Is DSD a match for analogue sound quality?

After listening to DSD tracks from Blue Coast Records for the past few days, i am now of the view that finally there is a digital format (actually DSD is not new; it is used in SACDs) that can match analogue.
Anyone with different opinions?

sflam, you are opening up another controversial thread, decades old warfare. Blue Coast Records standard CD is already a stunner comparing to any audiophile CD at any price range. A lot of it depends on quality of engineering and recording I believe. I am sure the DSD version would be even better.

However, if you were comparing digital to analogue, you really have to reduce the differences in both of the playback system in order to make this statement more acceptable; at the current affair, this is near impossible to reduce the inevitable differences format. One basic fundamental, I am sure you did not compare BCR CD against BCR analogue and listen to the same song because, as far as I know, BCR never release any analogue at all.

My BCR CD ripped to aiff, its good sound quality I could trick many that I was streaming HiRes format.

Jo

jpki,
u r right. it is a decades-old war. but it never ended.

and today, the war is starting again with more sites offering dsd downloads and more dac makers offering dsd decoding as well.

in the US, there is a big push by blue coast records, korg, 2L (from europe), playback designs, dcs, mytek digital, fostex (from japan) and i think meitner too to promote dsd as the format of the future.

Sflam,

You got such good sound from BCR DSD material. Even pitching it against vinyl.
And you are only using JRivers 17 to a NORMAL DAC.

I wld love to hear DSD material feed into DSD capable DAC like mytek, playback, DCS etc.

We live in exciting time, I am glad I ventured into CAS, selling off my CD players and turntables.

Imagine.....big jump in sound with just a firmware update instead of hardware upgrade (money...money).

As much as I once thought it could , the pre ultimate truth is that digital playback no matter which format used, resolution played back at, be it disc spinners or high res cas, unfortunately has a flaw that no one I have asked before could point out to me thus still having debates like these still active around.

Few failed to realize that music source on it's own to begin with have always been and will always be analogue to begin with, and when its original format converted to digital, a lot of the perceived sound of musical instruments in particular that we thought was the order of what the real actual sound in life, in short timbre, are way off when heard on digital playback.

Most of some of us here probably know that I was once an avid Believer and a hardcore enthusiast of digital playback doesn't matter be it using disc spinner as a source or cas but still running into my highly developed tube DAC,but the moment truth came on the day when my own curiosity to explore the world of vinyl and TT playback done in a correct manner, ( not necessarily expensive manner) banished digital playback for me for good when I compared similar records mastered and released by the very same mastering engineer for a Jazz ensemble played live and recorded back in the 70's.

Areas especially when one listens to musical instruments is just so obvious, in particular how the harmonic overtures differ for ex the saxophone and the piano, ( I played the piano for more than 15 years thus it was darn obvious) thus it got me thinking how many of us are perceived to think that digital can match analogue, nothing wrong to think that way since most will never compare a fully developed digital playback vs good vinyl playback on a back to back basis.

I did just that and grew my collection of vinyls in a very short time. Am not hammering digital playback here , for I know that to setup a good vinyl playback requires lots of time and patience as well as tools required for the duty Dan be rather expensive as well. No it's not just a matter of spinning the table and dropping the needle, no where near as convenient as cd playback or cas systems for in vinyl playback quality of the equipment and correct setup matters. I too have heard vinyl systems sounding exactly like digital playback but have never ever heard digital playing like vinyl, not even expensive gears from the masters of digital equipment, ala DCS.

The current technology provides best convenience to music playback but to music connoisseurs who demand nothing but the best as well as the absolute truth in musical playback, there is no turning back from vinyl playback where REAL analogue is not perceived analogue from digital playback.

Still there is no right or wrong here only a matter of preference.

Well said DC.

You must have spent quite a while to write those up.

Now we have Sflam on one corner and DC on the other.

Vinyls VS DSD......I hope those who haven't

heard a proper DSD playback wld not just assume or comment.

DSD playback require a proper DSD capable DAC to decode the DSD file.

So far only DCS, Playback Design and Mytek Digital hv come out with a native DSD DAC. I do not think Sflam heard a proper native DSD playback yet.

BTW most new vinyls are digitally recorded....then transferred to analogue. So analogue is not actually analogue. Only the process of playing vinyls is analogue.

Interesting time ahead. Hopefully my streamer can be firmware upgradable to DSD capable, then I am all set. Just get a mytek DAC. ( Heard there is a four months waiting ltime)

I am not so picky...or golden eared. DSD shd be more than good enough for me....me thinks.

What the hell is DSD?

Does it come with in a jewel case?

A sleeve?

Is the artwork reproduction any good?

dixchen,

i agree with u that digital music seldom gets timbres of instruments, esp acoustic ones, right.

but with the dsd samples that i heard using j river v 17 and audiogate through wyred 4 sound dac2, i heard the timbres of piano and guitar done right. bear in mind the w4s is not dsd-capable and the music players converted the dsd files into 24/96 (j river) and 24/192 (audiogate) pcm files. but it was the dsd file as master that did the trick.

people in US forums have noted that dsd master files converted even into mp3 sound different.

i presume u still hv a laptop and usb cable even though u hv gone into vinyl. simply download audiogate for free from http://www.korguser.net/audiogate/en/download.html#

then download free dsd songs from http://www.audiogate.bluecoastrecords.com/

connect the usb cable to yr tubed dac (i hope it accepts 24/192 thru usb) and play the songs.

if yr dac is only 24/96 capable thru usb, then download j river v17 from http://www.jriver.com/download.html it is free for 30 days.

then listen to the acoustic guitar, violin and acoustic piano. tell me if the timbres are right or not. i wld like to know what u think.

vs126,

u r right. i have yet to hear dsd files decoded natively.

Uh, what is DSD?

Master file before it was processed and eq and converted into analogue recording for pressing into vinyl for playing in yr Analogue Rega Rig.

jedisavant,



dsd stands for 'direct stream digital'. it was the format used in sacds. today, some sites are offering dsd downloads. so u don't need an sacd player to play dsd. i think optical media is on its way out, but that's another story.

for more info on dsd, click http://dsd-guide.com/

Digital Super Disc?

Damn Shiok Disc?

Deadly Snake Disc?

Dumb Sounding Digital?

you mean SFLAM is saying we should be playing un-mastered, un-eq'd files instead of the engineered and processed and mastered items?

how daft...

oh posting traffic jam...

so now they are mastered and EQ'd?

VS126 wrote:So far only DCS, Playback Design and Mytek Digital hv come out with a native DSD DAC. I do not think Sflam heard a proper native DSD playback yet.

Hi VS126, there are a number of off-the-shelf DSD DAC's that manufacturers can buy and install in their players. The most well known one is the Burr-Brown DSD 17xx series as used in the Cary CD306 SACD player, and (I believe) Marantz, Esoteric, and Accuphase. If we are talking about a ground up DSD design, then yes - DCS and Playback Designs but also EMM Labs.

To answer the OP's question - I have a Playback MPS-5 and I do not think it is equal or superior to vinyl. I have compared it to a number of medium and high end turntables (including a Continuum Caliburn and Kuzma Stabi XL) and turntables win every time. The Playback does have a nice natural sound, perhaps nearly as good as digital can get, but it is not in the same league as a good turntable.

wongkk,

tx for yr comment. that was actually the kind of response i wanted from forumers. the problem is in malaysia, i think there is only one audiophile with the playback designs dsd-capable dac.

i presume u played dsd files natively on the playback dac?

Hi SFLam, I haven't tried DSD files. I don't believe in CAS SACD discs only for me.

wongkk,

i haven't had the chance to hear dsd natively, but what i hv heard is dsd converted to hi-res 24/192 pcm and what i hv heard has convinced me that dsd is the closest that digital can get to analogue.

frankly i think nothing can surpass analogue because that's how sound is created in nature. everything we hear in the world is analogue. digitising analogue creates a new set of problems and distortions and better filters and algorithms can smooth things out and make digital music sound more like analogue.

i think digital music engineers have been trying to match analogue by upsampling to higher and higher frequencies and having more bits.

with dsd, i think they hv come very close to matching analogue. whether dsd has matched analogue is hugely debatable. like you said, it is perhaps as good as digital can be.

but with dsd, the timbres and decays of acoustic instruments sound remarkably lifelike.

SFLam, my understanding of digital audio is pretty basic. However - DSD can encode sounds that are beyond audible human hearing. If you read the DSD white paper, it really sounds as if the technology should be perfect. I mean - how could it be possible that a medium where you drag a diamond rock through plastic, with all sorts of distortion from the cantilever, inertia of the coil, to the tonearm, to speed stability of the platter, to unequal RIAA curves, etc etc etc produce a sound which is actually superior to hi-res digital? It's just not plausible but IMO vinyl still sounds superior.

A really high end turntable actually starts sounding more like a CD player than a cheaper turntable. They have solved more of the issues with vinyl, so you get a cleaner and steadier sound with a more anchored soundstage. I was dumbstruck when I first heard a pristine disc on a Continuum Caliburn - it sounded just like a CD player - the quietness and blackness - but definitely unCD like was the explosive dynamics and natural quality of the sound.

In short - my MPS-5 can out-resolve most turntables, can reach deeper into the recording, sounds cleaner, and sounds more grounded. As for bass - the bass on the MPS-5 is snappy and extremely tight. Bass on turntables usually sounds woolly unless you have a really really good setup.

Most turntables beat my MPS-5 when it comes to explosive dynamics and the natural sounding tonal quality. Unfortunately, I happen to believe that most of the beauty in music comes from the tone, and most of the excitement comes from the dynamics. I tend not to care so much about soundstaging (something the MPS-5 does much better than turntables).

Depending on what qualities you are looking for, DSD might be better than analog. But if you are someone who values tone and dynamics (like most audiophiles) then vinyl is still superior.

Poll added... have fun.

wongkk wrote:
I was dumbstruck when I first heard a pristine disc on a Continuum Caliburn - it sounded just like a CD player - the quietness and blackness - but definitely unCD like was the explosive dynamics and natural quality of the sound.

very interesting observation...
i hv heard audiophiles commenting that the new Linn turntables sound like a cd player.

Well, like I said there are some things CD does well, and some things that turntables do well. Black backgrounds, speed stability, cleanliness, and image focus is not really a turntable forte. You need an incredibly expensive turntable to do what even the cheapest CD player can do. On the other hand - dynamics, richness of tone, and natural sound is not something that CD players do well in. Even the most expensive CD players struggle to deliver analog sound. All depends on what you are looking for.

wong kk,

just curious...hv u ever wondered why spinning vinyl with its inherent distortions, mistracking, groove noise, clicks and pops, tone arm resonances, bearing chatter, motor noise, etc, can often sound more appealing than digital - even dsd - music files?

WongKK wrote:

VS126 wrote:So far only DCS, Playback Design and Mytek Digital hv come out with a native DSD DAC. I do not think Sflam heard a proper native DSD playback yet.

The Playback does have a nice natural sound, perhaps nearly as good as digital can get, but it is not in the same league as a good turntable.

WongKK,

If you have not tried native DSD file thru yr Playback DAC, how can you assume the outcome?







Thanks

Hi-Fi 4 Sale wrote:Poll added... have fun.

How many people heard of native DSD files being played thru DSD capable DAC?

Even our sifu SFLAM have not.

What he experienced is DSD file converted to PCM and played thru a normal DAC.

Well I must admit, I like the sounds produced by all types of media be it CD, SACD, LP and CAS PROVIDED the system is well setup and speaker positioning is well done IN a proper sound room.

We can argue till the cows come home yet if one is not taking absolute sure that the system was properly setup to begin with, I must say please keep the opinions to yourself.

All these 4 players CAN produce stunning results when setup properly in a room.

You know what, many years ago I've been to a slightly popular hi-fi writer/reviewer's home and to my shocking knowledge, his review system was actually tucked in a corner of his hall with the speakers almost FLAT to the wall. Now c'mon, you gotta be kidding me!

Once we have removed the sub-standard mentality per the above, then we can start talking more into sound quality and then one may consider more of the user interface.

As for me, my user interface favourite lists from (most convenient to least) and coincidentally (most affordable to the least)
1) CAS
2) CD/ SACD
3) LP

Talking about the experience of my least favourite interface; I mean my gosh, lately I've been to a pure LP kaki's setup in a well treated room and well placed speaker. It's just so so so much of hassle to change songs and not mentioning his old failing eyes struggling to push that needle into the correct groove. He plays 1 track from 1 album only to mute the preamp, get up, home the needle, remove the LP, put into the sleeve, get another new LP and PRESS HUMAN REPEAT button.

Playing LP reminds me of cooking the noodles the hard way. One has to make the dough and then kneading it into the raw noodle before cooking them.

Oh gawd I'm tired of typing....

VS126 if SACD isn't considered native DSD then what is?

SFLam I do have a little theory ... that the reason why vinyl sounds better is because of little distortions that make the sound more appealing. For example - the greater dynamic swings one hears on vinyl might be because of electrical overshoot when the needle physically moves. Perhaps (I am only speculating here) ... lazy loudspeaker drivers need a little bit of overshoot to kick them into sounding lifelike. After all, a microphone diaphragm weighs very little but a loudspeaker diaphragm weighs a lot.

WongKK

Perhaps you misunderstood my question.

I am comparing apples to apples.

My question is:

Whether you hv listened to a native DSD file thru yr Playback Design or other high end DSD capable DAC?

I hope you won't equate the sound of a dedicated DAC of Playback's caliber to a punny PS3 intergrated game playing switch mode power supply and noisy video card crammed into a plastic case unit outputted thru a free interconnect.

A DSD file thru Playback or DCS against yr choice of vinyl playback.

I am not saying which is better. I just want to know and I would not make judgement until I physically heard it.

VS126, my question is - what do you mean by a DSD file? Do you mean a DSD file streamed from a computer? If so, what difference is there between a DSD file streamed from a computer, and a 2.8MHz DSD file on SACD?

To clarify - I have never plugged any computer into my Playback MPS5. I do, however, have lots of native DSD SACD's. So yes I have heard DSD on my MPS5.

Hi folks, my buddy, Mark, he left his Playback Design with me for the past few months, but I have yet download a program that enable my Macbook streaming DSD file feeding its DAC that is hook up in my system. So I will not answer the poll until I have heard both LP and DSD files done right. Currently, without doing the comparison, there are just too many variance that is clouding my judgement at the moment.

Even with my Mac, I will not be able to accept using my laptop as source, this is based on what I know from my trials done on streaming HiRes files against a proper source - my Bryston BDP-1; the difference in sound quality between them is simply too great.

I will wait till Mark is back from his home country, I need his helps in ironing out more variance before a more viable comparison could be devised. He has a Continium TT, just to make the comparison more interesting.

Jo

wongkk wrote
that the reason why vinyl sounds better is because of little distortions that make the sound more appealing.

yes i agree. there is distortion in vinyl playback just as there is distortion in digital playback, but the distortion in analogue playback is more pleasant and appealing.

i hv been listening to a lot of dsd downloads from blue coast records in the past week and i hv noted that dsd sounds 'soft' compared with cd playback which sounds 'hard'.
i beiieve cd playback sounds 'hard' because of distortions caused by the brickwall filter at 20kHz found in all cd players. the distortions are also due to the pre-ringing effects caused by the dac itself and inadequate filtering.
dsd processing pushes these digital distortions way above audible frequencies. people have measured digital distortions in dsd playback from around 35kHz upwards for dsd64 files (2.8MHz) and these distortions are filtered out by sacd players from 50kHz.
i think the reduction of distortions in the audible frequencies results in the 'soft' sonic signature of dsd files which can sound analogue-like and can be appealing.

jokiarch wrote:Hi folks, my buddy, Mark, he left his Playback Design with me for the past few months, but I have yet download a program that enable my Macbook streaming DSD file feeding its DAC that is hook up in my system. So I will not answer the poll until I have heard both LP and DSD files done right. Currently, without doing the comparison, there are just too many variance that is clouding my judgement at the moment.

Even with my Mac, I will not be able to accept using my laptop as source, this is based on what I know from my trials done on streaming HiRes files against a proper source - my Bryston BDP-1; the difference in sound quality between them is simply too great.

I will wait till Mark is back from his home country, I need his helps in ironing out more variance before a more viable comparison could be devised. He has a Continium TT, just to make the comparison more interesting.

Jo

Jo, the Continuum is perhaps too ambitious a comparison, ha ha ...

I think the human aural psyche craves for distortion of the pleasant kind ... plain white rice is no fun ...

WongKK wrote:


To clarify - I have never plugged any computer into my Playback MPS5. I do, however, have lots of native DSD SACD's. So yes I have heard DSD on my MPS5.

WongKK,

I am just curious...how do you stream yr DSD file from SACD disc into your Playback Design DAC?
Unless you are using MBL SACD/CD Player which output native DSD file from SACD Disc thru HDMI to external DAC.
Maybe there is but I am not aware of other SACD Player capable of doing this. Reason being that there isn't until recently DACs which accepts DSD file.
Which SACD Player are you using?? Is it Playstation 3?
If yes, have you heard it thru yr Playback?

Or maybe OPPO player can..

VS126, I think you misunderstand. My Playback MPS-5 is a SACD player. I could use it as a DSD DAC if I wanted to, since it has DAC inputs.

OK my BAD.
Then you know better than all of us. Thanks.

We all wait for Jo to let us know how he felt about Playback's dedicated DAC from DSD file.

Very interesting debate. This interview below in a past 2003 issue of Positive Feedback is enlightening with regards to this discourse:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue9/wrightinterview.htm

Quote "...What was the best? A unanimous decision. The Ampex won—but the brand new technology of DSD was only a few percent behind. It went down from there depending on their technical resolution to CD level, which was basically unlistenable in comparison. The point is—and this is why I think DSD is the most beautiful thing—that while the master tape on the Ampex was better, a copy off of that master tape would be worse, at least 10% down from the master. And no one at home can buy an analog product that is better thsn 4th or 5th generation with the attendant noise and loss of information, the whole thing. But DSD should be able to reach your home without any loss!..." Unquote

Just sharing a few thoughts..

bassraptor wrote:

Jo, the Continuum is perhaps too ambitious a comparison, ha ha ...

I think the human aural psyche craves for distortion of the pleasant kind ... plain white rice is no fun ...

BR, I agree! Continium is definitely too ambitious in this case, especially Mark's TT set-up!! Since this name is brought up, I thought I might as well pitch his TT against "his" Playback Design and see which one ..CRY! However, I have faith that CAS/DSD, if done right, could be like what SFLam raised here, DSD can match analogue. We shall wait and see.

OTOH, Plain Rice does allow wonderful dishes like curry chicken, mixed veg, kambing rendang to infiltrate through our taste buds in their truest forms.. ha..ha...

But agree that if just plain rice, yes, no fun!

Any sense in doing an analogue vs Dungeons&Dragons comparison?

today, i activated my turntable again after many weeks of listening solely to dsd files.

sadly, it is not a Continuum; it is much-modded rega planar 3 with rb250 tonearm and benz glider mc cartridge. modest, but sounds very good.

i cannot do an apple to apple comparison because it is not possible to get an LP and a dsd version of the same song by the same artiste from the same master tape.

so i chose an lp that featured acoustic guitar, other instruments and vocals - ry cooder's paradise and lunch - and tried to compare that with a dsd file of keith greeninger and dayan kai's bid you goodnight which featured acoustic guitars and vocals.

i can confirm wongkk's observation that in terms of "explosive dynamics" vinyl wins.

So you're saying that DSD files don't cover a particularly wide range of music?

jedisavant,

dsd files cover an extremely wide range of frequencies including, of course, the audible frequencies of 20Hz to 20kHz.

as for "explosive dynamics" dsd sounds a bit 'softer' and 'not so explosive'. this has nothing to do with frequency range.

Hello, what I wrote was in response to your statement that couldn't find LPs and DSD files from the same mastering... Therefore, my question was directed whether a range of music would be available on DSD or not....

MUSIC.... NOT frequency range.... I think people forget about the music and focus so much on gear and bits n bobs....

jedisavant,

sorry i misunderstood yr post.

dsd files have been used by recording studios for the past maybe 20 years. so almost all songs recorded during that period would be kept in the archives as dsd files.

however, these were converted to pcm files and released as CDs.

some titles were released as SACDs (which contain DSD files). for the list of SACDs released, plse click http://www.sa-cd.net/home

most of the sacds released are classical stuff. but there are some pop/rock titles. click http://www.sa-cd.net/titles and search under 'top library' and pop/rock genre.

of late, some websites are offering dsd downloads. the dsd files i have been listening to are mostly from blue coast records http://www.bluecoastrecords.com/ and they deal with not so well known artistes/bands and mostly acoustic music.

other websites offer downloads of classical music dsd files.

My friend - Mark - is back from Liverpool, he came round and set-up my Macbook to work with his Playback Design to stream 384KHz music files last night.

Initial comparison between 192 and 483 of the same piece from 2L, I must say that the sound of DSD, especially the tones, nuances including those textural timbre are superior, clearly perceived. I cannot say that it is better than the best analogue system I have heard before. But I would dare say that it takes hell of a good set-up yet a lot more expensive analogue system to sound better than this. For one area that analogue could not achieve, at any price range, is the pitch dark, absolutely black(!) background of digital system.

After using Bryston BDP-1 & BDA-1, I can already detect those analogue distortions associated to vinyl medium that tends to "hide" very well within the analogue music signals. I can hear them now but not before and eventhough, together, they form such a nicely blended cocktail of the same kind.

DSD playback streamed from my Macbook, a method which I would not subscribe to normally, gives a very convincing performance! I cannot imagine how good it would be if a proper digital player is used in doing this...

The lacks in dynamic in rise and fall, or dynamic contrast & extremes in digital medium that was mentioned here before, is not found in my system. In fact, I perceived better dynamism from my digital playback system as compare to my analogue system; but of course, I have only LP12 with Hercules power supply, Ittok arm + Koetsu Rosewood Signature cartridge and Pipit Reference phono, which costs 50% more than my BDP-1+BDA-1. However, I must admit that my most satisfying musical experience todate comes from listening to analogue system, but such level of system comes far too rarely! And at more than 20X the costs of my digital system.

The download software in my Macbook is temporary, it will remain valid until 9th April 2012. The DSD files in my other digital system, which mostly belong to Mark Lorenson, costs as much as my analogue system, remains the best sounding of the 3, by clear convincing margin!

IMHO, digital music has a bright future!

Jo Ki

Hi Jo Ki, I don't think digital has a bright future at all The best format is DSD, and DSD has two fatal flaws. The main one is that it is still not as good as vinyl. WHY is it that after two decades of digital, they still can not deliver sound quality as good as what people were enjoying in the 1960's?

The other flaw is that it is a doomed format - market take-up is very small, and we have idiot engineers trying to tell everyone that hi-res is a waste of time. In other words, the engineering community are moving in the opposite direction to what we want.

The future of digital is quick sound bites, sold through iTunes or Amazon downloads, compressed, clipped, lo-res, and rubbish. Why are we headed this way? Because audio engineers are a bunch arrogant fools who think that if it measures perfect, it is perfect. They have forgotten how to listen.

The engineers are usually business driven one way or another. And the mass market of digital music still belongs to the mobile generation on the move ie ipod and mp3 generation. Until digital hi res becomes relatively cheap and affordable to the digital commoners, it will still just be the chosen format by only selective people. Cheap here not just referring to the DSD files, but the gear to play them.

WongKK wrote:Hi Jo Ki, I don't think digital has a bright future at all The best format is DSD, and DSD has two fatal flaws. The main one is that it is still not as good as vinyl. WHY is it that after two decades of digital, they still can not deliver sound quality as good as what people were enjoying in the 1960's?

The other flaw is that it is a doomed format - market take-up is very small, and we have idiot engineers trying to tell everyone that hi-res is a waste of time. In other words, the engineering community are moving in the opposite direction to what we want.

.

Thanks Jo, for the indepth on DSD.

DSD is just in it's infancy(with new media streamer and firmware....) there must be something different from an intergrated SACD player).
Why after two decades, digital still trail behind analogue is because of Dollars & Cents.
The Big Wigs only looks at money and cld not care much about SQ.
After all, how much money can be generated from audiophiles?
Think about it.

Actually VS126, up to the early 1980's the engineering and audiophile community were more or less in step. The consumers wanted more quality, and the engineering establishment tried to deliver it. After the introduction of CD, the engineers allowed themselves to be seduced by the "perfect sound forever" mantra and laughed at audiophiles who said that there was something wrong with CD. For years they closed their ears and ignored audiophiles. Why should they listen? CD sales were going through the roof.

Eventually they did find out that there was something wrong with CD. Something that ANYBODY with an open mind and access to a turntable and CD player would know, but it took these "luminaries" at least a decade to even acknowledge the fact.

VS126, my point is that digital has a very dim future. You have only confirmed it. I am not sure what you think you are arguing about if you say that the big corporations only care about money. OF COURSE I AGREE WITH YOU! That's why digital is going to go down the drain!

WongKK wrote:Hi Jo Ki, I don't think digital has a bright future at all The best format is DSD, and DSD has two fatal flaws. The main one is that it is still not as good as vinyl. WHY is it that after two decades of digital, they still can not deliver sound quality as good as what people were enjoying in the 1960's?

The other flaw is that it is a doomed format - market take-up is very small, and we have idiot engineers trying to tell everyone that hi-res is a waste of time. In other words, the engineering community are moving in the opposite direction to what we want.

The future of digital is quick sound bites, sold through iTunes or Amazon downloads, compressed, clipped, lo-res, and rubbish. Why are we headed this way? Because audio engineers are a bunch arrogant fools who think that if it measures perfect, it is perfect. They have forgotten how to listen.

I agree with you absolutely WongKK; there is lack of consensus among everybody involved in the music industry that the recording engineer, the record company and those engineers who design our audio equipment, and to some extend, the musicians, do not agree to each other. A lot of it is down to their differences in their interests in each trades.

The music industry today is quite different as compared to those days in 60s, which have less options and neither there was as much freedom in post recording manipulation. Human are such that we tends to make a mess of things if we were given the choice. We are not very good in keeping it straight and do the right thing most of the time.

Perhaps digital music can still be bright?! There is no chance for us in going back to the era where analogue tape is used, and may be we could get it more right after many fatal mistakes. I don't know. OTOH, the digital format can only become better.

Jo Ki

wongkk,

i am not as pessimistic as u r.
yes, the majority of downloads are mp3 files and these are bad sounding stripped-bare songs.
yes, only a handful of audiophiles care about sound quality and pay good money for top-end dacs and hi-res files.
but that has always been the situation in the hi-fi business.
even in the days of vinyl, the majority owned cheap turntables and cheap cartridges and played cheap LPs. only a few owned linns and bought direct-cut lps.
even in the days of cassettes, the majority owned cheap sony, pioneer, jvc, etc cassette decks and only a few owned the three-head nakamichis and tandbergs and revox and used costly top-quality cassette tapes.
my view is that people these days start off with mp3 files and ipods, but some will progress to higher quality stuff and hi-res files.
what is needed is a critical mass of audiophiles to sustain the hi-fi industry.
i think the hi-fi business will die not due to low-res mp3 files, itunes and amazon downloads, but the ridiculous prices of hi-end components.
these days, hi-end means speakers that cost a hundred thousand ringgit, amps
that cost 150k and dacs that cost 50k to 100k.