Turntable or CD

what urs serious guys ?

I don't own a turntable but a CD player. However I heard the difference between the turntable and CD at Asia Sound Equipment (if I am not mistaken..its quite some time already)... at Amcorp Mall. A Rega P3 turntable and Rega Saturn CD player on test. Everything else is being the same, the turntable sounded so dynamic, huge and very wide and deep sound stage. The bass had so much more slam and totally it sounded very realistic like listening to a life music. At that moment I realised how much actually it is missing from the CDs. The test CD and LP was Petshop Boys. I am still hesitant to own a turntable due to the very limited LPs choice available now. If the recording industry turn around and start to produce all the recordings in LPs then, I would say, it is the one single best thing ever happened for music lovers.

like that say tweaking cd and turntable.
cd 1dt very good lens . including DAC , buffer . and signal correction including cable.
Turntable for me more tweaking then cd . i like tweak turntable
1st idler whell , direct drive , onter belting inner belt drive .
heavy platter , suspension and fixed . Go to mass tone arm much better improve the quality of sound from turntable .

cartridge is very important quality the singer . mm/ mc
two both different carector the sound .

and last more tweaking for me turntable is the best analog sound.

tq

sometimes also depends on the kind of music u like to listen to, if most are only avail on CD format, then it makes sense to invest in a good CD system.

If u got alot of LPs , then spend on a good turntable sure good.

If u are into tweaking, anything also can tweak, CD players, Turntables, amps, speakers, .... just about anything with a circuit board and components. Or better yet, can build your own like an electronics hobbyist.

If u only got MP3s (and u are a super duper master pirate-king)... then thats a different story

Yup... agree.
Depends on the type of songs you like.
I cannot find those albums that I want in LP format.
That's why I stick with CD till now.

car o scope wrote:Yup... agree.
I cannot find those albums that I want in LP format.
That's why I stick with CD till now.

Good!... less people I've to compete for LP's in the market.
Buy a TT first then you'll urge yourself to look and explore more music that wasn't available on CD.
THAT is what you should be doing or already done...otherwise discussions actually go nowhere.

cmboy,

Already told you that I will not compete with you for LPs lah..
Dont worry..
So, where you hunt for your LPs eh? hahahahahahaha....

I already have an old skool TT but I hardly use it.
Just put is side by side with my CD player now.
Once a while, I will play LPs only.
Many LPs that are available out there know me but I dont know them.

car o scope wrote:cmboy,
Many LPs that are available out there know me but I dont know them.

Don't know?.. just patiently listen to them one by one and try to enjoy music of a past era.. quite simple actually. Why limit yourself to only what you prefer?

Coz I dont want to end up buying something that I dont like leh...

cmboy wrote:

car o scope wrote:Yup... agree.
I cannot find those albums that I want in LP format.
That's why I stick with CD till now.

Good!... less people I've to compete for LP's in the market.
THAT is what you should be doing or already done...otherwise discussions actually go nowhere.

Wah .... so kiasu ah ?

Ah mugen,

Find one day we go look for LPs again eh? Ok bo?
Let's wait for cmboy's reply coz I asked him where he hunts for LPs.
hahahahahahahahaha....

Or maybe ask him to bring us to go hunt together.

Sorry guys..I have all I need and wanted since long ago, so I've refrained from any hunting trips. I even came back empty handed at KLAV show but with a load of cd's instead. There WERE many LP's I could have wanted but didn't bother.
I still do look out for good used CD's on more occasions too because I still have many on my want list. Doesn't mean I priortize LP format that I entirely give up digital.

Aiseh... I thought you will let me know where to hunt for good LPs since you have already refrained from those hunting trips.

As much as I have seen so far, LPs with good pressing do not come cheap.
In fact, they are more expensive than CDs on average.

Maybe I will buy one or two good LPs but not going to buy a lot.
No harm keeping one or two nice ones.

car o scope wrote:
As much as I have seen so far, LPs with good pressing do not come cheap.
In fact, they are more expensive than CDs on average.

I'm assuming your depiction of a "good pressing" are those new, sealed, and "audiophile rated" LP's retailed by many hifi shops or LP sellers. I've only got one or two and my experience with it didn't bring about much cheer. The re-issue ones I have do sound remastered, different tonality, some veiled, some compressed, not as live or vivid as the 1st issues. I'm not declaring they're downright BAD, it does have some good qualities. They're just different animals! Nevertheless, I still prefer the original album pressing from long ago, better still if they're in excellent to mint condition, which fortunately I've got many of them, purchased from long long ago. Its just my personal view and don't expect anyone to take my word for it. I've also refrained from buying those re-issues.

Yeah. You are right.
Anyway, dont care about new ka, reissues ka, remastered ka, sealed ka, audiophile grade ka and 1st issue ka as long as decent.

But... If I want to build up a collection now, I have to start almost from scratch. Just imagine the amount of investment required.
Which is why I would say that you hit the bull's eye coz it is difficult for people like me to get those things that you mentioned and possess now.

Hey, this is just my situation ya..

scratch .worry cartrige dam. if thousand cos sure nangis ..anywhere more lp u have more stylus.

hey guys what hot lp killer song? at nova hifi , music by design or rave system.

I play about 80% LPs and 20% CDs.

These days I hardly buy CDs and mostly look out for good LPs whether old ones or good reissues. The old ones also depends on where they were pressed and when too.

Hard to get good ones these days with their higher price compared to a few years ago.

right

guys, If all of you interested in Lps. Try online buying.. it is more worth than what we get the 2nd hand Lps these days. Those fellas are marking their price up at Amcorp mall. Those price can even buy the new 1 in America. Furthermore, it is US Pressing. Most of the Lps in Malaysia are Malaysia pressing. iN us, They have reissues and used LPs. The more you buy the less shipping fee will be charge.

CMboy,
I remember you like some chinese stuffs. Seapark still got some old records with good condition. It's rite opposite the old ruby cinema.

Thanks but I think I've already got what I need. I know that Ruby shop, most stuff not to my liking. Their test TT's are old, ratty and generally not good, IMHO. Their used records are really "USED!", have to sift through very carefully. Thats the trouble now... most gems and really good used stuff are GONE!..long ago. Anyone picking up this hobby now and searching for LP's all locally have to pay a high price and whatever leftovers. Sad and unfortunate phenomenon. The more people delve into this, less share for everyone.
Yes, for starters, high price to pay for a new TT, phono, LP's.. like paying for another music source and starting another collection all over again. Market forces are dictating high prices. Years ago, people were throwing away Rega and Linn or others for peanuts. Now the same but new TT's cost a bomb, even used ones. Sad but true.

Rega is super duper gila crazy cheap now .... especially with that trade-in program from that Asia Sound Equipment shop. About RM1K can get started on turntables already !

3 cheers for Asia Sound Equipment shop!

mugenfoo wrote:Rega is super duper gila crazy cheap now .... especially with that trade-in program from that Asia Sound Equipment shop. About RM1K can get started on turntables already !

3 cheers for Asia Sound Equipment shop!

hi mugen..do u buy new TT with the trade in program..?

if you're asking about the trade-in program, yes, Asia Sound will sell you a brand spanking new virgin unopened Rega TT at those ridiculously affordable prices as long as u trade in any old junker TT.

i was REALLY tempted to get that P3-24 for RM1610 and just trade in some old rusty heap of junk TT (thats why i posted to look for one in the WTB-section). But alas i didn't .... because a good friend (and also active forumer here whom i shall not name,[u know who u are] ) has given me too much poison and brainwashing to go for some better TT instead.

Mugen,

ic..thats mean we must trade in old TT to get the price for P3-24 at Rm1610 right..? How much its cost without the trade in package and its Rm1610 include the catridge..?

If u dont mind to share what TT u bought?

For my self maybe will go for Thorens 160 next week...maybe a good start for new sound in analog world..

RM2,400 will get you one of the coloured P3-24s with the TTPSU outboard power supply. A few hundred bucks more will get you the excellent Exact MM cartridge. Once set up and sited, this should get you hassle-free vinyl replay for years ...

fizi wrote:Mugen,

ic..thats mean we must trade in old TT to get the price for P3-24 at Rm1610 right..? How much its cost without the trade in package and its Rm1610 include the catridge..?

If u dont mind to share what TT u bought?

For my self maybe will go for Thorens 160 next week...maybe a good start for new sound in analog world..

i think if without trade in, must top up RM600 more.... So its like RM2200 in that region lah.

THORENS TD160, good choice.

I was also considering @Bassraptor punya ex-TT which is now sitting pretty at some hifi shop in PJ, but i just can't accept the finishing... looks too "ah beng" for my liking. Its a darn good TT mind you, but sometimes when it comes to aesthetics, its a very personal thing. Mebbe @bassraptor would care to elaborate more why he "divorced" with that TT ? hehehe.

Actually, you might wanna consider @bassraptor's ex-TT if u dun mind s/hand. The condition is immaculate and super pristine and much better than a Rega P3 or a TD160 coz its as different class altogether. @Fizi, if u wanna go take a look at it, just contact either Bassraptor or me and we can point u to the shop that has it at the moment.

Happy analog hunting.

Ha, ha, mugen, so you've been eyeing that. Yeah, it's a superbly made TT, with the excellent Rega arm but there was a point where I needed space and there were other priorities, so I sold it ... which also meant I could upgrade the cartridge on my Clearaudio Performance to the Concerto - which made me almost cry in ecstasy the first time I heard it ... . So if anyone's eyeing that ... I know, the colour may be off-putting but you get used to it, and the WAF is kinda on the high side because it looks really out there, like art decor!

Other than TT rig, the other VERY important thing in the chain is the PHONO STAGE. Your TT and cartridge can be limited in varying degrees depending on the quality of the phono stage. No doubt even the best valve phono stage will not be as low noise or fantastic accuracy compared to even the simplest opamp phono, but a well implemented valve phono is a very different beast when it comes to musicality. The nearest one can come to for valve/tube phono is to match a solid state phono to a tube buffer to get the best of both worlds. I'm really tempted to build a full tube phono stage since someone here is offering amplifier chassis for sale. Well, I'm tired of my budget phono. Getting monotonous. I'm thinking...still thinking.

mugen,
Thanks for very details explanation about rega think..

bassraptor,
Since u wanna sell ur TT why not u advertise ur TT in this
forum..advertise same like other equipment 4 sale like picture,spec and
all the details...i dont think not only me looking for the TT at this
time..will consider before im buying the Thorens..

Im in Cameron Highlands not often go to KL maybe the picture and the
details will help..I miss the opurtunity to buy MR TAK thorens 160 last
2 weeks,the worst part is not the thorens I miss the opurtunity to meet
Mr Tak..his very expirience guy,humble and willing to teach me bout TT..

Fizi, like I mentioned, it's already been sold to the dealer, so that's his headache ... ... if you have your mind sent on the Thorens, by all means get a Thorens.

ssorry overlook the statement...what model ur TT

Fizi, did you read my post properly? In case you didn't, my main tt for the past 2 years is a Clearaudio Performance. The Vyger I sold was a Timor.

bassraptor wrote:Fizi, did you read my post properly? In case you didn't, my main tt for the past 2 years is a Clearaudio Performance. The Vyger I sold was a Timor.

hehehe..hi end product leeee...dont think so got enought budget to purchase ur x TT..

mugenfoo wrote:if you're asking about the trade-in program, yes, Asia Sound will sell you a brand spanking new virgin unopened Rega TT at those ridiculously affordable prices as long as u trade in any old junker TT.

i was REALLY tempted to get that P3-24 for RM1610 and just trade in some old rusty heap of junk TT (thats why i posted to look for one in the WTB-section). But alas i didn't .... because a good friend (and also active forumer here whom i shall not name,[u know who u are] ) has given me too much poison and brainwashing to go for some better TT instead.

Wow... This is a very good deal indeed!!
Apa tunggu lagi??

Just to reiterate: The RM1,610 deal is specifically for Rega P3-24 black laminate finish (original color finish ) TURNTABLE only with AC wall wart PSU, without cartridge. Speed change is by flipping the belt at pulley.
At RM2.4k, you get any choice of P3-24 color type piano finish, w/out cartridge (add extra) and a motor controller for accurate speed 33/45 rpm at a flick of the switch and potential sonic improvement benefit.
There's also other choidce P5, P7, P9 (RM9.99k) at promo price with same trade in terms.
Their above offer price is a with trade in of any condition old TT and WHILE STOCKS LAST. When current shipment is gone, its gone, no more offer price. I think this is the cheapest in the world at the moment?..
Disclaimer: I'm NOT associated with A S Sdn.Bhd, merely clear of this promotional sales offer.

car o scope wrote:
Wow... This is a very good deal indeed!!
Apa tunggu lagi??

So you also fast fast better go get one ASAP !!

Like that ah..
I have to take antidote during my next trip to defend those poison.

OR

Leave all the plastic cards at home for my next trip up to KL.
But then again.. TT is not my priority now. You know lah..
hahahahaha...

Hahaha.. sometimes I see all your enthusiasm and cheery disposition where its all about OWNING A TT... and what brand, make TT, above anything else and ALL the rest are later headaches. Machine come first. Perhaps just like going to own a new car or MPV.

I am just helping out a friend here who has recently fell under the LP fever. Oh sorry, supposed to be LP flu virus.
Nowadays, flu virus is a very hot term.

Where to find such a GOOD friend who keeps on encouraging people to buy stuffs? hahahahahahaha...
Ooh.. I like to see people buy stuffs. Muahahahahaha

That virus is called the L1P1 virus...

mugenfoo wrote:That virus is called the L1P1 virus...

Wrong virus to meddle with! If it just happens you just can't get the rig to sing despite spending so much and frustration sets in...it'll be the worst virus that bit you. Not everyone have the luck you know.

One will get L1P1 flu virus at the stage when you are about to get a TT.
After you get the TT and then fall into the situation like cmboy said (just can't get the rig to sing despite spending so much and frustration sets in..), this is L2P2 flu virus.
I better wear N95 face mask now.

Nowadays, or should I say, just very recently the LP trend is on the way up. So many people looking for LPs already.

cmboy wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:That virus is called the L1P1 virus...

Wrong virus to meddle with! If it just happens you just can't get the rig to sing despite spending so much and frustration sets in...it'll be the worst virus that bit you. Not everyone have the luck you know.

oh yah man , just phono stages alone i had to go thru 3 different brands.

And as for the TT itself, after some super duper input and advice from the old-timers (thanks to @bsl555) at Lowyat.net and Google, finally got myself a Clearaudio alignment gauge (from a shop affectionally known as "The Poison Den") and a Shure track force gauge (from a good friend and fellow forumer "whom i shall not name") and then only the fun starts to begin in extracting decent sound out of the TT.

Similar to tuning an old weber carby on a vintage Alfa GTV.

What's the functions of the alignment gauge and track force gauge?
Last time, one uncle helped me to tune my old skool TT.
It is like doing car tyres alignment.
He said it is to ensure that the tonearm is balance.
I know nothing back then and saw lots of stars on top of my head when he was explaining.

Playing CDs will not have such activity though.

yup... like doing the alignment of all 4 of the car's wheels.

tracking force is to ensure just the right downforce is applied by the the arm to press the needle on the record.

VTA (vertical tracking angle) Determines whether the cartridge's leading edge or trailing edge is higher.

Azimuth is to determine that the needle is perfectly vertical when it lands on the record.

Then the hardest part is the fore/aft position of the cartridge aka "overhang" , and the "yaw" position of the cartridge, so that the cartridge position complies with the IEC TEMPLATE. But there are other schools of thought , like the Baerwald and Longfren methods. This is basically to get the lowest horizontal angle (or yaw angle) error across the farthest edge to the innermost edge of the LP's playing surface.

Point to note, a TT with a tangential arm when aligned properly would not have to deal with all these yaw angle errors as the needle direction will always be 90degrees perpendicular to the LP centre point.

go look at http://www.vinylengine.com and they got alot of free sheets + instructions to align Rega, Thorens, and generic TTs. Those sheets are called PROTRACTORS.


Similarities between TT alignment to car alignment: (just for fun).

Track force = suspension spring rate.
done by landing the needed on either the Shure SFG-2 , or those super precision weight machines that drug dealers use to measure 0.001 grams accuracy OK just kidding, hifi shops do sell these specialist weight machines for such a purpose. (that fellow forumer whom i shall not name recently bought one, so i took over his Shure SFG-2 gauge).

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=measureit&cat=accessories〈=en

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/DJPhonoCartridgesAndNeedles/us_pro_SFG-2_content


VTA = wheel caster
Use your own eyes to align and see if the cartridge "looks" horizontal or is the front higher, or the backside higher ?

Azimuth = wheel camber
Put a flat mirror on the Platter, land the needle on top of it, and use your own eyes to see if the reflection and the original needle when viewed head on are perfectly straight or not.

Overall alignment = A car's total wheel toe in/out and chassis thrust line.
Either use the FOC protractors from vinyl engine, or get a aligner gauge like the Clearaudio or Pro-ject ones.

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=cat&cat=accessories〈=en

http://www.clearaudio.de/eng/z_iz_drehtonarmiec.html


After going thru the WHOLE ROUTINE, one appreciates that the TT concept is a highly IMPRECISE machine that is still capable of giving very good sound nevertheless.


Alignment method (in 6 easy [if u think so] steps) :

Step 0: balance your tonearm with the fitted cartridge. Most TT instruction manuals will tell you how. This isn't part of alignment but more of an initial setup phase.

Step 1: first get the postion to as close as possible to the ideal position according to the aligner gauge or Protactors. I would call this the first ballpark setting for now.

Step 2: Then Do the VTA. This will throw what u did in step 1 off but not by much. Not all tonearms allow VTA adjustment , so if cannot adjust, lagi senang.. just ignore it

Step 3: Redo step 1

Step 4: Check and adjust Azimuth. This wont throw off VTA, but will throw off step 1,

Step 5: Redo step 1 again.

Step 6: Then lastly, use the Trackforce gauge & play with the counterweights and get desired tracking force based on cartridge spec sheets.


Any old timer TT gurus who know of a better way, please do share ! The above is my own and its a real pain in the A-hole to do. But thankfully, once done, it should maintain the same unless changing components, dismantling/relocating the TT or an earthquake comes to Bolehland.

Not entirely right.
Step 2 could be Step 1
Step 6 should be step 2. Furthermore, ANTISKATE (if any) must be set at ZERO during any alignment and adjusted back to proper setting when all finished.
For any Rega, the supplied alignment protractor is just fine for most purpose and intent. Its straightforward to set the right cartridge overhang. One point and least fussy that anyone can do with it.

Oh yah .... i forgot about Anti skate .... pai seh pai seh ...

@cmboy, do share your step 1-5 or 6 or 7 , so we can all learn from it also.
And what if its not a Rega ?


Step 2 (VTA) should not be done last as it might throw off the track force depending on the droop of the tonearm from perfect horizontal. Since the tonearm pivots on an arc, the variance in track force would be the cosine angle of the droop. And if the VTA is changed (usually by shim'ing the tonearm mountpoints), the droop will change.

I'd prefer to do the trackforce last as it doesn't (shouldn't) throw off the rest (unless the minuscule grams can cause something to flex )

Should request you guys to film the whole process and post the video here.
So much easier to understand..
Oh.. I am so greedy... hahahahahahaha...

How about moogen hold a hands on course.. I buy drinks ok?..
I oso wanna learn lah..

Sure! We can do it on car'o'scope's new TT when he buys one!

Hahahahahaha!