure Mr. Raptor, how does 4200X2800 resolution sound to you? It's amateur Photoshoppery if you don't mind but if it gets published, it would be the first time anything I did makes it to print. I had to create it from scratch because our friend could not get it from the manufacturer on time. PM me your email and you've got it!

That's the one on the brochure, right? send to bassraptor@gmail.com, tks much, bro!

Yup, the one on the promotional leaflet that debut at the last KLAV show. Sent bro! Cheers!!

bimmerman wrote:Yup, the one on the promotional leaflet that debut at the last KLAV show. Sent bro! Cheers!!

Got it, bro, tks much ... out early Jan. cheers!

bimmerman wrote:Hey Bro, what's with the apology lah??? Not necessary bro, being a bit of a drama king myself I totally dig. I'm having fun here! Yeah, teh tarik session some time. No, better still, hifi listening session at my place when I finally get that listening room done.

Ermm... sure. My only condition is that I will -never- crawl into bed with you, bassraptor or Jo as you wanted us to do recently !!

thegoodarcher wrote:

i was told there is a
GOLD version with external PSU which cost more - which i havent heard,

Today I saw it at the shop; the Zodiac Gold and the Voltikus PSU. The Voltikus alone cost SGD1100

In Malaysia, a Voltikus is also known as a high voltage rodent trap known to take down cats and puppy dogs too. Zzzzzzzapppppt!!!