Which type of turntables do you prefer - direct-drive or belt-drive?

For the love analog fan ,which yours ear the best sound . compliance with same diamond. whatever urs tweak or something . which turntable urs eyes and ear urs prefer .tq

Hazy,

I think each of the system you've described has its own merits. I've owned a Lenco75 (Idler-wheel) and am now using a Rega P3 (Belt-drive). So I can only give you views on these two systems.

I think the Lenco sounded a mite better than the Rega in terms of the clean-ness of the bass for my kind of music. Mainly it was probably because of the heavy-heavy platter that the Lenco came with. The record was better isolated mebbe?

As far as I know and from experience, many reasons for better sound in TT's are due to its mass and matching arm synergy, not so much whether its belt, idler or direct drives. Better still if the TT is mechanically flawless and geometrically right.
I believe the Lenco and Garrards that have idler due to reliability reasons and were desired for continuous use with little or no maintenance. Idler wheel certainly last longer than belt and drive heavier platter mass which were mostly machined of metal alloy. I don't think belt drive was a consideration for those 2 makes at the time of design. Oh well, whatever its benefits and reliability, vinyl LP folks will benefit from that engineering now. But of course man made things don't last forever, there's still maintenance to be done and parts to replace if found defective. With Lenco L75, I think the arm is its weakest link and can go defective over the decades. I know lots of L75's were the work horses of many record shops in KL in those days.

Anyway, its entirely up to you and settle on one of the many types and brands of TT that may deliver the sound you desire. Buy and play something that please yourself first, not to impress others.

sometime people like idler wheel , sometime belting or ....
but the best set up sure be come the better sound .
many tt in the world sometime expensive give flat result . y ?

but wat i heard is roller drive (example Garrard) has better bass
belt drive ( example Thorens TD125 ) has better musicallity and dynamic
direct drive ( example Denon ) has more flat soundstage..they got different, and is quite significant..

hazy,

As cmboy has mentioned, it's not just the mechanism that turns the platter that makes a turntable sound good. There's the tone-arm to consider, the cartridge, MM/MC, and a whole bunch of other stuff, so its basically preference since all three mechanisms are viable options. The TT is only one part of the equation, alot of other stuff to consider--even ones ears!

im playing all rounder kamen , but somtime depend for song , some song suitable for the some mechanism . but whoes the good result im try push up more thousand tweak . all can be good result if u hve deep pocket. but important for me is tonearm and maching the good singer ( cart ) . example some song for me good for my mm ( v15mk v , m55e , m44-7 , adc and etc. ) some my mc good ( zxy , denon oftofon ohhh lot cart . ) all depend . that all

chear.

wabun , im try playing direct drive to but is not flat soundstage .
i have kenwood lo7 Sr arm & kantrucpank c and techincs sl1200mk 2 Sme v arm & denon 103 , the sound very nice sweet ,tight bass enought for the classical song . but my belting mirco seiki & zxy give more enjoy with alison krouss (united nation ). all depend ....

im use , my tonearm sme v , 3009 11, and 111 , rb 300 , fedelity reseach , sr , sea.....
phoo stage tubey ear 834 and jadis
step up fedelity reseach. and all sytem tubey.

enjoy ...analog live

tight bass 4u might be flat bass to me.
flat sound stage 4me might be musical 4u.
different ppl has different preference n different ear too..
but the sound difference between direct drive vs belt drive is very significant to my paper ear.
the direct drive T/T i compare here is:
Denon DP60 + original arm + SHure V15 MK3
vs
Thorens TD125 + SME3009 + SHure M97ED

Preamp: JumPan2
Power Amp: Old Mcintosh solid state & Heathkit W5M
Speaker: Tannoy Gold 15inch

So I still shallow to listen to a direct drive sound better than a belt or roller drive T/T.. mayb when grow older will encounter one kua, I dunno.. hopefully

my experince is flat coulbe flat ma , tight coulbe tight ma. but i knoe denon dp60 vs 125 . maby u must listen EMT direct drive ....is good frd . ipoh got one.im compare EMT and my kenwood L-07D

Dear hazy and wabun,

I'm totally agreed with u especially hazy's opinion.we got to see things in a whole...not just the tt itself.Everthing/part playing their own contribution.Matching is another important thing.No matter idler, belt or direct drive its still spinning 33 1/3 or 45rpm.Like hazy having all of these as he did mentioned...all good stuffs he owned.but yet he still like down to earth of expressing his opinion.that's good.And as wabun was saying the final result is ur ears not your friends or ur dealers ears.As long as u are happy with it then go for it.This is a never ending stories kind of hobby.Most important we enjoy what we have and don't compare with others and later u will go bankrupt.hhahaha.
Anyway i'm also quite long in this analog world...it almost 20 years now.I owned and listened for so many brand of tt,arm and cartridges To name a few i did owned VPI HW19MkIII, Pink Triangle with Helius Orion arm,Linn Sondek LP12 valhalla with ittok arm,Rega planar 9 with huge seperate power supply,Thorens (150,160,166 and 160super),Rega planar 3,Lenco L75 & L78.Its neough just to tell the tt, i guess i don't need to mention my bank breaking carts that i have.
My point here is that all the above set of mine have their on type of character in producing the music.All are great in their on way and i don't to condemn anyone of that.I wonder my tt mr CMBOY and Mugenfoo is using right now because he sounded like very experienced guy in giving opinion.I hope i can share some with these guys.

Last but not least......LONG LIVE VINYL

tq
Valhalla

not me man ... i'm the SKL aka talk-c0ck guy ....

people want to believe me or not .. totally up to them

Nothing much to tell, just a couple of decent fully functioning reputable TT's that suffice other than the CDP, because lots of albums or music I can't get on CD.

Believe or not depends for experince . im since analog more 20 year. and more 30 tutntable im use and sale . all carector depends urs set up , dont be confius im just to say urs perfering turntable drive u like it.
This subjective question just preown experince. .same like many production lp all subjective good recording.
Actually is what tt more u used it. and what recording company more u here it. ( stock fish , verves, emi , emimaster dog , decca , analog production ,naim , bluenote , toshiba , jvc , opus and lot more recording campany ) and also what the good mastering u like it . all depends urs ears and urs disire about up graded.

so , for me no wrong about direct drive ,.easly to used perfect picth
very good wow and flutter o.o1 like techincs sl 1200 mk 2 and sp 10 mk2 or 3 , all very heavy michince. and lot of good tt from direct drive in this earth .that y techincs the best seller in the worlds ( just adove dj )

Aslo no wrong for lenco or idler wheel . is goods too. many fan club setting up thousand k about this michine,

so enjoys urs self ( dont be shame for vinly and diamond )

days.

cmboy wrote:As far as I know and from experience, many reasons for better sound in TT's are due to its mass and matching arm synergy, not so much whether its belt, idler or direct drives. Better still if the TT is mechanically flawless and geometrically right.
I believe the Lenco and Garrards that have idler due to reliability reasons and were desired for continuous use with little or no maintenance. Idler wheel certainly last longer than belt and drive heavier platter mass which were mostly machined of metal alloy. I don't think belt drive was a consideration for those 2 makes at the time of design. Oh well, whatever its benefits and reliability, vinyl LP folks will benefit from that engineering now. But of course man made things don't last forever, there's still maintenance to be done and parts to replace if found defective. With Lenco L75, I think the arm is its weakest link and can go defective over the decades. I know lots of L75's were the work horses of many record shops in KL in those days.

Anyway, its entirely up to you and settle on one of the many types and brands of TT that may deliver the sound you desire. Buy and play something that please yourself first, not to impress others.

Wow Cmboy, you sure do know alot when it comes to vintage gear. Reading your very informative posts I can't help but wonder how you have amassed all this knowledge and experience especially since you were only probably 2 years old in 1982 when CD frenzy hit the world by storm and replaced vinyl in popularity shortly after. Was it a family member who passionately held on to his vinyls and influenced you? I cringe everytime when I recall myself in my pre-teen ignorance throwing records like frisbees. If only I could turn back time I would not have thrashed grandpa's TD124. Something I can never forgive myself for doing. Do tell...

Trust me that I once had fun dropping tubes (valves if you like to call them) from the 4th floor and watch it smash on the roadside, hope I didn't hit anyone. Bombs away.......
No, I didn't frisbee any 45's or Lp's. I still have the whole lot of them now.

I hope those were not vintage Mullards you bombed!!!

Now I can even recall the shatter on impact frisbees. Man those shellac discs were way funner than vinyl.

So, who was it CM? Was it grandpa who got you into this stuff???

As always, if we knew then what we know now!

and those tubes/valves you bombed... Ouch! I feel it since I just paid a fortune for a trio of NOS circa 1940 Telefunkens on ebay!!!

Various... IIRC, mostly Japanese radio tubes from the likes of Toshiba, Matsushita, NEC, yes some Mullards, Pope, Philips, Telefunken (from my olde Shaub Lorenz tube TV and Grundig radiogram). Dismantled to bits the Garrard record changer and see if some parts could be used as decoration in my bedroom.. naughty boy I was...
Anyway, I do have a few more boxes of various tubes dating back from the 50's, inherited. They can't be used for hifi, so I'm thinking of constructing something decorative with them. I know they can be used for many guitar amps as those tubes are unique. I've only used one type of obsolete sharp cut off pentode for my tube amp, had to rewire the pin outs and some other circuit alteration to suit. Its miles better and lower noise than the rediculously priced Mullard EF86.

Any Mazda tubes in your collection? Particularly 6v6?

Mazda ? ....
Dunno about "6V6" .. but i know of this particular model called "FD3S".

Belt driven anytime. Trusted to isolate motor vibrations from platter from el cheapos to high enders no question.
Btw me getting a new cart today. Saw a mildly used one in a local shop going for half price! Yeah! Me back fr Africa and 2k richer.

dear wan ,

nice bro congrat new cart .... enjoy listening .

diomand live..

Many people swear by belt driven machine and I use one with isolated motor, The Clearaudio Champion. From my inadequate experience with Thorens TD124Mk2 with idler wheel which associates with rumble, wow & flutter factors which is more associates with older machines but it does gives highest musicality and sweetness of the playback. Sometime specs on paper doesn't promise good sound....IMHO

Cheers Hazy.

sting wrote:Many people swear by belt driven machine and I use one with isolated motor, The Clearaudio Champion. From my inadequate experience with Thorens TD124Mk2 with idler wheel which associates with rumble, wow & flutter factors which is more associates with older machines but it does gives highest musicality and sweetness of the playback. Sometime specs on paper doesn't promise good sound....IMHO

absolutly right ... the big result your diomand ( singer ) remember td 150 and keutsu cart.....oh god not be endding

mugenfoo wrote:Mazda ? ....
Dunno about "6V6" .. but i know of this particular model called "FD3S".

Here you go Mugen, this Mazda 6V6 is made in France and it's the GT version. Very rare and expensive breed these days and it ain't rotary dude.

As for turntables, it's belt for me.

Its never my intention to deny or criticize others for some brand or type of TT they now own and enjoy it to the fullest. Everyone have their own reason selecting the TT of their choice, be it due to budget constraint or just the extraordinary pleasure of owning something rare or products of some rocket science to die for. To each his own.
For now I've settled on 2 decent belt drive TT's and thats it, no more expansion or upgrades for a long time to come. What does matter its able to last for a long time and spares are readily available just in case. Can't really deny some vintages are really great performers but getting spares may be a headache.

My rigs may be 2nd or 4th best, most of the time I don't care what others think of it. I had a Garrard 301 long ago, and sold it because I preferred something more practical and straightforward. I wasn't prepared to go great lengths to find a suitable arm and plinth for it. No regrets since then. Perhaps I'm fortunate to have some good friends nearby, with impressive rigs that makes mine a pale shadow of theirs, that if I'd want to listen to a rig that I can't afford, I'd look to them and go listen there, as long as they're pleased to have me there for a while.

Hazy,
Yeah just got me a barely used Ortofon Kontrapunkt A for less than a third of normal price. Thank you Eugine, you're a sport.
Mounting on my Rega / Systemdek 2x900 tomorrow. Belt driven of course.
Cheers

bimmerman wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:Mazda ? ....
Dunno about "6V6" .. but i know of this particular model called "FD3S".

Here you go Mugen, this Mazda 6V6 is made in France and it's the GT version. Very rare and expensive breed these days and it ain't rotary dude.

Wah ! .. got "GT" summore !! Must be super powder chun.

Yeah Mugen, put one of these in your ECU and your car will drive like a classic GT!

I'm mostly listening to CD these days because my vinyl setup sounds inferior to my CD player. It's a Cary CD300 with a trio of Telefunkens and crazy as it may sound, it's more analog sounding than my record player and makes my stock standard Thorens TD150MKII sound thin and digital in comparison. Well maybe i have not put in much effort with my vinyl setup lately. I've really got to work on that old TD150.

If finances allow, i'm thinking of getting the Project RPM6.1 mainly for it's minimalist but space age looks and modest asking price. It won't be the best sounding player for under RM4K but sure would make a great conversational piece and would compliment my equally weird looking minipods and Dared VP16 valve amp nicely in my 60s retro lounge.

To each his own.

This is what i'm talking about guys. I already have most of the stuff in my collection including that barcelona chair. I just need to get that Project 6.1.

Not sure about the audio synergy but for looks alone it sure does synergize. Anyway I don't think it will sound all that bad. Right?

cmboy wrote:Its never my intention to deny or criticize others for some brand or type of TT they now own and enjoy it to the fullest. Everyone have their own reason selecting the TT of their choice, be it due to budget constraint or just the extraordinary pleasure of owning something rare or products of some rocket science to die for. To each his own.
For now I've settled on 2 decent belt drive TT's and thats it, no more expansion or upgrades for a long time to come. What does matter its able to last for a long time and spares are readily available just in case. Can't really deny some vintages are really great performers but getting spares may be a headache.

My rigs may be 2nd or 4th best, most of the time I don't care what others think of it. I had a Garrard 301 long ago, and sold it because I preferred something more practical and straightforward. I wasn't prepared to go great lengths to find a suitable arm and plinth for it. No regrets since then. Perhaps I'm fortunate to have some good friends nearby, with impressive rigs that makes mine a pale shadow of theirs, that if I'd want to listen to a rig that I can't afford, I'd look to them and go listen there, as long as they're pleased to have me there for a while.

Cmboy,

I've sold my TD124MK2/SME 3012 with the same reason as you...spares and wanted straight forward approach....and settled with very much less headache Clearaudio.

cheers!

bimmerman wrote:I'm mostly listening to CD these days because my vinyl setup sounds inferior to my CD player. It's a Cary CD300 with a trio of Telefunkens and crazy as it may sound, it's more analog sounding than my record player and makes my stock standard Thorens TD150MKII sound thin and digital in comparison. Well maybe i have not put in much effort with my vinyl setup lately. I've really got to work on that old TD150.

If finances allow, i'm thinking of getting the Project RPM6.1 mainly for it's minimalist but space age looks and modest asking price. It won't be the best sounding player for under RM4K but sure would make a great conversational piece and would compliment my equally weird looking minipods and Dared VP16 valve amp nicely in my 60s retro lounge.

To each his own.

oh cmon ... your krell is waaaay better than that light-bulb amp ...

As for the TD150, lets budget 1/2 a day's effort to get it to sing. I'll fix it up good with my tools and stuff. Might need some custom job and fabrication to get the headshell to align as well. But if i could make my TD150mk2/TP13a with a Shure M75ED eat a Rega P3-24 with Bias2 for breakfast, so can yours. Maybe choose one of those friday public holidays in this month for this "Day Project".

If TD150 sound thin and digital, my old skool TT lagi tarak syiok to listen to.

car o scope wrote:If TD150 sound thin and digital, my old skool TT lagi tarak syiok to listen to.

cannot be more old school that the TD150, coz the TD150 design was even before u were born...

Come to think of it.. yes, you are right.
Anyhow, my TT is nowhere near the Thorens.

sting wrote:
I've sold my TD124MK2/SME 3012 with the same reason as you...spares and wanted straight forward approach....and settled with very much less headache Clearaudio.
cheers!

For all you know, it could be owned by a buddy and I've occasionaly played with it. Did notice some unusual DOY tweaks on it. Coincidental?, perhaps, perhaps not. AFAIK, the Thorens 124 and Garrard 301/401 mates best with a 12" arm. Anything less may be a compromise.

mugenfoo wrote:oh cmon ... your krell is waaaay better than that light-bulb amp ...

As for the TD150, lets budget 1/2 a day's effort to get it to sing. I'll fix it up good with my tools and stuff. Might need some custom job and fabrication to get the headshell to align as well. But if i could make my TD150mk2/TP13a with a Shure M75ED eat a Rega P3-24 with Bias2 for breakfast, so can yours. Maybe choose one of those friday public holidays in this month for this "Day Project".

The Krell is definately a permanent fixture to go with the Minima Amator while the "lightbulb" amp will be for the casual listening lifestyle setup in my retro lounge.

My TD150mk2/Tp13a is currently attached to a Ortofon OM30Super and it's a nice budget cartridge which tracks inner grooves very well. I've aligned it using the Stevenson protractor which gives more bias towards the inner grooves. I think the thin and digital sounding part may come from poor turntable support and mostly my budget phono amp. Gotta pump in some money for a turntable revival! But i'm blissfully in CD mode at the moment.

cmboy wrote:

sting wrote:
I've sold my TD124MK2/SME 3012 with the same reason as you...spares and wanted straight forward approach....and settled with very much less headache Clearaudio.
cheers!

For all you know, it could be owned by a buddy and I've occasionaly played with it. Did notice some unusual DOY tweaks on it. Coincidental?, perhaps, perhaps not. AFAIK, the Thorens 124 and Garrard 301/401 mates best with a 12" arm. Anything less may be a compromise.

Mine was sold to Singaporean,a returning buyer as he bought my Micheal Gyrodec mk4 at first deal. My TD124Mk2 was totally different in color..custom paint, with thick plinth sandwiched wood layers.

bimmerman wrote:

mugenfoo wrote:oh cmon ... your krell is waaaay better than that light-bulb amp ...

As for the TD150, lets budget 1/2 a day's effort to get it to sing. I'll fix it up good with my tools and stuff. Might need some custom job and fabrication to get the headshell to align as well. But if i could make my TD150mk2/TP13a with a Shure M75ED eat a Rega P3-24 with Bias2 for breakfast, so can yours. Maybe choose one of those friday public holidays in this month for this "Day Project".

The Krell is definately a permanent fixture to go with the Minima Amator while the "lightbulb" amp will be for the casual listening lifestyle setup in my retro lounge.

My TD150mk2/Tp13a is currently attached to a Ortofon OM30Super and it's a nice budget cartridge which tracks inner grooves very well. I've aligned it using the Stevenson protractor which gives more bias towards the inner grooves. I think the thin and digital sounding part may come from poor turntable support and mostly my budget phono amp. Gotta pump in some money for a turntable revival! But i'm blissfully in CD mode at the moment.

It'll be interesting if i can lug over my PiPit 1st Gen and try to partner it with your Thorens/Ortofon.

Why Stevenson ? Stevenson gives zero error at the inner extreme groove while sacrificing the rest of the playing area. The problem is that most records don't even run to the innermost grooves, so this means you're almost never going to enjoy Steven's accuracy at the innermost groove but 100% of the time, its playing at the higher error regions.

mugenfoo wrote:
It'll be interesting if i can lug over my PiPit 1st Gen and try to partner it with your Thorens/Ortofon.

Why Stevenson ? Stevenson gives zero error at the inner extreme groove while sacrificing the rest of the playing area. The problem is that most records don't even run to the innermost grooves, so this means you're almost never going to enjoy Steven's accuracy at the innermost groove but 100% of the time, its playing at the higher error regions.

It would definately be interesting!!! You might have to lug along some records as well. My wacky 60's percussion sterephonic recordings will surely drive you up the wall with it's over the top stereo panning and my Mantovani collection will put you to sleep Seriously, it's all I listen to on vinyl.

About the Stevenson, well, the argument is that the inner grooves are given priority because it's the most unforgiving region while the outer grooves are easier to track so less accuracy is required there. I've also tried the Loefgren geometry but the difference was quite minimal. Maybe the Ortofon's forgiving characteristics had something to do with it? I can recall when I was using an Audio Technica AT101, distortion was really bad on the inner grooves even with the Stevenson. Either that or I must have done something else wrong.

Hope to move out to somewhere more condusive for Hifi where I can setup a retro lounge and also a serious listening room as well. Right now it's all in my 1 bedroom studio and my wife and kid keeps tripping over my gear. Either that or i'm playing to loud or too late in the evening or they just hate my music. Ho hum...

Whah.. you 2 guys..going to havea party eh?. Mantovani..thats romantic!

Wanna make it a threesome?

Carry on and have fun..I'll take a raincheck.

Many people swear by belt driven machine and I use one with isolated motor, The Clearaudio Champion. From my inadequate experience with Thorens TD124Mk2 with idler wheel which associates with rumble, wow & flutter factors which is more associates with older machines but it does gives highest musicality and sweetness of the playback. Sometime specs on paper doesn't promise good sound....IMHO

very agree to you Sting.. specification doesnt guranteed anything..
just pleasure to the eye.. better listen with ear than see with eye when dealing with hifi stuff...

wabun wrote:

Many people swear by belt driven machine and I use one with isolated motor, The Clearaudio Champion. From my inadequate experience with Thorens TD124Mk2 with idler wheel which associates with rumble, wow & flutter factors which is more associates with older machines but it does gives highest musicality and sweetness of the playback. Sometime specs on paper doesn't promise good sound....IMHO

very agree to you Sting.. specification doesnt guranteed anything..
just pleasure to the eye.. better listen with ear than see with eye when dealing with hifi stuff...

Same Hi end is no end