Feedback: Krell KAV-300i integrated amp

[kolabear]

any feedback or opinion on this amp? especially from krell owners. thanks

[bimmerman]

Sorry it's taken so long for anyone to respond to your query. I just got this amp 3 months back and have only gotten the right balance with it.

This amp gives me the impression that it's actually a very powerful car amp with a beefy transformer to provide the 12v juice. It's powerful, unruly even, with big big thumping bass and rather harsh high end. In short, like a rough and tough car amp that you can build yourself. Get a nice casing, put in a car 300Watt car amp and power inverter and Partner these with Cervin Vega, or JBL and the likes and you have a Def Leppard concert!!!

But all this unruly brutal power can be put to good use if you can find the right ancillaries to tame it. I use the KAV300i with my Sonus Faber Minima Amator with it's slightly laid back character and it helps. But this is not enough, i have to plug in some Telos Caps into the unused XLR and RCA jacks and this dampens out some harshness and darkens the canvas further. Next I invested in Transparent Musicwave speaker cables which have magical smoothing effects. Don't forget a nutral sounding power cord like furutech or check out Wireworld Stratus 5 Squared with power conditioning properties and you have an almost valve sounding setup with bass response you can't get from any valve setup.


The KAV300i and Minima Amator - I'm hooked!!!

[kkthen]

hello bimmermen:

My friend say your system sound wonderful, I hope i can audit your system one day.

[bimmerman]

hello bimmermen:

My friend say your system sound wonderful, I hope i can audit your system one day.

Hi Kkthen,

How did you manage to spot this tread out of the thousands here? Were you searching for Krell and found this by chance?

Anyway, you can tell your friend he's a genius. He made a Minima Amator sound almost electrostatic. Now my next investment would be to get a proper house to 'house' all this great sound and maybe start a small Sonus Faber museum. This is going to take a while though as i'm seriously broke!

[mugenfoo]

clinical it may be, but the KAV-300i certainly is not harsh or rough. It borrows on the trademark of Krell pre-amps that they are actually very neutral, and therefore unforgiving to poor front-end sources. Garbage in, garbage out.

For an integrated amp, the KAV-300i in its heydays would be considered "best in class", besting alot of other pre-power combos costing more than the KAV.

Best if the front-end can supply a true balanced-output into the KAV.

It's bass and punch dynamics delivery would a sneak preview of whats in store from hallmark Krell-type of sound.

[Cremona]

Hi all. Please correct me if i'm wrong, mugenfoo, i think we need to clarify if kolabear is asking about the new krell s300i or the old 300i of yesteryear? Off topic, If its me, i would go for the old 400xi over the new s300i thats now made in China. Greedy Mfg. Not much saving for the end user if you compared the difference in price of the 400xi to the new s300i. Fyi, Norman Audio still had a NOS of 400xi a few weeks ago. Cheers

[mugenfoo]

the topic title is written KAV-300i right ?

The new S300i is just "S300i" .. no "KAV-XXXX"

http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/809/index.html

[bimmerman]

Hi Mugen,

Yup, in the original subject line Krell KAV-300i.

Your comments about the KAV-300i being clinical is quite true. But perhaps I perceive it as being harsh because in it's old age it getting rather noisy. Picking up RF junk through it's coroded rca jacks. Polishing them to their former glory and capping those jacks helps a great deal.

Finally mating it with my Cary CD300 Valve CD player transforms the sound! As you said, garbage in garbage out. In this case 12AU7 in 12AU7 out. Magical!!!

[mugenfoo]

yeah, the KAV-300i served me tirelessly for more than 10 years, recently decommissioned and placed on "strategic reserve".

Even pairing it with Minima, Electa and the XXX-Amator variants do not reveal the full extent of what the KAV-300i can deliver in the bass department.

The Extrema would be just about overly exceeding on what the KAV-300i could handle.

Something in-between (Sonus or otherwise) would make a befitting partner with the KAV-300i.

[bimmerman]

So you're a Macross fan huh? In the 1980s had one of those F16 looking fighter jet thingies that transformed into a robot and did it so much more elegantly than those Transformers robots they sell these days.

So the Extremas would be too much for the KAV-300i you reckon? I've heard a KAV-400xi doing the Extremas and it did seem like a rather light handed performance. Bass sounded lacking and thin. Everything else was only ok. Maybe it's what the new fangled Krell integrateds have become? Too gentle?

Sonus Faber recommends that the Minima Amator be placed at least 3 feet from the back wall but due to lack of space, mine are at 2 feet. With some tweaks from Telos i'm able to get floorstander bass without the boom while preserving imaging. Things might be better still if I followed the 3 feet rule but it's not half bad. Bass is well extended to what sounds like 30-40hz and with much aplomb.

Maybe Wilson Watt is required to fully unleash that kind of bass you're talking about?

[mugenfoo]

its based on an F-14 actually, variable sweep wing geometry.
If u still got that toy, its worth alot of money on e-bay i reckon.



Back to Krells... yes, KAV 300 / 400 would be hard-pressed to drive the Extrema. Maybe the KAV 500i can, i dunno.
I think maybe the Gunaeri would be just about right for the Krell KAV300/400 line. I always have this idea that Gunaeris are easier to drive than Extremas....


But the Wilson Watt would require a different kind of monster altogether, Perhaps at least a KSA-series power amp or better.

Anyway, I always remembered the macho looking Krells to be the grey squarish ones, since the KST, to the KSAs to the 1st series FPBs.

The new Krells in silver and the rounded edges, really don't look manly and macho at all. But sure will score better SAF (spouse acceptance factor) points. More pussified-looking like a Jeff Rowland.


My favourite Krell (based on aesthetics) must be the KAS / KAS2 monoblocks ... they look like spaceships !! I really like the big VU meter screen in front and the flared side heatsinks. This is one mean MoFo !

[car o scope]

Chat with mugenfoo that day and found out that there are few versions of KAV-300i, I went on the search for them and I found 3.

Just to share the info..
Please post the pic if you found another version.









(Pics courtesy of echoloft)

[mugenfoo]

the last Silver one is not a 300i but it is a 300iL.


the KAV-300i itself had 3 sub-variants. The first one as shown in the 1st pict, and it has a "KAV" logo. 2nd and 3rd Gens have the "Krell Transistor" logo, but motherboard layout is different. Placement of the Toroidal is different.

1st gen came with a metal box remote.
2nd gen came with a curvy longish "Made in Korea" remote.
3rd gen came with the "credit-card" style remote.

[chua55]

can I know the technology behind this sharp shooter? What sort of feedback it employs, deep and long.

Is it powerful enough to drive some difficult speakers such as dyna or ATC.

[mugenfoo]

it uses very minimal negative feedback. Its output impedance was measured by Stereophile lab tests to be around 0.3 Ohms. Quite high bandwidth design, going up to 40+KHz within -3dB passband.

It uses proprietary Motorola power transistors just like its bigger brethen.
(Guarantee you that you sure cannot go Jln Pasar / Farnell / RS to buy a replacement transistor found in this Krell or any other Krell).

Plus the usual Krell manufacturing goodies like matched components, massive power reserves, etc etc... but much less than the usual Krell monsters coz its only got so much space in its integrated chassis.


How "difficult" is the Dyna or ATC ? The only way to know is to try n hear.


Lets put it this way, the KAV-300i will NOT properly drive the Wilson Audio Grand Slam, Sonus faber Extrema, Apogee Studio Grand, Duntech Sovereign, Maggie MG20 and the likes.

[mugenfoo]

that being said, this little dynamite would knock the socks off other integrated in its class like the Jeff Rowland Concentra.

All other "normal" integrated amps like Audiolab, Holfi, Cyrus, etc etc are nowhere near the Krell kAV-300i's league.

[bimmerman]

Mugen, Need your help here. I don't know what generation is mine. I have the credit card type remote but my Krell logo is the Krell transistor. The placement of the torroidal is at the centre. As I understand the 3rd generation has the torroidal placed far left of the chassis, behind the power button. Do I have the 2nd generation with 3rd generation remote? What are the sonic differences between generations would you know? I hear the 300iL knocks the socks off the 400iX. Is that true?

[ryder]

It all depends on system matching. The KAV-300i when paired with forgiving and laidback speakers like Sonus Fabers would be a great match but would sound raw, harsh and unrefined when paired with more neutral and revealing speakers. The "Garbage in garbage out" phrase doesn't quite apply with the amp as it still sounds pretty clinical and harsh with good ancillaries. I have compared the KAV-300i with YBA Integre and my Plinius/ARC separates and the shortcomings of the KAV-300i are exposed compared to the other two amps which are more musical and refined. Speakers that were matched with the amps at that time were Sonus faber Grand Piano and B&W N805.

The 400XI is a much more balanced and refined amp minus the harshness of the 300i. However, if matched properly the KAV-300i can be a gem.

[car o scope]

Considering the age of the KAV-300i, I would say they are very good at that time. And till today, they are still very good. Of course, some newer models might have caught up or better the KAV-300i.

[mugenfoo]

Mugen, Need your help here. I don't know what generation is mine. I have the credit card type remote but my Krell logo is the Krell transistor. The placement of the torroidal is at the centre. As I understand the 3rd generation has the torroidal placed far left of the chassis, behind the power button. Do I have the 2nd generation with 3rd generation remote? What are the sonic differences between generations would you know? I hear the 300iL knocks the socks off the 400iX. Is that true?

yes yours should be the 2nd gen 300i. I would presume the 3rd Gen would sound the "cleanest" coz there must be a reason why Krell relocated the Toroidal away from the centre. The diff between 1st Gen and 2nd Gen is just the way they screwed the power transistors to the heatsinks for easier manufacturing (so i was told by the then Krell agent in Malaysia). And the faceplate-change from the KAV logo to the Krell-transistor logo.

http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/809/index.html
(pictured at the stereophile website is the 2nd Gen with the plasticky curvy "made in Korea" remote)


Not sure if the 300iL will "knock the socks" off 400xi or not until someone does a A-B test.

[mugenfoo]

It all depends on system matching. The KAV-300i when paired with forgiving and laidback speakers like Sonus Fabers would be a great match but would sound raw, harsh and unrefined when paired with more neutral and revealing speakers. The "Garbage in garbage out" phrase doesn't quite apply with the amp as it still sounds pretty clinical and harsh with good ancillaries. I have compared the KAV-300i with YBA Integre and my Plinius/ARC separates and the shortcomings of the KAV-300i are exposed compared to the other two amps which are more musical and refined. Speakers that were matched with the amps at that time were Sonus faber Grand Piano and B&W N805.

The 400XI is a much more balanced and refined amp minus the harshness of the 300i. However, if matched properly the KAV-300i can be a gem.

Incidently, i once had someone bring over a YBA Integre to go head-on with the KAV-300i at my place.
Front end is a Theta/Wadia Transport/DAC combo, and the speakers are a pair of floorstanding Apogees.

At low volume levels, the YBA sounded much "airier" than the Krell on some light jazz and vocal pieces.

But when a live pice like Nirvana Unplugged in NY, Dire Straits and the like was played and when volume was cranked up, the YBA started clipping esp in the mids and highs (maybe the ribbons were too demanding on the YBA). In the bass department, it was a no-contest.

I suppose the comparison between the YBA Integre vs. the KAV-300i is like a nice BMW E60 530i against an Entry level Ferarri F355. The BMW sure gives a comfy ride like a whoosh-mobile and ample horses from its 3litre powerpack. But when pushed hard, the F355 will leave smoke trails in the BMW's face.

[azri]

oh.. pls dont compare bmw with ferrari,
it does not reflects any justice even at entry levels

heres some infos on 300iL :

1. Beyond the new chassis and cosmetics, the most obvious enhancement is the amplifier's power output, which has been increased from 150 to 200 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms, and from 300 to 400 Watts per channel into 4 ohms.

2. Less obvious are numerous improvements in circuit topology that result in an even higher level of sonic performance.

3. Preamplifier section features Krell's latest Class A direct-coupled design wherein the entire signal path from input to output is fully balanced, a most-desireable topology usually reserved for cost-no-object designs.

4. Volume control is implemented via matched, precision resistors for each phase.

5. Preamp circuits are powered by a dedicated supply with discrete voltage regulators.

6. Digital control circuits are powered by a dedicated power supply.

7. Signal switching is implemented via hermetically sealed multiple-contact precision relays.

8. Power amplifier section employs transistors developed exclusively for Krell (4-drivers & 8-outputs per ch), delivering enormous output current capability with enhanced sound quality and reliability.

9. Voltage gain stages employ Krell Current-Mode, discrete, Class A, direct-coupled, complementary circuitry.

10. Power supply features a massive 800VA toroidal transformer with 55,000 microfarads of filter capacitance to ensure the huge power reserves necessary for extended and powerful low-frequency reproduction.

11. Extensive power supply filtering and decoupling between stages provide high stability with low noise.

12. Balanced and single-ended inputs are provided for compatibility with all source components.

13. Krell's Theater Throughput mode simplifies integration into home theater systems.

i am not sure (except no. 1) which of the above mentioned were upgrades from the previous make.

[chua55]

this is technology at works. this is no class A baby.

[car o scope]

I have a feeling that the strong output from the Krell is the advantage.

Since there are 3 versions of KAV-300i, there are not much info that can be found in Krell website. Wish they can record them in the archive. After all, they are some good products.

The KAV-300iL, I believe, is the transition of KAV-300i to KAV-400xi.

They dont have different versions for the KAV-300iL and KAV-400xi, right?

[azri]

what is the characteristic of class A design?
any example on make & model?

[chua55]

pure class A design is very hot (bad for the trees), very heavy (try lifting a krell and pass lab X ) and very low distortion.

e.g. pass Firstwatt 25W class A can barely allows touching for 5 seconds (despite the heat sink), 1.2m F rectified by twin bridge and a transformer of 320VA. now, make it 100W class A and see what happens.

[mugenfoo]

what is the characteristic of class A design?
any example on make & model?

Bimmers and the Prancing horse.. why not?
Just an analogy dude.

I think the Krell integrated amps use class-A in its pre-amp stages. Even the KAV-300i (remember reading it somewhere before, nut i lazy to dig up the old manual now).

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-power-amplifiers/integrated-amplifiers/krell-kav-300i-integrated-amplifier.html


BTW, the old KAV-300i only has a 400VA toroidal, dunno whats the capacitance bank. While the the current model s300i has a massive 750VA toroidal, 38000uF .

KAV-400xi has a 800VA toroidal with 55000uF capacitance bank.
Not sure if they have any revisions to it in it's lifecycle. But who cares, a KAV is a KAV


And as how they are priced. I would say the KAV-400xi would be the top of the lot for "affordable" Krell Integrateds. This means excluding the Krell-FBI as its a different monster altogether.

Too bad Krell discontinued the KAV-400xi and replaced it with a China-made s300i. But heck, if you're were born after the era of Doraemon, Transformers (yes, its a cartoon series with no "Megan Fox" hot chick as a central theme) & M.A.S.K. cartoon series.... the s300i with its iPod connectivity is a very welcome feature in today's hi-tech gizmo loaded homes. Besides, the s300i is priced LOWER than the 400xi, new price vs new price per se. You gets what yous pays for.



@azri
Back to your question about Class-A. Class-A is just a type of power amplification design in which the transistors are "biased" to handle toe full swing of an AC signal. Very good amplification quality, very poor efficiency.

As opposed to a Class-B design where a pair of transistors would be used, in which one half will amplify the positive swing of an AC signal, while the other half (aka complementary) amplifies the negative swing portion of an AC signal.
U can read about it more in wikipedia or any hobbyist electronics handbook.

Examples of other famous class-A amps would be the Musical Fidelity A1 & A1000 amps.
They got so notoriously hot that u could literally fry an egg on top of its chassis at full swing.

Of course's Krell pre/power amps outside of the KAV series are all pure class-A behemoths (KSL, KRC, KCT, KST, KSA, FPB, KAS series amps).

[hoyhoysum]

Hi, what is the used market price for Krell Kav300 and Kav400?

[mugenfoo]

Take a look at the For-Sale section.

[mugenfoo]

actually, the 400xi seems like a 300iL but with a round volume control instead of the volume buttons. Personally i much prefer the volume knob as its more user-friendly.

Everything else looks the same and even the features like Class-A pre amp stages, Current Mode topology, fully complementary shindig, etc etc etc


Anyone ever had a chance to do an A-B test between a 300iL and a 400xi ?

[bimmerman]

Hi, what is the used market price for Krell Kav300 and Kav400?

There has been no KAV-300i for sale for quite a while now. Market price for a used KAV-300i should be around RM3500-4000 but nobody is selling.

If you take a drive across the border into Singapore, they have some for sale but be prepared to pay RM4800 to RM5000 upwards depending on their mood and the current weak ringgit. I also found a silver 300iL but they quoted me S$2800 for it. That's just a little shy of RM7,000.

There's just no supply so the sellers can demand.

[ryder]

I concur with Bimmerman. I was looking at the KAV-300i 5 years ago and my Singaporean friend informed the market price was about RM3.6-4k(plus RM300 commision for his help). At that time the exchange rate was a low 2.1 so that helps a bit. Add RM1k for dealer's price.

There was a demo KAV-400XI selling at RM7.5k 3 years back. I have not seen a used unit in the ads here though.

[bimmerman]

what is the characteristic of class A design?
any example on make & model?

Bimmers and the Prancing horse.. why not?
Just an analogy dude.

My apologies in advance folks as i'm going to be out of topic here.

Hey Mugenfoo, there was once this certain M division E60 with a V10 engine that thrashed a certain Prancing Horse 360 Modena on a closed road circuit somewhere in Europe. I think it was a top gear of fifth gear feature. I can't remember. But the Ferrari was beaten by the Bimmer big time.

But I do think car analogies apply even to Hifi. The KAV-300i is a little bit of a sleeper amp. Unassuming like an old E34 (no, not the valves but the car). You never know what's lurking under the hood. The old KAV-300i still has something lurking inside waiting to be unleashed and I met someone on this website who helped me tame and unleash it. As I said before, the kind of sound i'm getting with my KAV-300i is like EL34 valves but with speed and solid bass beyond what valves can offer. I know because I once had Cary SLM70 EL34 valve monoblocks pumping out 80 Watts of valve power each and today my Krell sounds better than the Cary. Must be heard to truely believe what i'm saying. I never did believe in HiFi tweaks, it's voodoo stuff to me and my mind is still skeptical but my ears tell me otherwise.

[bimmerman]

Oh, and as for the garbage in, garbage out adage not applying to the KAV-300i, Well, yes and no. No if it's just a KAV-300i then no.

But KAV-300i with some under RM200 tweaks, Yes! Yes! and a resounding Yes! You betcha yes!!! And if I stand accused of trying to sell snake oil then sorry, i'm not selling anything and you definately can't buy my KAV-300i off me. Not even swap it for a 400ix.

[mugenfoo]

hi hi ... glad someones likes hi-fi & cars too..

Anyway the E60 M5 is certainly a different monster of its own (but it got whooped by the F430 in another Top-Gear video , "Heaven & Hell" i think)

So .. back to Krell Amps... yes, the KAV-300i actually belongs to the "older school" of Krell designs. It being in the generation of the KST, MDA & the "no holds barred" KAS series of amps...

I mean c'mon... take the KAS for example. Krell doesn't even give it any Power rating !!! Krell says that the KAS will deliver whatever your house electrical socket will deliver from the wall.

BTW, KAS = Krell Audio Standard.

After the KAS, Krell built the MRA which is just like a one-off Enzo Ferrari. It probably doesn't qualify as a production series.

No one else builds amps like Krell does.

[mugenfoo]

Oh, and as for the garbage in, garbage out adage not applying to the KAV-300i, Well, yes and no. No if it's just a KAV-300i then no.

But KAV-300i with some under RM200 tweaks, Yes! Yes! and a resounding Yes! You betcha yes!!! And if I stand accused of trying to sell snake oil then sorry, i'm not selling anything and you definately can't buy my KAV-300i off me. Not even swap it for a 400ix.

yup, not selling mine either..
Unless someone wants to pay like RM20K for it.. hahahahahaha

[car o scope]

Such a high value for a used unit in the market is certainly worrying for people who have not own a Krell like me..

[ryder]

Car o scope, there are many used KAV-300i units in the SIngaporean market as several dealers are selling them. They go for around S$1.8k-2k which is less than RM5k.

[bimmerman]

Hey Mugen, there was a Youtube video of a plain jane looking E34 that outdragged a Ferrari 430 sometime back. In this day and age anything goes huh?

Ok, sorry again for this car distraction but I have a genuine Krell question to ask. How does a Krell compare with an equivalent Mark Levinson? Who makes better high end amplification?

[car o scope]

Car o scope, there are many used KAV-300i units in the SIngaporean market as several dealers are selling them. They go for around S$1.8k-2k which is less than RM5k.

Yup. I saw them in echoloft.
The problem is how to bring them back.
Later, kena charge high tax, I pengsan oh..

[ryder]

You can either ship the stuff back via Fedex or ask someone to bring them back. I have shipped big heavy items from used hifi dealers in Singapore before and they are not taxed by the customs. If someone is bringing back across the border, either you pay a little tax or don't need to at all depending on luck.

Cheers.

[kolabear]

hi everyone. thx for all the useful inputs on the krell kav-300i. sorry for late reply but i was busy with work. never thought i will have any response on this topic after so long. thanks bimmerman for initializing the response. you have a great set up there.

[mugenfoo]

@Kolabear, what speakers do u have in mind to be powered by the KAV-300i ?

[mugenfoo]

Welcome all to share their listening experiences with Krell equipment...

Any Evolution owners here in this forum?

[tycham]

Krell : Leader in audio engineering????

Who's that?

[auronthas]

If not mistaken, that's Krell's slogan.

[bimmerman]

Krell Evolution. Some say sexy but I say scary! This will surely put the average man in a financial bind by raking up a severe electric bill and don't even talk about the cost of procuring one. Unless of course you belong to the millionaire boys club. Or the winning political party at least.

Me, i'll make do with my Krell KAV-300i. The Norman family won't like this but to me, this is the last of the real Krell integrateds and there is no chance i'll ever trade it in for one of those S-300 thingies they're peddling.

[bimmerman]

Hey Mugen, Is the Krell FBI any good?

[kowtim]

Hi

Whilst I may not have anything positive to contribute with regards to the listening experience here, I would like to talk about the safety aspects of using such gear as this in a domestic household with children.

Class A amplifiers with sharp edged heatsinks and hot surfaces can be hazardous to little children.

Likewise, little children can be hazardous to high end amplifiers.

50 cents managed to wipe out at least one Krell. No, not by the hard core rapper, rather by some coins

I was told of this Krell here that got badly damaged when the owners young child managed to easily "slip thru" some coins past the ventilation slots of the case.

Unfortunately, the coin/s fell in the wrong place and shorted it out and the amplifier thus required a complete motherboard to affect a repair caused . The "leaders in audio engineering" you say?.

And so, for those who have young children around, it would be advisable for folks to pay heed to the safety of their children...make sure they can't fall down onto any exposed heat sink edges, get burnt from hot Class A surfaces etc etc.

Likewise, some fancy enclosures offer so little protection to accidental liquid and drink spills etc.... so keep your children away from your prized gear.

And the next time your child asks for a piggy bank, hop in the car and get one immediately....

Regards

[cmboy]

Ooh.. if sharp edges of Class A amps are hazardous, might as well say tube amps would be life threatening to kids and toddlers too, even to unsuspecting adults too. Anyway, I think most audiophiles with these equipment or well set up rigs ain't going to risk having kids lurking around their hifi gear. I've actually yet to witness any hifi session with kids there. No pun intended, just my opinion.

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