Hi End vs Entry Level

To all hifi kaki's...

Dont be bother either our equipment is mini compo ---> entry level ---> medium ---> hi end
The main purpose is only for enjoying music...lets fix the budget between our range and dont over for it..

The Character...

Hi ends ---> there is more higher ends
Medium ---> dont push to hard until needs to increase debt
Mini or Entry Level ---> enjoy the music

--

Maybe rephrasing the above a bit just for the fun of it, no need to shoot me la............

To some audiophiles this is seemingly the case...........


Hi-end : You can never go wrong la......have to get there
Mid end(Medium):You are almost there la.....just enjoy the music la...
Mini/Entry level :Look here,be happy with what u have now! Hah,hah

One just needs to enjoy at one's own level, the level either by choice or force (don't want to spend so much or cannot spend so much). I personally think it is no shame if we can't afford that FM Acoustics or Soulution amp. After all, not everyone is a Bill Gates right ? On the other hand, also DO NOT put down those who can and are enjoying the high end. Often I see the statement made that one's system is not high end. Then followed by "It's because I value the music more than just listening to hifi". Is that a factual statement or is it as the english says 'sour grapes' ? Recognize that as the equipment goes higher end, the sound becomes more balanced and more realistic. And for many, a reaslistic sound leads to better music enjoyment. So it is important to appreciate and enjoy whatever we have but do not be jealous of those who have better systems until we want to put them down. Remember that things goes around so we might well find ourselves with our foot in our mouth is we make too many sarcastic comments.

I know of people who simply can't listen to low end/ budget systems. My friend told me he knew a few too. Apparently the music "can't get into their ears"........."beh tahan liao"!!! In life this sort of things not uncommon. This friend told me of an incident I cannot forget(still laughing over it). He has a relative who sent his mother over to visit, so being the nice guy he offered to send the old lady back home instead having the relative drive all the way to and fro to fetch the old lady. The old lady declined citing she will have a headache and nausea if my friend fetch him back in his proton car, he prefer the son to come fetch him in his mercedes!!!!

Even a survey of what's the best people had heard at the past few KLIAV shows in various forums, indicated that there are very diversed opinions of what is the best sounding!!! People just can't agree on what's the best they had heard at those shows!!!! So does it come down to the fact that their hifi journeys have been different, or they have variously different listening skills and listening preferences? And it's always a 'touchy' subject/topic when 'listening skills' are being questioned! Everyone will insist 'they know how to listen'!!!

must follow your wallet, then decide to go for hi-end, low-end, med-end or no-end. in case of mine, after upgrade to better receiver i can hear something which is clearer and even tak dengar when used the entry level receiver. walaupun using the same speaker. . follow taste and bajet la. other wise along will repo your hi-fi

I don't have "golden ears" but just the other day, I played a CD on my living room setup and was quite disappointed. My living room setup is a Philips bluray player, Pioneer AV amp and Acoustic Energy satellite speakers. Seriously and with absolutely no lunsi-ness in this statement, what the living room system produced was quite unlistenable... all the so called "hifi elements" were missing/lacking - transparency, bass definition, imaging, soundstaging, resolution, naturalness etc. Because I was very familiar with how that song was capable of sounding in my audio system, I really could not enjoy the music produced by this other system.

Quite frankly, one can be quite happy and content living in ignorant bliss if one hasn't heard better, but when you have, it makes it quite difficult to accept any less. Another example - I used to think my bookshelf speakers did a good job playing the last track on the Manger CD, but only after I heard that song played through Wilson Audio Sophia speakers did I realise how that song could sound like and what I had been missing all along. The sad thing about that experience is I have not been able to enjoy that song on my system since then. I refrained from saying that I experienced what the song was "supposed" to sound like on the Sophia, but who knows if there are other systems that do an even better job. I'm very sure there are, but at the moment, I certainly could live quite happy and contented in ignorant bliss with a pair of Sophias.

It is good that it was brought up because my personal opinion is also that an owner of a suppsedly 'high end' system do NOT have the right to belittle so-called lesser systems. It is indeed the rare audiophile who is able to go straight to a Soulution-Magico system. So far, all the owners of such systems I have met DID NOT start with that system. They always started lower, in most cases MUCH lower, in many cases, with the same type of equipment that is often talked about here : Audiolab 8000A, Mission Cyrus, etc. I suppose humility is something that can be rare in this world. Those owners I have met do not belittle lesser systems in almost all cases. All of them will advice people to listen and enjoy whatever they have. The chance to experience a truly high end system should be treasured, and the experience used to make one's life richer (for the experience), not miserable because they can no longer enjoy their own system. So on one end, do not put down those who own and can appreciate high end systems. At the same time, do not belittle those who owns, by choice or by force, lesser systems. Remember the saying 'for each high mountain, there's always a higher one somewhere else'.

Till now, I still remember with fondness and nostalgia my first hifi item. Sigh, I love those red lights above the volume control... what a great amp that was capable of producing sweet music.

http://hifi4sale.forumotion.com/audio-video-equipment-for-sale-f1/nad-3020-integrated-amp-nikko-tuner-used-t7192.htm?highlight=nad+3020

IMHO, low-end, mid-end or high-end systems are purely based on individuals' preferences to set. Eg. If he assumed his RM5K system is high-end, so be it coz that's the highest end of his financial capability to own that system. It depends on individuals to differentiate it and personal tastes.

Samn, I beg to differ. I know where you're coming from, but I don't think we should call a low-end system high-end based on an individual's personal budget. It's like calling a Kancil a Ferrari because the Kancil owner can't buy a Ferrari. If we do this, and everybody considers their own system to be high-end and their car to be a Ferrari, there would be nothing better to aspire to anymore.

Personally, I know I have moved on from my entry level hifi days, but I'm certainly under no illusion that my system is any more than one or two steps up from low-end. Part of the excitement of this hobby (other than enjoying the music) is the quest to continuously improve the quality of sound from my system.

the trick is to get your system - by mixing and matching components - to sound good regardless of cost.

there are systems costing a few hundred thousand bucks that don't sound very good. and there are systems that cost RM20-30,000 that sound fantastic.

even an entry-level system costing, say, RM5k can be tweaked to sound great.

WongKN wrote: On the other hand, also DO NOT put down those who can and are enjoying the high end. Often I see the statement made that one's system is not high end. Then followed by "It's because I value the music more than just listening to hifi". Is that a factual statement or is it as the english says 'sour grapes' ?

Ditto on the above. It doesn't matter whether your system is low-end or high-end as long as you enjoy the sound of your system. Just don't condemn the higher-end equipment(that usually come with a higher price tag) labelling them as rubbish, snake oils or audio nonsense. There was once an individual who owns a home theater AV amp that had criticised all the mid to higher end equipment as in his mind there won't be any difference between these amps and his AV amp.

IMHO Audio Nirvana dont exist. You can have a high end system and after awhile you will start finding fault with it and feel itchy and find excuse to upgrade. Just like life, people are never satisfied. But on a positive note, it is actually good because if everybody is always satisfied, then we wont strive to achive our goals. Remember part of the fun is actually comparing and trying to coordinate our equipments. We always meet up and socialise and meet new friends. Thats why i still enjoy this hobby for the last 30 years inspite knowing i will never reach Audio Nirvana. No system is perfect ......No human is perfect. So guys, ENJOY THE MUSIC and you will enjoy life.

Agree with Ongaaron - People never satisfied ...

ryder wrote:

WongKN wrote: On the other hand, also DO NOT put down those who can and are enjoying the high end. Often I see the statement made that one's system is not high end. Then followed by "It's because I value the music more than just listening to hifi". Is that a factual statement or is it as the english says 'sour grapes' ?

Ditto on the above. It doesn't matter whether your system is low-end or high-end as long as you enjoy the sound of your system. Just don't condemn the higher-end equipment(that usually come with a higher price tag) labelling them as rubbish, snake oils or audio nonsense. There was once an individual who owns a home theater AV amp that had criticised all the mid to higher end equipment as in his mind there won't be any difference between these amps and his AV amp.

Hmmm... i wonder who might that be.

Well, that was not too long ago. Remember the blind test that was called off. I guess he must be enjoying his high-end system a lot these days to think that his home theater AV amp sounds like an FM Acoustics.

really enjoy all the comments....

the reason why i create this topic is because of a lots of new hifi kaki`s now days is really show off !!!! Now who ever have a money power to buy hi end set up they think they are greater then others..most of them is not to enjoying the music but more enjoying hang around at hifi shop,chit chat,comments this and that and only want to wait this moment "" hey bro now what amp u use or speaker u use?? "" once somebody start the injection already....hahahaha all the grandfather story will go on...frankly speaking if we do the blind test i dont think most of them can here the different.... Please!!Please!!Please dont ever look down on other people set up and dont talk nonsence maybe they already listen to the music before u are born

To newbies - just enjoy the music!!! dont think to much on upgrading or what ever..most of the time only end on losing a lots money but the sounding is not even upgrade 10% of the sound...the most things need to do when upgrading please do a lot reading,try with ur own set up and believe ur big EARS..

The law of diminishing returns definitely applies to hifi, but let's not kid ourselves that a properly set up and matched high-end system will not outperform a properly set up and matched mid or low end system.

fizi wrote:frankly speaking if we do the blind test i dont think most of them can here the different.... Please!!Please!!Please dont ever look down on other people set up and dont talk nonsence maybe they already listen to the music before u are born[/img]

To newbies - just enjoy the music!!! dont think to much on upgrading or what ever..most of the time only end on losing a lots money but the sounding is not even upgrade 10% of the sound...the most things need to do when upgrading please do a lot reading,try with ur own set up and believe ur big EARS..

Yes, it is unjust to belittle folks who have modest setups. On the other hand it is also foolish to criticise those who have "higher-end" setups. If one cannot hear a difference between equipment then good for him since he can attain musical enjoyment without burning the pocket. But to consider higher-priced equipment as rubbish and hifi nonsense just because one cannot discern a difference in sound between equipment may suggest a situation of sour grapes as mentioned earlier because there are others who can.

I believe the crux of the discussion here is to have respect for each other. What we perceive as good sound may not be the case with others who have higher expectations. In my experience, in order to enjoy good sound and music the gears always play a part. Sometimes it is inevitable for someone to continue with his upgrade path if the system doesn't sound good to the him. The goal to musical nirvana is not impossible to achieve but can be elusive for a few minority, well, with the exception of folks who believe that all amps and equipment sound the same. :-)

High End + Mid Range + Low End = $$ spent + Music to the ears.

So be it, individual taste and don't look down on any "end" . It's a matter of individuals pocket depth, willingness to invest and preference.

Enjoyt the music lahhhh......from which ever "end" its being played.

cheers

wingman wrote: = $$ spent + Music to the ears.

ArgHHhh!!! This one NO END leh!

and also this:

From my experience, it is always when ego gets into the picture that conflicts and ill-feelings occurs. The guilty party can be from any side : the 'high-end' owner, the 'low-end' owner, perhaps the dealer, or friends of the 'victim', and so forth.

Perhaps (and one must have a very open mind to accept this) it could also be whether the person is able to hear the improvement - does he notice the improvements ? What about the expectations, requirements, dare I say "standard" of the listener ? Does he expect a very high standard of sound ? Perhaps the way one appreciates or listens to music can come into play as well.

Take for e.g. the case of a famous song, sung by the original singer and then sung by a 'cover version' singer (i.e. perhaps those who sings for karaoke videos). Both of them will be able to sing the words properly and follow the tune. What sets the original singer apart from say a jazz singer versus a normal singer ? What sets Celine Dion apart from a '??? Idol' winner who sings the same song ?

When one takes a music exam for e.g., what gets the student a 'just pass' mark versus an 'merit' or 'pass with distinction' mark ? This is the INTERPRETATION of the music, of the song. The best singers sings a song with great emotion. He or she injects a sense of rythm and timing into the song, how various parts of the song is emphasized, the subtle stopping and starting of different words according to the message or emotion inherent in the song, the proper use of 'rest' (in music, the timing of the 'rests', sorry I forgot the exact musical term, is as important as the notes themselves). What about the decay of a note ? If you attend a classical music concert, why do the drum player stop a drum note with his hand ? This is according to the 'order' of the composer. I.e. the drummer must not let the note 'overrun'. It may sound good to hear the bass drum note slowly decaying away but the original classical music score may call for it to only last 1 bar, not several bars.

In my experience (limited one I would admit), the difference between high-end systems and lower-end ones is their ability to convey these naunces and finer details of the music reproduction - the emotion from the singer, the timing of the music, the musical rests versus the notes, and so forth.

Is it important to you ? In my experience, it is a double edged sword.

If you value it and persue it, if your system is able to reproduce part or all of them, you really do enjoy the music more. But your wallet really suffers.

If you don't, you can enjoy your system at whatever level sounds great to you. And you save money.

It is not wrong. No-one has the absolute right approach. It's all down to the person.

"It's all down to the person"
Well said and I agree!

Been a B&W fan for some time now. Got a pair of 601, 604S3, and M802S3. They all sound good even though they all cost very different in the price range. IT all depends on the listener's mood and how seriously he/she wants to listen at that time. Price is a factor but there are also other factors..............

I was in Germany early this week for a test drive of the new Porsche Panamera V6 and new Cayenne (don't ask, part of my job!) ... my first time behind the wheel of a Porsche ... now I understand what High-End is ...

Panamera V6 ? ... is it a scaled down version of the Panamera Turbo ?

That explains the silence! All Burmester inside?

Yes, that's a V8, this is a V6, redesigned engine just for the Panamera and different from the Cayenne's V6 which was developed with VW. Still, after 3 hrs in it, good enough to make me feel great on the road for a lifetime ... or until an Aston Martin whizzes by ....

f8. wrote:That explains the silence! All Burmester inside?

bassraptor wrote:

f8. wrote:That explains the silence! All Burmester inside?

also...

Latest EVO mentions for car audio:
Porsche uses Burmester
Bentley uses Naim
Aston Martin uses Bang & Olufsen

Some chinese might be pantang about using Bang O system in a car though..

Oh, the sound system. Sorry, still fuzzy from lack of sleep on plane. Had the audio in the car switched off. Seemed like a waste to play any music over that beautiful growl of the 3.6L V6 ...

Trust Porsche on the acoustics of 6 cylinders.. Their legendary 911 is essentially a V6 but with 180deg bank separation.

Wondering, perhaps Proton should use Euphonic Research or diy paradise.

Well, Proton is kinda with McIntosh aren't they? Kinda because Clarion owns McIntosh and Clarions are often factory installed in Protons.

Ah yes, the original air cooled 911 and the glorious lawnmower sound it makes. I just love it! The newer water cooled engines in the newer 911s have lost it.

Oh yes you're right on Mac! Lets see Proton fit amps with transformer speaker couplings in their cars.

At the risk of going off topic, i agree. Having a water jacket around the cylinders have removed the signature air cooled boxer 6 tone.

Just as, have you noticed the BMW inline 6 sound different between the Mxx engines and the Sxx engines found on the M models? I suspect its the individual throttle bodies that give the Sxx engines its characteristic scream, whereas the Mxx engines sound burbly and creamy.

f8. wrote:Trust Porsche on the acoustics of 6 cylinders.. Their legendary 911 is essentially a V6 but with 180deg bank separation.

Wondering, perhaps Proton should use Euphonic Research or diy paradise.

Dude, if its 180deg bank, its not a V6 anymore. It's a "flat-6".
When a "V" angle becomes 180deg, its not a V anymore but a straight plane.

But anyway the ideal arrangement for 6 cylinder is and will always be a straight-6. Ask any automotive engineer (or a BMW aficionado) and they can give you a lengthy lecture why for 6 cylinders, straight is the ideal arrangement over both V6 and Flat-6.

Yup, I can go on and on about why the straight 6 is the best way to six but the Mercedes folks won't be too happy to hear it. Even the Perdana folks will jump in for the V6 defence. Well, to each his own. For me, i'll take it straight 6.

I think for front wheel drive the V6 is needed otherwise its too wide to fit it sideways in East-West. The only inline6 front wheel drive that I'm aware of is the Volvo S80 T6, buts that quite a wide car.

For RWD or longitunidal mounting, the only justification is less weight overhand over the front axle (R35 GTR is V6 unfortunately). But I'm a big fan of inline 6, inherently balanced. And thats why V12's are so special, its basically 2 inline 6 joined at the crank.

the proper team for east-west is "Transverse".

And yes, Straight-6 are balanced in their primary and secondary effects. Smoothest reciprocation with no need for any external counter-balancers.

Most modern 6-cylinders opt for V-6 mainly due to space savings and easier packaging from a manufacturer's standpoint. The block can be made shorter in both height and width-wise (for the same given displacement). But it will suffer the consequence of higher parasitic losses due to more rotational parts, and the loss of perfect reciprocation (or balance), plus the need for balancer-shafts. So V6 is an inherently not as smooth as an inline-6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance


Beemie, this is the reason why BMW soldiers on with the straight-6 whereas all other mfgs have abandoned it in favour of V6 already (Nissan, Toyota, Merc, Audi... )

But that being said, Nissan's VQ-series engine is a masterpiece of V6 achievement, in terms of refinement and specific output. GT-R's VR38DETT engine was evolved from the VQ platform.

The way the discussions go, I gather that how the engines are mounted have a profound influence on our decisions to purchase high or low end equipment. No?

well, some people like to place their hifi system in the room longitudinally, some transversely.

mugenfoo wrote:well, some people like to place their hifi system in the room longitudinally, some transversely.

it's almost like ... the Kamasutra ...

bassraptor wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:well, some people like to place their hifi system in the room longitudinally, some transversely.

it's almost like ... the Kamasutra ...

dirty ol' man !

mugenfoo wrote:the proper team for east-west is "Transverse".

And yes, Straight-6 are balanced in their primary and secondary effects. Smoothest reciprocation with no need for any external counter-balancers.

Most modern 6-cylinders opt for V-6 mainly due to space savings and easier packaging from a manufacturer's standpoint. The block can be made shorter in both height and width-wise (for the same given displacement). But it will suffer the consequence of higher parasitic losses due to more rotational parts, and the loss of perfect reciprocation (or balance), plus the need for balancer-shafts. So V6 is an inherently not as smooth as an inline-6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance


Beemie, this is the reason why BMW soldiers on with the straight-6 whereas all other mfgs have abandoned it in favour of V6 already (Nissan, Toyota, Merc, Audi... )

But that being said, Nissan's VQ-series engine is a masterpiece of V6 achievement, in terms of refinement and specific output. GT-R's VR38DETT engine was evolved from the VQ platform.

He's not only he tech savvy on hifi but cars. So my E36 3.2 Evo M3 convertible is straight six, and the salesman told me my new Range Rover supercharged is V8. Never knew by looking at them. I only know how to top up oil, coolant and windscreen washer hehe.

bassraptor wrote:
it's almost like ... the Kamasutra ...

Really?.. tried that with your MM/MC cartridge?

mugenfoo wrote:

bassraptor wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:well, some people like to place their hifi system in the room longitudinally, some transversely.

it's almost like ... the Kamasutra ...

dirty ol' man !

hey, who you calling ol' ...

cmboy wrote:

bassraptor wrote:
it's almost like ... the Kamasutra ...

Really?.. tried that with your MM/MC cartridge?

No, I prefer F ....

aiya bassraptor, this is a decent place for decent hi fi followers lah.

u just confirmed that u r a dirty ol man lah.