Speaker to match with SET amplifier

OK ... so that makes 3 forummers (wongkn, uncle_vic, me ) here who recommend dear lamkochai to go get a better amp instead of abandoning the Harbeths ...

For those in favour of chucking the Harbeths to suit the SET amp instead:
List your votes here:
1)
2)
3)
......

uncle_vic wrote:Hi Lamkochai,

I've several friends using HL5
and HL5Super with various amps. You got to go listen for your self to
know more. My friends even have frequency responses curves measured in
their room/listening space with the harbeths.

If u are in KL and want to go listen, do pm me, can bring u go listen and have/gain your 1st hand experiences! Game?

Wouldn't it be doing thing terbalik if we were to chose a speaker to match a certain amp instead of the other way round?

OK, lets have a quick recap of selected postings:

tycham wrote:Wouldn't it be doing thing terbalik if we were to chose a speaker to match a certain amp instead of the other way round?

Terbalik is relative (which way is wrong or right? lets discuss further) . Now lets consider @lamkochai's dilemma and which would be a more "cost effective" path better hifi sound:

Current scenario:
Harbeth Super HL5, Unison Preludio KT88 amp.


Recommendations from those who ACTUALLY factually backup their recommendations: Which Is to keep the Harbeths , source for a more "capable" amp.

While that Unison Research is a handsomely crafted amp with wood panels and all, its ability to drive the harbeths truly leaves alot wanting. And it really is an expensive showpiece, and would be fine if its just for static display.

If within the given budget of RM5K+ for better matching components, it would make better sense to try a more powerful solid-state amp, than to go source for ultra-efficient speakers within this price range and expect it to deliver the quality and accuracy that the Harbeths are innately capable of. Unless of course, someone so graciously wants to sell his Tannoy Westminsters for RM5K at the FS section.

WongKN wrote:
I'll just limit my involvement to answering this question. I have extensive experience with listening to JBL horn speakers (JBL 5nnn something, forgot the number, it's 4-digits starting with 5. Drivers are 15", the whole speaker is around 4.5ft tall by 4.5ft wide). Two systems in fact, owned by very very seasoned, and quite well known people in the hifi/av circle (but 'secluded' people). But as I really know only 1 of them very well, most of my experience was with 1 person though both owns the same speaker).

Due to the large drivers, we love listening to large orchestra pieces thru the system, especially pieces like Beethoven Sym No9 or Carmina Burana (usually the Telarc version). Sometimes we put on disco-type songs like 'owner of a loney heart' and such but if non-classical, mostly just regular pop. So music choices will probably be different to yours.

Anyway, the owner was originally driving the speakers using full valve amplification, SET monobloc amps (forgot the make but very expensive). The punch and bass weight were just not there. Then the owner substituted solid-state amps for the bass drivers. That gave us back the bass and weight but because he was using very high-end solid-states (Krell KSA-80, then Krell KSA-200), we started hearing sonic differences between the high/mid and bass. The biggest problem was we were hearing grain on the highs, e.g. in the sopranos in Carmina Burana and Symp No 9. The owner kept complaining about 'yau yeh sak chu' (like something blocking the tweeter). Eventually he changed to full solid-state - just 1 amp - a pair of Krell MDA-160 monoblocks to drive the speakers and we finally found a proper sonic balance from the system. Pre was initially another valve pre but later changed to Krell pre. Turbtable was Goldmund Studio with SME-V arm and Koetsu Red catridge.

I know you said don't ask you to change speakers but to complete this story, eventually when the owner desired even higher quality, he had to change the speakers, but he went straight to Apogee Studio Grand, - Duetta sized panels pair with a subwoofer (each side) with a -pair- of 12" drivers. Now he drives them with a PAIR of Krell FBP monoblocks, i.e. FOUR amps in total (as an interesting aside, he has changed his turntable to a Goldmund Reference).

Anyway, sorry the whole experience doesn't exactly map out to your desire as both owners did changed speakers (though I am not sure what speaker the other owner has changed to).

My dealer Audio Image also sells a range of modern horn speakers. The Odeon for e.g. are horn but modern interpretation. I have heard both the No 36, No 36 special and No. 38 as well. They too needed high-end solid-state amplification to bring the best out of them. The issue is that all the horn speakers I have heard, including very briefly a pair of Klipsch (forgot the model) all needed to use regular cone drivers for the mid or mid/bass. I have not heard the Odeons driven by a mixture of valve/solid-state though.

My take from this is that you just need to experiment with different amps to see what gives the best sound quality especially since we are talking about limited budget here, something all of us has to work with. I have heard some SET amps and I am familiar with their superb midrange, but solid-states, even the super powerful ones can often deliver superb mid and high as well. Similarly some valve amps I have heard are very powerful (e.g. Jadis JA200). So I believe it is just a matter of finding am amp that matches your system the best by compromising in the areas of least importance to you and which has strengths in the area of most importance to you. I would advice NOT to limit yourself to a pre-conceived choice - i.e. MUST be SET or MUST be solid-state, etc, just listen to everything you can and then TRUST your EARS to guide you to the best choice.

Lamkochai wrote:
thank you for all the opinions given and what a hot debate within. unfortunately i still haven had any idea what to buy. i am currently using harbeth shl5. whilst the midrange is good, the bass can sound boomy at times (esp listening to some music with alot of electronics).

WongKN wrote:
Well, my dua sen is to ask you which one is more important, the speaker or the amp. Meaning: are you willing to change the speaker to match the amp, or the amp to match the speaker ? The Harbeth is a fine speaker and if you change, you might find it tough to meet the midrange standard you have grown accustomed to from the Harbeth. My personal opinion is that your amp might not be able to control the speaker totally at the moment. I have learned that even if an amp is able to drive a speaker, there is a huge difference between driving and controlling. The main problem crops up in the bass as an amp which is not able to exert good enough grip on the bass drivers for e.g., then there will be a lot of bass 'overhang', the driver simply does not stop fast enough when the music stops and this leads to bass 'boom'. Why not try with a more powerful amp ? Sorry I am not sure what amp you are currently using.

WongKN wrote:
Also, I would suggest you at least see if some of your audiophile friends might be willing to lend you a solid-state amp, powerful one lar, and test with the Harbeth. To see if the real issue with the bass boom is indeed control of the bass drivers. I am just telling you my opinion, based on experience. And as I have not actually heard your system, I cannot be sure it is the same scenario as my case with ARC CL60 trying and failing to control the Apogee Centaur Majors.

I forgot to add that I am in favour of keeping the SHL5 and change the amp. instead.

tycham wrote:I forgot to add that I am in favour of keeping the SHL5 and change the amp. instead.

OK, that makes 4 so far...

And we can all honestly say that our recommendations stem from having only the noblest of INTENT for the BENEFIT of fellow @lamkochai, as none of us here are actually trying to sell him anything for profit or personal gain. Fair statement ?

Good to see people stick on topic for this thread.

One consideration for lamkochai. Is the Unison capable of being switched into preamp mode ? Perhaps you can use it as a pre-amp with a power amp. There is a pair of Audiolab 8000M (monoblocs) for sale at quite a reasonable price. Any solid-state characteristics that may not appeal to you (at this price point) may be overcome by the Unison's quality. So you can get best of both worlds in a way.

Seriously, I have found it is very easy to get comfy and 'lost' in a soft easy going but flat and non dynamic sound. I myself was in this 'world' last time when I tried to drive the Centaur Minors with an Audiolab 8000A. I actually was comfortable with the sound because it wasn't the main system. Then luckily (or unluckily, depending on how we see it), my friends came over to visit and one of them courteously remarked "sound very flat and no power lar".....

keep harbeth...find a better ss amp to match....
is really wan the tube...have to find a match speaker for tube amp.
tube n ss really got their difrient taste n style...

this about vintage tube amp n horn/full range speaker info..
http://www.wowhififever.com/


tannoy westminster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkB5-kq6648&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84ilMCg8-uk

jm lap utopia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9pA7v3P93E&feature=related

ls3/5a wit fisher tube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk7B2VJF0HA

TAD 2040 horn speaker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvMlwOrcogc

altec horn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNOaM3j9t_E&feature=related

5way diy horn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_LBFXu6JM0&feature=related

When Legendary PreAmp met jadis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4ODn14AnDE

marantz meat 3/5a

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-zQx7n3K1k











https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPfAZ6NTLhY

I vote for keep the Sp. Since he don't have a pair of hi sensitivity Sp, go find another amp to drive. Can be tube amp or Ss.

For set setup, u need to have the Sp first then only get a pair of amp to drive.

Mugenfoo here's your vote......

mugenfoo wrote:

tycham wrote:I forgot to add that I am in favour of keeping the SHL5 and change the amp. instead.

OK, that makes 4 so far...

And we can all honestly say that our recommendations stem from having only the noblest of INTENT for the BENEFIT of fellow @lamkochai, as none of us here are actually trying to sell him anything for profit or personal gain. Fair statement ?

Fairest and honest statement so far

Keep the SHL5 for sure..

Actually i dont know whether is the sweet midrange of my amp or the tuneful mid from the harbeth is the one i prefer.

thank you all for your opinion. as for uncle vic, i will call u up to see other ppl set up with the harbeth speakers. but since so many voted to keep the harbeth, i almost make up my mind now. keep the shl5 and search a new amp.

i have 2 options now.
1) upgrade my preludio to its more powerful siblings i.e the single ended 40w 'Performance'. i am in negotiation with a sg dealer and i may need to fork out another 10k after traded in my preludio. the problem now is transportation and i havent audition the "performance" performance.. the dealer is so confident he can bring the amp across the border without being taxed by the custom but that is my another concern if i buy from them. it will be another few thousands if the item was witheld by the custom.

2) use the 10k to buy another ss amp for rock and orchestra and keep my preludio for some vocal and accustic music. i have primare i30 ( i have used a20 before and fairly satisfied with its sound), krell 300i (rumours that it may sound harsh esp to tube afficiado like me), a used pass lab int 150 in my mind. i can also buy a higher end used ss separate with 10k.

any offer for those who wish to sell their amp are welcomed.

i will be gladful if anyone can suggest a good ss amp for the harbeth. the amp must be a warm but with tight bass (not neccessary alot of bass)

Like wong kn, i was fairly satisfied with my set up when i initially bought my harbeth to replace my proac studio 125 to match with the preludio. the sound was relaxing and the timbre is excellent. this set triumph especially with vocal.

However I always feel that something is missing when i listen to orchestra, some antonio forcione track and life recording like jazz in the pawnshop. may be that's what ppl describe as flat and adynamic sound. the fatty slow bass is so disturbing that i stop listening to some of my cds. it is further confirm when i listen to other ppl set up and those set up in KLAV fair. then i only figure out its due to the amp/speaker mismatch.

if only home audition is easily available.. i wouldnt make such a stupid mistake and wasted my hard earned money.

Lamkochai, actually for 10k you have a LOT of choice so I would also advice to plan carefully with the amp upgrade/change, etc. Remember, once bitten twice shy. I sure won't want to hear you make another mistake again.

Tube, esp SET amps can be very sweet indeed. Till today I still cannot forget the sweet sound of the Audio Research SP8/D70-2 pre-power I once heard at Audio Image. So I can understand how you feel.

I was actually hoping your Preludio can be used as a preamp. Then you don't have to change but -add- a power amp. You might even be able to get best of both worlds. But alas, it seems it can't. So a change seems to be the best bet. Unfortunately I think you are most likely to get best trade-in price if you upgrade to another Unision. So perhaps that is the best way. But 10k ! YIKES !! In theory, 40watts should be enough to drive the Harbeth. But 40watts is not going to be enough to give a very 'powerful' sound.

The issue is you like to listen to orchestra which actually can be extremely demanding in power, especially large scale symphony orchestras (pieces such as Beethoven's Symp No 9). The issue you have is simply PHYSICAL LAW. To play at a certain sound level, with good enough bass, A LOT OF AIR needs to be moved (speakers do nothing more than just move air actually). The louder you want, the more air you have to move. The deeper the bass, the more air as well. Air can be very massive if it 'wants' to be. Compressed air can be used to stop a bus !!!

So the bad news is that if you want to listen to large scale music like symphony orchestras, etc, YOU NEED POWER. LOTS OF POWER. This is a PHYSICAL LAW. Don't kid yourself that a super sensitive speaker with low power can do the trick. It won't because the issue is moving the air, not the speaker. If we can miraculously move a lot of air using a very low powered amp, even with super sensitive speakers, then congratulations, we have just created free energy from nothing ! This part you need to be very clear of.

I have heard Krell KAV-300 and 400 and I certainly DON'T think they are harsh at all. Of course they are not as sweet as good valve amps. Listen with an open mind and you will be pleasantly surprised. I would suggest to NOT dismiss any choice outright before giving it a thorough listen. The most important thing is you must be honest with yourself - TRUST YOUR EARS.

For 10k, I think you can do a lot better than upgrading to another similar amp. My dua sens lar. Have you calculated how much you would get if you just let go of the Preludio ? Then add that amount to the 10k you are prepared to spend to upgrade it and you probably can gather up a not inconsiderable sum of money. You should have A LOT of choices with that amount, powerful valves, solid-states, integrated, pre-power, etc.

@lamkochai,

the Krell S-300i is actually VERY refined by today's standards. It is even so refined to the point of alienating the old-school fans of the older-generation Krells.

It is strongly recommended that u give it a try, and also if possible, bring along the Harbeths to try as well. You can audition the Krell s-300i at Hiway-Laser shop at SS2, PJ. So, this is if you find a convenient time to make a trip to PJ, Selangor that is...

that youtube clip for ls3/5a is beautiful, the rest seems.. emmhh

Brief Excerpt:

WongKN wrote:

So the bad news is that if you want to listen to large scale music like
symphony orchestras, etc, YOU NEED POWER. LOTS OF POWER. This is a PHYSICAL LAW. Don't kid yourself that a super sensitive speaker with low power can do the trick. It won't because the issue is moving the air, not the speaker. If we can miraculously move a lot of air using a very low powered amp, even with super sensitive speakers, then congratulations, we have just created free energy from nothing !

mugenfoo wrote:@lamkochai,

the Krell S-300i is actually VERY refined by today's standards. It is even so refined to the point of alienating the old-school fans of the older-generation Krells.

It is strongly recommended that u give it a try, and also if possible, bring along the Harbeths to try as well. You can audition the Krell s-300i at Hiway-Laser shop at SS2, PJ. So, this is if you find a convenient time to make a trip to PJ, Selangor that is...

I have heard of the S-300i once at the KLIAV but that's not serious audition though.
Wish to have a serious audition on it.

If ultimately the owner's preference of music is towards LARGE scale orchestra of music then in the first place this topic could have been discarded. Having the SHL 5 to do it, ok fair enough ( I am a Harbeth fan) but 8W, orchestra? ON a pair of KT 88 in Single ended mode?

I seriously thought it was a topic of SPEAKER to MATCH WITH SET...yea depends on WHAT MUSIC type you're listening with that is...

Do any of us here seriously look out for the warmth, definition of sound, placing, imaging when we're listening to a large scale orchestra say at Dewan Philharmonic? Sweetness of valves?

Not criticising anyone here but if you had wanted big scale dynamics of an orchestra, then go SS, else a pair of paralleled 845/211 big SET's....

Although 8W with a pair of Klipschhorns will still do it.... sorry but I disagree with the term used here of high sensitivity speakers with FLEA powered watts will not do dynamics. Those speakers are beyond just HIGH SENSITIVITY but then again they do cost a bomb again and they're HUGE for most of our little listening rooms here. ( well not sure of many but mine is..utterly small)

Commercially available 8 watters...not a chance.... but with a customized SET amp, even half of that figure will do it... theorically impossible in most of our minds... practically SO darn possible IF you have ever heard one...having said that , that's of course beyond a cost of 10k....a diff level altogether.

dixchen wrote:If ultimately the owner's preference of music is towards LARGE scale orchestra of music then in the first place this topic could have been discarded. Having the SHL 5 to do it, ok fair enough ( I am a Harbeth fan) but 8W, orchestra? ON a pair of KT 88 in Single ended mode?

I seriously thought it was a topic of SPEAKER to MATCH WITH SET...yea depends on WHAT MUSIC type you're listening with that is...

Do any of us here seriously look out for the warmth, definition of sound, placing, imaging when we're listening to a large scale orchestra say at Dewan Philharmonic? Sweetness of valves?

Not criticising anyone here but if you had wanted big scale dynamics of an orchestra, then go SS, else a pair of paralleled 845/211 big SET's....

Although 8W with a pair of Klipschhorns will still do it.... sorry but I disagree with the term used here of high sensitivity speakers with FLEA powered watts will not do dynamics. Those speakers are beyond just HIGH SENSITIVITY but then again they do cost a bomb again and they're HUGE for most of our little listening rooms here. ( well not sure of many but mine is..utterly small)

Commercially available 8 watters...not a chance.... but with a customized SET amp, even half of that figure will do it... theorically impossible in most of our minds... practically SO darn possible IF you have ever heard one...having said that , that's of course beyond a cost of 10k....a diff level altogether.

Yup, I heard that set up at a friend's place. Klipsch Corner driven by 8W DIY SET playing rock, orchestra, violin, piano, flute and my jaws dropped. The opening drum of "Chant" of Four Play can blow you to bits. But the set up is not cheap.

Then perhaps I may suggest you have not heard it using a big scale symphony orchestra music. It's like I said, it is a physical law. That amount of watts, no matter transferred to how sensitive a speaker will never ever move that amount of air. This is a physical law and if anyone can truly find a way to move that sheer huge amount of air using small wattage, congratulations we have just witnessed the creation of energy from nothing. Not to taruh anybody but just pointing out that there are certain limits we cannot transcent - laws of nature, physics, etc. There is a limit.

When listening to a orchestra live, a lot depends on how far away one sits. The premium seats are expensive but they give us the best sense of perspective including power. Sit further or closer and the perspective changes. This is why many reviewers talks about row J or row N and all those things when writing a review of a classical concert.

Nevertheless, this is all I am going to get involved in. It's like I said, this is my experience and others can have different opinions depending on their own experience.

One final word is that I feel this topic is very valid and in fact good because it shows that we can help forumers who might be mistaken with system matching and hopefully help him find a proper solution. Cost of course will always be a concern. So now, hopefully Lamkochai will have a much clearer idea of where and how he wants to progress from here.

WongKN wrote:Then perhaps I may suggest you have not heard it using a big scale symphony orchestra music.

WongKN,

Can enlighten me on the CD and track no. so that I can try it on my friend's system to see how it performs?

Of course we can't defy Physics. Just suppose we have a very efficient speaker that matches with a very well designed and built 8w SET, we may have a fantastic system that may seem to defy Physics.

Believe me, I think I have heard such set up. Until I listen to the track you suggested that proves otherwise, I stand corrected.

The only downside is it costs $$$$$$.

You just pick the proper symphonic orchestra pieces like Beethoven's Symphony No. 9, or Carl Orff's Carmina Burana, or Saint Saens Organ symphony, Muggorsky Pictures at an exhibition, etc. I assume you are familiar with live music, the MPO is not perfect but they are still quite good and often produces very enjoyable music. They are even capable of delivering a performance so wonderful it can actually inspire me to stand up for a standing ovation, as I found out first hand many years ago during a performance of the legendary Butterfly Lover's Concerto (here in Malaysia, we don't usually stand up when we clap). Also, listening from premium seats, worth the price if one is a classical music fan.

There are other more 'fringe' classical music I listen to but no point listing them here. For the more mainstream ones, besides the above, even Planets is quite dynamic. Or Beethoven's Symphony No 5. Note I am not even asking for 1812, many people's favourite piece for testing power, yet.

For pop, it is more difficult because we might not have a reference. Due to that sometimes, it is necessary to have the opportunity to listen to something played on a really powerful system to get an idea of what the artist might be trying to create in the first place. E.g. of the more commercial pop, Pink Floyd's the wall (another brick in the wall), or Queen's Bohemian Symphony. I was told one of my friends just bought an LP of The Wall which really demonstrates the powerful dynamics Pink Floyd was trying to create and which we will only understand after we have a chance to listen to it. I am waiting for the opportunity to visit my friend to 'open my eyes, or rather ears ! (he tends to be overseas most of the time).

Most of my music choices tends to be a bit more mainstream so I am pretty sure you can find all of the songs above.

But note, it does not mean you are -wrong- if you don't agree with me. You have your own opinions which are perfectly acceptable because they are yours and you listen to what your preference tells you to listen to. After all, everyone is different so why should one person dictate other's preferences ? Also I find it refreshing that you have an open mind and ask and want to try.

I have listened to quite a number of pretty expensive valve or even SET amps driving sensitive speakers before, e.g. the JBL 5xxx series driven by a pair of SET monoblocs. Nevertheless, I too am very willing to listen to more modern 'interpretations'. So far, speakers like the Odeon No 36 or 38 still requires a lot of power to bring out the best in them. Also, all of my friends do not feel SET amps deliver the proper scale that they want, so amongst my circle of closest friends, none of them uses SET amp. Actually I am one of the few with valve amps though there are other more intricate details of why I have ARC amps, that at the moment I prefer to keep private.

I have not yet have the good fortune to hear SET/horn or super sensitive speaker system that blows my mind yet. However, I am not willing to believe there is none. In time I hope to have the opportunity and then I will be very happy to share my experience with whoever are interested to listen and to discuss. When that time comes.

I do think that u all have misconcept, if u talk about big hi sensitive Sp like 15" compare to those low sensitive Sp with 8"? 10"? Or even 12"? Which 1 move more air? The volume move by a 15" driver is much more than a 8" driver . With 1 w in 1 meter a 15" hi sensitive Sp may give u 104db for klipsch Conner horn but for normal Sp only give u 89db.

Hi sensitive Sp like altec, use to be Sp for cinema. They can have 110db, can they go loud? Hi sensitivity also means the Sp is highly sensitive to the up stream, they can have much more detail n dynamic than normal Sp if the up stream is in hi quality. Also meaning that amp up stream need to be very fast, very quite. But normal set in our market might not be able to do the job, that why many may disagree with me bcos u have not come across such an amp.

However, I disagree with our friend that 8w ( should be a 300b amp ) can drive a pair of klipsch Conner horn to it's max. I would say our friend use a wrong amp. He should have use a hi quality 3.5w 2a3 amp to drive the Conner horn, then only the bass will go much lower n deeper. The piano note also can be very accurate like no other system.

The odean speaker is not a full horn loaded bass unit speaker. The bass driver is not horn loaded . If I m not wrong it's in bass reflex. The bass reflex is using a tuning port to boust the bass in the tuning frequency area. So the odean is different.

I think you have 'stuck' yourself too much with the speaker. You need to look beyond the speaker and into the actual sound itself. The speaker is only a mechanical device to produce the sound. The sound itself is the end-result.

The issue I think I can see is that you have taken just 1 parameter - sensitivity and then making large extrapolations with it, ignoring 1) other parameters e.g. speaker imepdance. 2) physical laws and real-life limitations.

Take for e.g. you say cinema speakers have 110dB. If we just google a bit, we can see that a jet engine produces around 110dB at 100m distance. Most of us have heard a jet engine before (at the airport which is actually from greater than 100m distance ). Do you seriously believe you can run a small wattage amp into a high sensitivity speaker and produce almost the same sound volume as a jet engine ? That is the question here.

A symphony orchestra is huge. It comprises many tens of musicians with as many musical instrument. That packs a huge amount of energy. 8watts or even 3.5 watts can produce the same amount of sound as a symphony orchestra ? That is one question we need to understand. Perhaps it can - if we want the same experience as sitting way way in the back of a very big concert hall.

Furthermore, this thing about taking just 1 parameter - sensitivity and then making extrapolations from it is too prone to error. It is similar to taking just the max power rating of an engine and then making wild assumptions about it. Take for e.g. a superbike engine. A 1.1litre superbike engine produces in excess of 110hp. The 1st generation Honda Jazz for e.g. uses a 110hp engine (or even 90hp engine for the i-DSI version). Can we simply say we put the superbike engine into a Jazz and it will move as fast as a superbike ? Actually we do that and the superbike engine won't be able to move the Jazz from standstill. Because its torque/power delivery is very different.

This is similar to taking the sensitivity equation too far and that too can also lead to lots of wrong assumptions. Some people say that the top speed of a car is merely controlled by the gear ratio. I have heard people argue that to make their car go 260kph, they simply have to change their 5th or 6th gear to the correct ratio. Is that true ? Can we put a very tall gear into the gearbox of a Kancil and make it go 260kph ? Of course not, because there are other factors, parameters and physical laws that comes into play, at the minimum, air resistance which doubles for each unit increase in speed.

For speaker sensitivity, we also cannot just take the single figure. It's like the case with taking the 'nominal impedance of 6ohms' for some speakers and then assume it is always constant at 6ohms. And we know most speakers are not. Sensitivity will vary according to frequency and probably according to final sound level (or input power). Similarly impedance will have influence on the ability of the amp to exploit the rated sensitivity. And lots of other factors that I am not even qualified to talk about.

To me, what I think is :

A horn speaker is one type of speaker which can give very good sound. A low wattage SET amp is one type of amp which can give very good sound. But there are a lot of alternatives which can give very good sound as well, some maybe even better sound when played over a wider range of playing conditions or requirements. There is a reason why manufacturers diverted to lots of speaker types like ribbons, electrostatics, transmission line, etc. Just like there are reasons why manufacturers diverted to solid state, normal valve, hybrids, even passive and non passive preamps. The fact that there are lots of people who chose each alternative and lots of very happy owners shows that every choice is different and has their own advantage and strengths. But more importantly is that each choice still have to work within the physical laws that governs the whole universe.l

noodle88 wrote:I do think that u all have misconcept, if u talk about big hi sensitive Sp like 15" compare to those low sensitive Sp with 8"? 10"? Or even 12"? Which 1 move more air? The volume move by a 15" driver is much more than a 8" driver .

There is a SERIOUS FLAW in the reasoning above. And here's why:

FACT No.1 : Woofer Efficiency.
In woofer design & selection, there is a parameter called "Energy Transfer Function". Given a comparison of a 15" driver with a 12" driver from the same range, same manufacturer of the speaker cone, the 15" woofer will ALWAYS require more power to move the same amount of AIR compared to the 12" woofer. This is because TRANSDUCERS are inherently INEFFICIENT devices, and it is only logical that a 15" woofer has a lower E.T. Efficiency than a 12" woofer due to the following energy losses:
- Higher INERTIAL MASS on the Cones,
- Greater Conical FLEX. The larger the cone, the harder is it to maintain rigidity. And the more the cone flexes, this means a good deal of the incoming electrical energy is wasted into non-acoustic-generating mechanical (& heat) energy in flexing the cones.
- Greater transfer into Mechanical energy into the Rubber or foam surrounds. The more of the incoming electrical energy is transfered to moving the cone surrounds, the less electrical energy is left available to turn into audible acoustic energy.


So for the given say: 1 WATT of ELECTRICAL energy being sent to the woofer, a 15" woofer is sure to output LESS SOUND (i.e. move less air) than a 12" woofer of the same construction material, same coil winding and physical geometrical design, etc.


A larger woofer's ABILITY to transform ELECTRICAL ENERGY into ACOUSTIC ENERGY (i.e. Efficiency) is always lower than a smaller woofer (given all other design parameters to be equal or as close as possible).
FACT No.1 !!

-------------

Fact No.2: Absolute Transducer Capability,.

The Advantage of a larger woofer is that the ABSOLUTE Amount of AIR that a 15" woofer can move will always be LARGER than a 12" woofer (all else being equal ie construction, materials, windings, etc) of the same family. It sure as hell would take EVEN MORE POWER to move the larger chunk of air , but given ample supply of power, a 15" Woofer can ultimately MOVE more air than a 12" woofer.

And this brings into play the nature of the acoustic wave to be reproduced.
Lower frequencies would require Larger volumes of air displacement, and this can only be achieved with large panel or large conical drivers. Ultimately, to properly reproduce Low Freqs, there is no escaping the fact that large membranes are required for the task. No one ever designed or dare market an AV subwoofer using 5" drivers and claim it will ever go down to 20Hz; No matter what the box enclosure, port tuning, or whatever tricks that can ever do the 20Hz rumble.

The Lower the Freq. to be reproduced, the Larger the "Displacement Capability" of the Woofer needs to be. And Given the volume of displacemet of a pistonic motion cone is PI x Radius(^2) x Motion-Throw. It makes better design & economic sense to use larger X-sectional areas than to make a cone that can do metre-long excursions.

A Larger Woofer can ultimately move more air than a smaller woofer, but it will require MUCH more power due to its poorer electrical:acoustic energy transfer ratio.
FACT No.2

-------------

So the given 1 Watt of electrical energy, the 15" CANNOT give more acoustic output than a 12" woofer, until a point of lowering frequencies that the 12" woofer is sonically unable to reproduce the low frequencies due to its physical limitations.

Hence to really get the Low and Deep bass reproduced properly, you need BOTH Larger drivers, and a MORE POWER AMP to deliver the goods.


===================================

Here's one automotive parallel :
A small CC 4-cylinder 2.0L engine will always be more FUEL EFFICIENT than a V6 2.0L engine, as the V6 2.0 would have more frictional losses, reciprocating mass, etc.

However, engineering-physics allows for a V6 engine to easily accommodate around 3.5L of displacement, but its not at all feasible to build a 3.5L motor with only 4 cylinders (it would probably go up to around 2.4L in all practicality). Hence a larger displacement V6 is always capable to pack more Horsepower than a 4-cylinder motor.

noodle88 wrote:
However, I disagree with our friend that 8w ( should be a 300b amp )
can drive a pair of klipsch Conner horn to it's max. I would say our
friend use a wrong amp. He should have use a hi quality 3.5w 2a3 amp to
drive the Conner horn, then only the bass will go much lower n deeper.
The piano note also can be very accurate like no other system.

Hmmm.... kinda sounded like ... if your car is not powerful enough on a 1.6 DOHC engine with RON97, you'd better swap the motor for a 1.3 SOHC engine and pump it with RON95 gas !! ok, mebbe not a good example here.



So, according to the initial explanation from that , just the virtue
of a 15" woofer would give that extra juice created ALL FROM NOTHING!
Either he has just rewritten all the laws of Physics (Congratulations!!! and I presume a Nobel Prize for Physics is in order for that !!! ), or he has
just EXPOSED his ignorance and lack of proper understanding with
regards to the properties of electricity, physics, kinetics/kinematics
and just Nature in general.

But that's ok, this is coming from the same who says that "Hi power = hi distortion".

nyc tube guru talk about tube,power,info..they talk about vintage tube and the morden tube...tube power...small power tube n high power tube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wYTTX8w1DA

when When SF Electa Amator II meets ARC REF2 MKII


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj_-3k3qi4g

When Alto meets ARC REF2 MKII


https://www.youtube.com/user/JBLSovereign#p/a/u/1/xU2f70ZGbJc

Two days ago I bought a pair of 12" 3-way old speakers and hooked up to my existing system.

Putting aside all the Physics, Mechanical and Electrical theories, Thermodynamics, Mechanics of Machines, Fluids Mechanics, Jet Propulsion, Hypersonic and what not and disregard the characteristics of sound produced as compared with my existing speakers, I found that I can play louder and with deeper bass with these 12" speakers.

Good morning, guru foo n guru wong.
Do u all read up any books on speaker building before u all make command?
I think both of u don't know Chinese or Japanese . Have yet look at the Hifi biggest markets, japan, hong kong n china. Go to the net a do a research, see what do those hi end Hifi kaki play with. Ask them, do they know what tannoy westminster is all about. Do u know that, most 15" hi efficency speaker in the world have been bought over by them. R they nuts???

Keep your mind open n not just limit to one.
R u the dealer of krell?(just asking)

Sigh....my post listing the difference between my existing speakers and the 12" speakers was lost in cyberspace.

Here goes, my existing speakers is 2-way 8".

noodle88 wrote:
Keep your mind open n not just limit to one.

Thats right ... don't just limit to ONE. You should be telling yourself that.

Seems that the ONE true amp for you is only a SET Amp and ONE true speaker for you is the Tannoy Westminster.

Just because the Japs like to do Kamikaze suicidal attacks doesn't mean it's the best way to win a battle.

Are they nuts ??? Hell YEAH !!


Is Hong Kong, China or even Japan at the FOREFRONT of Audio Technologies? How much is their R&D Spending in the Audio Industry for all 3 countries combined compared to Europe & America ??

Even your dearest darling Westminsters come from the United Kingdom!

Serious question here, are your ideas coming from any formal technical training background or you're just taking a hodge-podge of half-truisms from reading oriental consumer hifi magazines and journals?

Do you even know what's the definition of a "Watt" of Power" ?

Sad sad...

123_rocketman wrote: I found that I can play louder and with deeper bass with these 12" speakers.

Why not ? Is the 12" speaker the same brand with your older 8" speakers?
Are the cabinet constructions the same???

I could show you a set of Cerwin-Vega! 15" speakers and they would bring down the house with an even smaller powered amp!

What you've just done is compare an apple with an orange here.
Rocketman, re-read my previous explanation. If u want to compare based on CONE SIZE alone, you'd better keep all other variables as close as possible! Basic Engineering practices.

So you are basically saying all the hifi speaker building books are saying high sensitivity speakers like Tannoy Westminster is the best and only speaker to use and everything else is no good ? Basically just which hifi building books are you talking about ? Is it a DIY book for high sensitivity horn speakers ?

Do be careful because you are insulting hundreds, even thousands of highly respected speakers and manufacturers; the BBC engineers, the legendary BBC LS3/5A, Spendor, Harbeth, Naim, Quad ESL, Magneplannar, Apogee, Infiniti, Magico, Thiel, Wilson Audio, and countless others.

I am not sure how many HongKong audiophiles you know. The ones I know and have met, they all play speakers like Wilson Audio Grand-Slam, Cellos, Soulutions, and so forth. Unfortunately, I guess, none of them have good enough taste to use a Tannoy Westminster with a low powered SET amp and call it 'state of the art'.

I think this is all I will have to say on the topic. Like I said, the combination you talk about can give good sound but it won't be able to cater to a very wide range of music. Furthermore, it won't be able to take on the best of the high-end components.

If one is on a budget, like me or everyone else here (I assume there are no Bill Gates type here ), then it is perfectly wise choice to settle for high sensitivity speakers driven by low powered SET amps, as long as the music choice is amicable to the combination. The sound, or at least those I have listened to, can be very nice, warmth with lots of glow, not entirely accurate but very sweet sounding, not very high resolution but one tends to forgive the faults because of the wonderfully pleasing sound. So relaxing and enjoyable, I myself often asks "what's the point in spending money on higher end systems ?".

However, when one's musical taste is not compatible, or when one desires a better perhaps more accurate sound, then other choices gives equally if not better sound. For classical music like large scale symphonic orchestras (NOT chamber music for e.g.), then other choices like even a good integrated amp like Exposure and good speakers like Harbeth, etc, they gives VERY GOOD sound as well. In fact, if one wants accurate sound, they might even be able to best that SET/hi-sensitivity speaker set-up.

FWIW, the Tannoy Westminster will give a fairly high-end sound so paired with a good SET amp, at least the system I have heard can lead one to actually believe it is the state of the art. But in reality, it has flaws which other systems can better easily. One just needs to be open-minded. And if one is looking for a new component, also a lot of logical reasoning and to understand his/her own requirements and preferences is very important.

i do not understand what is the physics or electronic theory behind.

I usually didnt play my speaker very loud. My amplifier volume knob usually turn to 9 to 10 o'clock position and thats the level of desibel i like.

For me, dynamic is not equal to loudness. despite only 14w with low sensitivity sp like SHL5, my speaker can play very loud, louder than the level i can tolerate. Despite the loudness and noise, i just feel that sound produced by my set is liveless. the bass is so boomy that my window and coffee table glass vibrating together with the music. what i want is a deep taut bass (doesnt mean a lot of bass) that doesnt interfere with musics.

i think is quite hard to tell whether an amp (esp valve amp) can drive a speaker well without trying them. i have heard few different amp with same or smaller wattage rating (40w) but sound livelier and more dynamic compare to those rated higher wattage driving the same speaker. (audition between naim nait 5i ?40or50w vs marantz pm7200 100w)

Everyone have his own opinion or preferance. so guys pls cool down. no point quarreling here. As long as you are happy with your own set than ok lo.

noodle88 wrote:Good morning, guru foo n guru wong.
I think both of u don't know Chinese or Japanese .

私はラーメンを食べたい！

我想吃面！

lol

My style is I will just say whatever I experienced but it is up to the other party to listen or not to listen. If he/she listens and wants to discuss, I will be happy to oblige. But if not, then it is fine.

For your case, (lamkochai), you need to be aware of the fact that power rating is, like the case with speaker sensitivity, just ONE aspect or parameter of an amplifier and that it does NOT tell the whole story. The most famous analogy given is usually that of mini-compos. How many of them are rated 200W or 400W. Some are even rated 1,000W PMPO. But they are just using ONE parameter and trying to ignore others.

Low(er) wattage amps with good driving capability (high current, high damping, etc) can often drive more demanding speakers than more 'macho' (so-called bigger powered) amps which doesn't have the driving ability (I am not sure exactly what technical term is used to explain this 'driving ability').

For e.g. in one case many years ago, one guy had Thiel CS7. He drove it using Krell MDA-300 monobloc but was ultimately not completely satisfied. So he changed to Krell KAS. We then found out the KAS was rated at 'only' 260W. Wow was the owner concerned. But the sound from the KAS, needless to say was so exquisite we all KNEW he made the right choice the second the system started playing. One of the biggest improvement was in CONTROL of the bass. There were no overhang, no boom, and the bass was superbly punchy and very tight. If one has heard a LIVE drum, then that system reproduced almost life-like drums in the listening room. So in this case, the KAS was lower powered than the MDA-300 but it sounded so much better. The main difference was how much better the KAS was able to drive and CONTROL the Thiels. So just simple power rating alone is sometimes not enough.

I know, hi-fi can be a very confusing topic because it is electronics. Often with an elementary knowledge of electronics, one can be mistaken into thinking one knows everything. But that is not the case. I have since learnt that. Eventhough I have studied electronics as part of my elective in university, I have been englightend - taught by experience, that real life is always so much more complicated. Best is to always expect the unexpected and be open minded.

You should bring your speakers to the dealers and audition the amp of your choice. I think nowadays very few dealers allows home demo already. That's what one forumer (who wishes to keep confidentiality) up north did recently. He carted his amp over to the dealer to audition it with the speakers he wanted to buy.

totally agree with you. i wish i can do so.

tycham wrote:

noodle88 wrote:Good morning, guru foo n guru wong.
I think both of u don't know Chinese or Japanese .

私はラーメンを食べたい！

我想吃面！

hahaha , i just had noodles for lunch !!

Well, in this day and age, one does not need to know any foreign languages. One just needs to know a little creature called Babelfish.

酸性中国のヌードルたいそう。 私は日本のヌードルを好む。

WongKN wrote:
Low(er) wattage amps with good driving capability (high current, high damping, etc) can often drive more demanding speakers than more 'macho' (so-called bigger powered) amps which doesn't have the driving ability (I am not sure exactly what technical term is used to explain this 'driving ability').

I have demystified this before here:

https://www.hifi4sale.net/equipment-discussions-f6/upgrade-audio-equipment-t1706-50.htm

Spoiler:

... which also relates back to "Damping factor". And this is the main factor as to why some amp/speaker combos have a bass-boom problem, or if its in the high freq region, terrible sibilance and ringing (although some people actually like this and mistook it as being "airier" and "warmer" sounding).

Spoiler:

Mebbe someone can help translate all these into Japanese for noodle88's benefit since he *might* have some serious problems comprehending all these in plain english and simple mathematics.

bimmerman wrote:Well, in this day and age, one does not need to know any foreign languages. One just needs to know a little creature called Babelfish.

酸性中国のヌードルたいそう。 私は日本のヌードルを好む。

Did u take the pH value & quantify how acidic is it ???

To all forumers,
those who think my post on hi sensitivety Sp with set is no true pls don't boader my words.
Those who not 100% sure I m wrong, pls prove to me that I m wrong. Go n audition system that have good set amp match with hi sensitive speaker. Pls proof me wrong n let me audit the system, I can also bring my amp to compare. Pls let me know weather my 300b n Westminster is a bad combination or not.

Who know I will sell my amp to u (mugenfoo) at rm50??

Let me know if I m wrong!!!!
Let me audition how bad set amp driving hi efficiency Sp is!!
Let me know yah !!

noodle88 wrote:

Who know I will sell my amp to u (mugenfoo) at rm50??

No lah, although i know i am damn nasty at what i think are your silly-ass comments and even stupider reasonings, i just don't have the heart to take advantage of you by buying your very hi-disortion-sounding (in your opinion of course) Conrad-Johnson Premier 11a for only RM50.

My offer still stands at RM500. But not RM10,000 lah, becoz since u mentioned that your SET rig is 10x more than the value of the CJ, so it would make your SET system worth Rm100K already!

Ok Ok lah! .... RM800.! Pao-Kar-Liao! Best offer !

I think I can see some emotions coming into play in this thread already. So personally for me, I shall not participate in that part of this thread anymore. I would like to stick to the actual topic of this thread. Helping lamkochai solve his problem.

For @lamkochai's "dilemma", it seems almost all the participants here are unanimous that the best route would be to keep the Harbeths, and go hunt for a "more suitable" amp instead.

'Nuff said.

ada sapa2 nampak kunci kete aku tak? damnnn..

why does SET amps cost so much if its not that 'great'?

123_rocketman wrote:Sigh....my post listing the difference between my existing speakers and the 12" speakers was lost in cyberspace.

Here goes, my existing speakers is 2-way 8".

No worries man... I believe you for sure...I moved from a 2 way HArbeth 8 to a 12, BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG difference....

And thats not adding any more WATTS....

dixchen wrote:

123_rocketman wrote:Sigh....my post listing the difference between my existing speakers and the 12" speakers was lost in cyberspace.

Here goes, my existing speakers is 2-way 8".

No worries man... I believe you for sure...I moved from a 2 way HArbeth 8 to a 12, BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG difference....

And thats not adding any more WATTS....

Who knows? Maybe you moved from a 87dB Harbeth bookshelves to a pair of 95dB Cerwin-Vega! (aka BOOMY BOOM BOOM) speakers ?

Cerwin-Vega!, the LOUD Speaker company (r)

http://www.cerwin-vega.com/